Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: tampering with the Vulgate  (Read 1589 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Marlelar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Reputation: +1816/-233
  • Gender: Female
tampering with the Vulgate
« on: May 29, 2017, 10:44:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I had no idea that this started back under Paul 6th.

    changing the Vulgate


    Offline White Wolf

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 170
    • Reputation: +48/-84
    • Gender: Male
    It was Pius XII who publish De Afflanto Spiritu...
    « Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 12:26:09 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Which opened the floodgates for Biblical tampering. :facepalm:

    The current mess started long before Paul came to town.
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!


    Offline BumphreyHogart

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 689
    • Reputation: +226/-662
    • Gender: Male
    Re: It was Pius XII who publish De Afflanto Spiritu...
    « Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 03:14:40 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
  • Which opened the floodgates for Biblical tampering. :facepalm:

    The current mess started long before Paul came to town.

    Your mentality against true popes is very dear to the heretic mind.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Marlelar

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3473
    • Reputation: +1816/-233
    • Gender: Female
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 06:49:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Since Pius 10th had to deal with firmly entrenched modernists in the beginning of the 20th century I guess it only stands to reason that the modernists could be tampering with scripture even back then.

    So which version is the most trustworthy?

    Offline White Wolf

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 170
    • Reputation: +48/-84
    • Gender: Male
    The following might give some insights...
    « Reply #4 on: June 03, 2017, 05:36:42 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  •      The astute reader is probably taken aback by the title to this chapter, for which the author gives no apologies.  The
    even more astute reader might realize that this is a pun on the encyclical, Divino Afflante Spiritu, published September
    30th, 1943.  Alledgedly the work of Pius XII, more likely this was written by Fr Bea, one of his bad advisors and at this
    time the pope's spiritual director.  As we peruse this anthology of rationalism and unhinged scientific hypotheses the reader
    should agree the title of this chapter is well merited.  In the preceding chapters, more than a few barbs have been hurled at
    the notion that Pius XII was an angelic pastor, whose pontificate was as completely removed from that of Good Pope John as
    Judas is from St John the Evangelist.  This chapter, and the ones that follow, will hopefully demolish that notion, and
    convince Traditional Catholics that if they seek real reform, they had better look in the direction of heaven, and not of
    Rome.  Both the hope that Rome will reform itself, and that the pontificates of Pius IX through Pius XII represent some sort
    of golden age of Catholicism to which we need to return, are chimeras that many have been chasing like a wounded camel chases
    mirages in the desert, only to be disappointed many times in succession.
         At this point in time many realize that scripture has been repeatedly attack.  Most Catholics are familier with the

    babble about how we have to seperate the "Jesus of the Gospels" from the "Historical Jesus".  They tell us how the early
    Christian communities conjured the parables of Jesus out of thin air to explain moral problems.  They tell us of the battle
    between the "Pauline" and the "Petrine" schools.  Next thing they say is that Paul did not write his epistles and the gospels
    had several authors before they were redacted and combined.  The gospels, according to these exegetes, need to be
    "demytholized", which basically means omitting many of the miracles our Lord worked as being hoaxes and fabrications.  What
    they do not realize, however, is that this exegetical and synoptic trainwreck occured long before Good Pope John came to
    town.  That will be demonstrated in the lines to follow.
         But first, some background is in order.  Once upon a time, the whole of Christendom accepted the utter, absolute

    inerrancy of scripture, period.  Then Galileo Galilei came to town.  If this man, a respected astronomer, would have limited
    his activities to describing the moons of Jupiter he discovered when observing the gas giant through the newly invented
    telescope, history might be different.  But Galileo decided he must also intrude into the realms of philosophy, theology, and
    metaphysics, and championed the heliocentric theory of Nicolaus Copernicus as opposed to the generally accepted, but
    problematic, geocentric theory of Claudius Ptolemy.  Many of course, have portrayed Galileo as a hero who overthrew the
    scholastic barbarians, and helped usher in the age of science.  The real story is that "heliocentrism" is even more
    problematic than Ptolomy's universe.  Little known is the fact that a studious German astronomer, Tycho Brahe, made many
    careful observations about the same time as Galileo, and developed a geocentric model so accurate it is still used to predict
    solar eclipses and planetary occults.  Unfortunately, Galileo and Copernicus won the battle for public recognition, swayed
    the popes, and forced the Church to needlessly reconsider its stand on biblical inerrancy.  Robert Cardinal Bellarmine in
    particular wanted to seperate 
    "mathmatical processes" from the substance of scripture.  This, in retrospect, proved to be a

    fatal blunder, even though done with the best of intentions of defusing the conflict between Galileo and the Inquisition. 
    Some years later, Sir Isaac Newton unified Leibnez's newly developed differential calculus, his theory of gravity, and the
    Copernican model into a very impressive scientific collosus which stands to this day, despite major experimental difficulties
    too elaborate and involved to expound here.  (Mention will be made of the fact that current astrophysical theory has the
    eartrh in an elliptical orbit, with the sun as one of the foci.  But modern astronomers are completely at a loss in how to
    explain to the layman that a profound influence in the motions of the heavenly bodies is exerted by absolutely, and
    precisely, the other foci, which is nothing.)  Meanwhile, as scripture steadfastly points to an immovable earth in a
    geocentric universe, the first cracks in the foundation of absolute biblical inerrancy began to appear.
         For most of the world, these cracks remained but a few blips on the exegetical radar until the fateful voyage of His

    Majesty's Ship the Beagle, in 1838, with naturalist Charles Darwin abourd.  From a scientific point of view, Darwin
    demonstrated, after all his observations and compilations of records concerning those studies on the Galapagos Islands, that,
    if ten beagles are left stranded with adequate nutrition on a desolate Pacific Island devoid of canines, all the dogs on that
    island fifty years later will pretty much resemble beagles.  Quite a fertile imagination was required to derive from those
    sets of data the postulates of natural selection and the origin of species.   But, needless to say, Darwin's biology, married
    to the sedimentology of Sir Charles Lyell, gave birth to a beast that has been rapaciously shredding traditional exegesis
    ever since the late 19th century.
         This beast was not long in appearing on the Ecclesiastical radar.  But before the reaction of Pius IX and the gang can

    be discussed, a long degression is going to be necessary to equip the reader with the capability to discern the slow slide of
    biblical exegesis into oblivion.  
         When Our Lord Jesus Christ, son of Mary Most Holy, walked this earth, he probably spoke Aramaic, or Hebrew, though we do

    not know for sure.  Certainly he heard, and probably understood, at least enough Latin to discourse with Roman soldiers and
    the aristocracy.  We do know that the gospels were first written in Hebrew, the ancient language of the Jєωs, and Greek, as
    the main thrust of the Apostolic Church was into those lands colonized by Greeks and later conquered and unified by Alexander
    the Great, continuing much as they were when, subsequently, the Romans came to town.  Meanwhile, the Old Testament had been
    translated into Greek, the language of philosophers and scholars of the time, by the Seventy Elders of Alexandria, Egypt,
    having been sponsored by Ptolemy II, a relative of the famous Cleopatra, about the 2nd Century Before Christ.  This was
    quoted extensively in the New Testament, especially by St Paul.  (However, the Apostles also had other sources in Jєωιѕн
    tradition they also quoted.  For example, Mathew writes that "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremias the
    prophet, saying: And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was prized, whom they prized of the
    children of Israel."  But one will look in vain for these words in the book of Jeremiah.  Another example is St James: "When
    Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the
    judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee."  One will look in vain for this incident throughout all the
    pages of the Old Testament.  Exegesis is a complicated affair, folks.)  As can be seen, during the Apostolic Age and for some
    time after scripture was somewhat of a hodge-podge not readily available to the layman (which puts to rest a lot of
    Protestant arguements).  This all changed when St Jerome, a man of singular linguistic talent, came on the scene.  Being
    fluent in the three selfsame languages posted on the inscription above the head of Our Lord on the Cross, namely, Hebrew,
    Greek, and Latin, he spent many years of painstaking research and prayerfully compiled what we know as the Latin Vulgate.  In
    the year 431, about 80 years after St Jerome finished his work, the Council of Ephesus declared 1) that the Vulgate was the
    only authorized and acceptable version of the Holy Scriptures for use in missals and Church correspondance and 2) that only
    those books declared as such were to be considered as absolutely inerrent and the work of the Holy Ghost; other writings of
    the Apostles were extant, but these were relegated to the status of apochrapha.  Scholars especially might derive edification
    from perusing them, but they were not to enjoy the same status as the canonical books.  This can be considered the birthday
    of the bible as we know it.  For centuries nobody dared contravene this verdict, until a monk by the name of Martin Luther
    had the audacity to declare for himself and others what texts were authentic.  In response the Council of Trent vehemenently
    reaffirmed the declarations of the Council of Ephesus, and anathematized anybody who would dare contravene those statutes. 
    For the English Speaking world, in response to the Protestant mutulation of scripture, the Vulgate was translated into
    English; The New Testament was finished at Rheims in 1582, while the Old Testament was compiled at Douay France and finished
    in 1610.  Later, about 1750, Bishop Richard Challoner compiled the annotations included in most typical Catholic editions (to
    counter Protestant misinterpretations) and revised the text somewhat regarding archaic phrasology.  For the English-speaking
    world, that should be where the story ends.
         But, as the reader has already guessed, our story is just beginning.  Examples are legion; one will suffice.  In 1819

    William Ellery Channing preached an ordination sermon in Baltimore where he advocated historical method as a principle of
    biblical interpretation.  In other words, men of this stripe felt that the findings of science and archeology might expound
    our understanding of scripture.  Such figures proliferated going forward, especially as the speculations of Darwin and Lyell
    challenged the creation account in Genesis.  A man by the name of Rudolf Bultmann would really get the ball rolling, but as
    he only came into prominence about 1910, that is getting a little ahead of the story.  
         The first reaction in the Church was under the pontificate of Leo XXIII.  He sounds the alarm in PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUSS,

    in the year 1893.  Among other things, he states: "The Professor, following the tradition of antiquity, will make use of the
    Vulgate as his text; for the Council of Trent decreed that 'in public lectures, disputations, preaching, and exposition,' the
    Vulgate is the 'authentic' version; and this is the existing custom of the Church. At the same time, the other versions which
    Christian antiquity has approved, should not be neglected, more especially the more ancient MSS. For although the meaning of
    the Hebrew and Greek is substantially rendered by the Vulgate, nevertheless wherever there may be ambiguity or want of
    clearness, the 'examination of older tongues,' to quote St. Augustine, will be useful and advantageous. But in this matter we
    need hardly say that the greatest prudence is required, for the 'office of a commentator,' as St. Jerome says, 'is to set
    forth not what he himself would prefer, but what his author says.'"  Note that while Pope Leo affirms Trent, he opens a
    slight crack with a reference to versions approved by "Christian antiquity".  Whatever that term may mean, it precludes
    Apostolic tradition.
         Pius X attempted to close this crack with LAMENTABILI SANE, issued in 1907 which had many false propositions concerning

    sacred scripiture condemned, amoung which are the following: "The Church's interpretation of the Sacred Books is by no means
    to be rejected; nevertheless, it is subject to the more accurate judgment and correction of the exegetes."  "Since the
    deposit of Faith contains only revealed truths, the Church has no right to pass judgment on the assertions of the human
    sciences."  "They display excessive simplicity or ignorance who believe that God is really the author of the Sacred
    Scriptures.  "Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every
    one, free from every error."  "If he wishes to apply himself usefully to Biblical studies, the exegete must first put aside
    all preconceived opinions about the supernatural origin of Sacred Scripture and interpret it the same as any other merely
    human docuмent."  "The narrations of John are not properly history, but a mystical contemplation of the Gospel. The
    discourses contained in his Gospel are theological meditations, lacking historical truth concerning the mystery of
    salvation."  "John claims for himself the quality of witness concerning Christ. In reality, however, he is only a
    distinguished witness of the Christian life, or of the life of Christ in the Church at the close of the first century."  One
    sees here a detailed attack on the errors of Protestant exagetes, and a much-needed breath of fresh air.  Unfortunately,
    however, the cracks opened by Leo XXIII were not so easily closed, even despite a decree by the Pontifical Biblical Commision
    that the first seven chapters of Genesis are truly history and not to be read in an allogorical or symbolic manner.
        Suffice to say that erosion will continue with Benedict XV and Pius XI.  But the fizzure really opened wide on September

    30th, 1943.  The first ten or so paragraphs of Divino Afflante Spiritu are indeed a wonderful exposition of the steps taken
    by the previous four popes to combat the rising tide of rationalist "demythology", whose principle advocate at this time was
    Rudolf Bultmann.  Many a reader will be lulled to sleep.  But then we come to paragraph eleven: "There is no one who cannot
    easily perceive that the conditions of biblical studies and their subsidiary sciences have greatly changed within the last
    fifty years. For, apart from anything else, when Our Predecessor published the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus,
    hardly a single place in Palestine had begun to be explored by means of relevant excavations. Now, however, this kind of
    investigation is much more frequent and, since more precise methods and technical skill have been developed in the course of
    actual experience, it gives us information at once more abundant and more accurate. How much light has been derived from
    these explorations for the more correct and fuller understanding of the Sacred Books all experts know, as well as all those
    who devote themselves to these studies. The value of these excavations is enhanced by the discovery from time to time of
    written docuмents, which help much towards the knowledge of the languages, letters, events, customs, and forms of worship of
    most ancient times. And of no less importance is papyri which have contributed so much to the knowledge of the discovery and
    investigation, so frequent in our times, of letters and institutions, both public and private, especially of the time of Our
    Savior."  (One can only guess what this paragraph might have said if it had been written after the famous "Dead Sea Scrolls"
    were discovered by Bedouin shepherds Muhammed Edh-Dhib, Jum'a Muhammed, and Khalil Musa, about November 1946.)  At any rate,
    these words obviously imply that the church suffered from a deficiency which can now be remedied!  Move over St Jerome, here
    come the archeologists and exegetes.  "All these advantages which, not without a special design of Divine Providence, our age
    has acquired, are as it were an invitation and inducement to interpreters of the Sacred Literature to make diligent use of
    this light, so abundantly given, to penetrate more deeply, explain more clearly and expound more lucidly the Divine Oracles."
    The implication here is that we are equipped to plumb more deeply into the divine mysteries than the Fathers of the Church,
    who had the testimony of the Apostles themselves, now that we have microscopes and litmus paper.  Moreover, the fathers were
    at a distinct disadvantage, since "such was the state of letters in those times, that not many- and these few but
    imperfectly- knew the Hebrew language."  One does suppose that amoung those archeological finds was a copy of St Jerome's
    grammer school report cards!
         But get a load of this jargon: "And if the Tridentine Synod wished 'that all should use as authentic' the Vulgate Latin

    version, this, as all know, applies only to the Latin Church and to the public use of the same Scriptures; nor does it,
    doubtless, in any way diminish the authority and value of the original texts.  For there was no question then of these texts,
    but of the Latin versions, which were in circulation at that time, and of these the same Council rightly declared to be
    preferable that which 'had been approved by its long-continued use for so many centuries in the Church.' Hence this special
    authority or as they say, authenticity of the Vulgate was not affirmed by the Council particularly for critical reasons, but
    rather because of its legitimate use in the Churches throughout so many centuries; by which use indeed the same is shown, in
    the sense in which the Church has understood and understands it, to be free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and
    morals; so that, as the Church herself testifies and affirms, it may be quoted safely and without fear of error in
    disputations, in lectures and in preaching; and so its authenticity is not specified primarily as critical, but rather as
    juridical."
         Needless to say, this distinction between "critical" and "juridical" does not exist in any previous Church pronouncement

    concerning sacred scripture.  Meanwhile, here are few questions for those rationalists masquerading as biblical scholars:  By
    what criteria can we discern that an ancient docuмent is venerable and trustworthy?  Do scientists have some type of litmus
    paper which turns blue if texts were written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost or red if they were fabricated by evil
    men trying to lead souls astray (or just simply turning a profit).  Meanwhile, something definitely changed.  To quote but
    one author: "It wasn't until the 1940s that the reins were loosened for Catholic biblical scholars when Pius XII in his 1943
    Divino Afflanto Spiritu recommended that scholars have recourse to the original languages of texts and take into account
    their literary forms.  And on January 16th 1948 the secretary of the Pontifical Biblical Commission wrote to Cardinal Suhard,
    the Archbishop of Paris, modifying the decree of 1906 on the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch and allowing the question to
    be freely studied.  And the force of some of the earlier decrees of the Commission were modified in a rather backhanded way
    in 1955."  The citation does not matter here, just the facts, which are not products of this writer's imagination. 
         One sees throughout many parts of Divino Afflante Spiritu the sort of stuff that should only be coming from Kansas Cows.

    St Jerome in particular is held in veiled contempt.  "Nor should anyone think that this use of the original texts, in
    accordance with the methods of criticism, in any way derogates from those decrees so wisely enacted by the Council of Trent
    concerning the Latin Vulgate.  It is historically certain that the Presidents of the Council received a commission, which
    they duly carried out, to beg, that is, the Sovereign Pontiff in the name of the Council that he should have corrected, as
    far as possible, first a Latin, and then a Greek, and Hebrew edition, which eventually would be published for the benefit of
    the Holy Church of God.  If this desire could not then be fully realized owing to the difficulties of the times and other
    obstacles, at present it can, We earnestly hope, be more perfectly and entirely fulfilled by the united efforts of Catholic
    scholars."  The very thought the Vulgate of St Jerome stands in any need of correction is an affront to the Holy Ghost, pure
    and simple.
         Just what is the bottom line here?  Well, consider what happened to the book of Tobias after exegetes studied and

    corralated the Dead Sea Scrolls.  In the Vulgate version, we have the following: "And Raphael said to Tobias: As soon as thou
    shalt come into thy house, forthwith adore the Lord thy God: and giving thanks to him, go to thy father, and kiss him.  And
    immediately anoint his eyes with this gall of the fish, which thou carriest with thee. For be assured that his eyes shall be
    presently opened, and thy father shall see the light of heaven, and shall rejoice in the sight of thee.  Then the dog, which
    had been with them in the way, ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and
    wagging his tail.  And his father that was blind, rising up, began to run stumbling with his feet: and giving a servant his
    hand, went to meet his son."  But here is the product of the exegetes (namely, the New American Bible): "Raphael said to
    Tobiah before he came near to his father: 'I know that his eyes will be opened. Apply the fish gall to his eyes, and the
    medicine will make the white scales shrink and peel off from his eyes; then your father will have sight again and will see
    the light of day.'  Then Anna ran up to her son, embraced him, and said to him, 'Now that I have seen you again, son, I am
    ready to die!' And she sobbed aloud.  Tobit got up and stumbled out through the courtyard gate to meet his son."  The largest
    single change one should notice is that the dog is missing from the second version.  The dog is also missing from the Dead
    Sea Scrolls, and the the earlier Greek codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.  Also, in the typical Latin editions of the book of
    Tobias prior to St Jerome, namely, the Vetus Latina, no mutt is to be found, either.  So where did St Jerome get his dog? 
    Perhaps he had access to docuмents no longer extant, like those that perished when the Muslim hordes burned the Library of
    Alexandria in the year 682.  Maybe the Holy Ghost barked in his ear.  Seriously however, one should see that once details of
    scripture are tampered with, an avalanche might ensue that would bury the Faith itself.
         Many of course will instantly dismiss the New American Bible as being the product of post-Councilear bubbleheads, but

    they cannot so easily refute this second example.  In 1944, the English hierarchy approved for general use the translation of
    the bible by Monsignor Ronald Knox, English theologian, priest, and crime writer on the side.  In 1936 he was commissioned to
    begin his work, completed only in 1945.  The volume was given an imprimatur by Cardinal Griffin December 8th 1954. And why is
    this important?  First, here is the Latin translation of St John, chapter 21, verses 16, 17, and 18: "Dixit Jesus Simoni
    Petro, diligis me plus his?  Dicit ei: Etiam Domine, tu scis quia amo te.  Dicit ei: PASCE AGNOS MEOS.  Dicit ei iterum:
    Simon Joannis, diligis me?  Ait illi: Etiam Domine, tu scis quis amo te.  Dicit ei: PASCE AGNOS MEOS.  Dicit ei tertio: Simon
    Joannis, amas me?  Et dixit ei: Domine, tu omnia nostri; tu scis quia amo te.  Dixit ei: PASCE OVES MEAS."  Now here is the
    English translation from the Vulgate: "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest
    thou me more than these?  He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: FEED MY LAMBS.  He
    saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith
    to him: FEED MY LAMBS.  He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had
    said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee.
    He said to him: FEED MY SHEEP."  Now we turn to the Knox version: "And when they had eaten, Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon,
    son of John, dost thou care for me more than these others? Yes, Lord, he told him, thou knowest well that I love thee. And he
    said to him, FEED MY LAMBS.  And again, a second time, he asked him, Simon, son of John, dost thou care for me? Yes, Lord, he
    told him, thou knowest well that I love thee. He said to him, TEND MY SHEARLINGS.  Then he asked him a third question, Simon,
    son of John, dost thou love me?  Peter was deeply moved when he was asked a third time, Dost thou love me? and said to him,
    Lord, thou knowest all things; thou canst tell that I love thee. Jesus said to him, FEED MY SHEEP."  One trusts the reader
    can identify that shearlings are not essentially the same thing as lambs, because wolves can be sheared as well (their hair
    actually makes good yarn for knitting).  Moreover, tending is not the same as feeding, as any dog owner should know.  A
    footnote comes to the rescue: "Some of the Greek manuscripts here have 'my sheep', others 'my little sheep'; it would seem
    that the second reading was accepted by the Latin, which translates 'lambs', here as in verse 15. Probably our Lord meant
    yearling sheep, which would need to be tended, that is, led out to pasture, with greater care than the others."
         One can readily see here that if rationalists are having problems with something so simple as sheep, just how will they

    handle the more subtler passages of scripture?  Given human propensity to call good evil and vice versa, one easily perceives
    the slippery slope.  And that explains the vehemence with which the saints have defended the integrity of Holy Scripture,
    scrupulously protecting every jot and tittle.  Tobias notwithstanding, it is Pius XII, Fr Bea (the purported author of Divino
    Afflante Spiritu), and their fellow travelers who risk going to the dogs.
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!


    Offline White Wolf

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 170
    • Reputation: +48/-84
    • Gender: Male
    In reply to Bumphrey...
    « Reply #5 on: June 03, 2017, 06:07:57 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • This is not a question of true popes, but a question of truth.  This is not about whether I think Pius XII was too pompous or too short or had a bad haircut or ran around with bad companions, it just about facts and failures.  If I am spouting any flaming heresies, please cite them.  If my research is in error, please correct.  But insinuating that I am somehow not Catholic because I criticize the pre-Vatican II popes is rather dull.  We must look at all things in the light of truth, not whether it was post- or pre- Vatican II.  Our Lord did tell the woman at well: You worship what you do not understand, we understand what we worship.  The same could be said of a lot of Traditional Catholics, that they do not understand the essence of Holy Mother Church. After all, if Pope Frantic does something right, you might entirely miss it because he is "post-Vatican II" or "not the pope", or whatever.  There are lots of people who feel they must  :heretic:, because they have to supply where the Church authorities are deficient. 

    I once thought that the popes were elevated to demigods upon being elected.  (Some people think that of Bishop Fellay.)  How about we study the Faith and drain the swamp of stupidity.
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!

    Offline AlligatorDicax

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 908
    • Reputation: +372/-173
    • Gender: Male
    Cite your source!/Re: The following might give some insights...
    « Reply #6 on: June 12, 2017, 12:01:48 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Subject: The following might give some insights...

          The astute reader is probably taken aback by the title to this chapter, for which the author gives no apologies.  The
    even more astute reader might realize that this is a pun on the encyclical, Divino Afflante Spiritu, published September
    30th, 1943.  Alledgedly the work of Pius XII, [....]

    This "astute reader is probably taken aback" by the posting that's represented by the deliberately short excerpt above:
    ·   No chapter title is given above, despite being the de facto subject of the very first sentence;
    ·   nor even book title is given above.
    ·   No author is identified above.

    Which causes me to notice later:
    ·   No substantive information at all is conveyed by the 'Subject:' of the posting identified above--unlike the 'Subject:' "tampering with the Vulgate" that the poster needlessly replaced.

    Why should I--or any other C.I. readers--spend time reading anonymous arguments shovelled into CathInfo, that were taken completely uncredited from what context indicates is a published source?

    ·   Single long block of run-on text (e.g.: 6 pages on a largish widescreen desktop monitor)
    ·   squeezed in by using needlessly tiny type[†]
    ·   which is needlessly dim on CathInfo's pastel backgrounds.[¢]
    ·   3 factors that combine to produce needless eye-strain.

    All those deficiencies are hostile to potential readers--especially those whose eyesight is declining--so I chose to not read it, despite the topic being one in which I'm especially interested.

    -------
    Note †: Physical a.k.a. hard-coded small type size whose typical but ill-advised benefit--squeezing more text into a given space--is ruined & reversed by inept line-breaking (presumably also physical line-breaks).  Each line--or nearly each--wrapped with needlessly redundant HTML mark-up that reminds me of the notoriously awful HTML output produced by Microsoft Word.  I sure hope it isn't output directly from the add-on that Matthew paid good money for.

    Note ¢: Dark gray (#222222)--instead of fully black (#000000)--text on a background that (as you should know by now) defaults to pale cyan (perhaps #CCFFFF) and pale orange.  I don't give a [expletives deleted] how kewwwl trendiness-obsessed graphic-design "artists" think the resulting visual effect is.

    Offline compline

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 112
    • Reputation: +86/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Cite your source!/Re: The following might give some insights...
    « Reply #7 on: June 12, 2017, 07:02:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This "astute reader is probably taken aback" by the posting that's represented by the deliberately short excerpt above:
    ·   No chapter title is given above, despite being the de facto subject of the very first sentence;
    ·   nor even book title is given above.
    ·   No author is identified above.

    I would like to know the source of White Wolf's post also. I did read the whole post, and it's a mixture of scholarly ideas with some surprisingly sophomoric phrasing, so I suspect it might be a self published book.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #8 on: June 12, 2017, 08:14:05 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Popes: Favored punching bags of heretics since 352!
    .

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline LeDeg

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 736
    • Reputation: +479/-98
    • Gender: Male
    • I am responsible only to God and history.
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #9 on: June 12, 2017, 03:24:53 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • It's amazing, but understandable, how Catholics seem to draw a demarcation line with Vatican II and think the rot in the Church was not in full swing for quite some time. Pacelli, as well as Montini, were protege's of Cardinal Rampolla, a known Mason. Pius XII know full well what was going on with the liturgy and Bugnini's handiwork and gave his blessing. It's not a "great mystery", or he was "ill and had no clue". Pius XII put the machine in motion, he bears as much responsibility for the crisis as the rest of them. Chiesa (Benedict XV) was Rampolla's personal secretary, and also played a part. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #10 on: June 13, 2017, 06:09:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I had no idea that this started back under Paul 6th.

    changing the Vulgate
    Just another protestant bible I will never open. By their deeds you shall know them. Just more proof that the Vatican II church popes are destroyers. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #11 on: June 13, 2017, 06:17:37 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • It's amazing, but understandable, how Catholics seem to draw a demarcation line with Vatican II and think the rot in the Church was not in full swing for quite some time. Pacelli, as well as Montini, were protege's of Cardinal Rampolla, a known Mason. Pius XII know full well what was going on with the liturgy and Bugnini's handiwork and gave his blessing. It's not a "great mystery", or he was "ill and had no clue". Pius XII put the machine in motion, he bears as much responsibility for the crisis as the rest of them. Chiesa (Benedict XV) was Rampolla's personal secretary, and also played a part.
    A toast to Mary Ball Martinez! I read all her versions of the book, may she rest in peace. 

    I say we can say that Pius XII was fooled and allowed these ideas and changes to flourish, that does not make him an anti-pope. It seems that there is a group of traditionalist who have a instant knee-jerk reaction to anyone that criticizes the errors of past popes, by instantly assuming that one who criticizes a past popes errors is labeling the pope anti-pope. Popes do make errors in judgement. Pius XII however, did not convoke Vatican II , not did he throw out the window all the advise of the tradtionalist bishops at Vatican II as John XXIII . Neither did Pius XII take the name of an anti-ppope as John XXIII did. Nether did he implement the complete change of religion that Paul VI, JPII, B-16, and F1 have implemented. BIG difference between Chiesa (Benedict XV), Pius XII versus the Vatican II church "popes". 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline LeDeg

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 736
    • Reputation: +479/-98
    • Gender: Male
    • I am responsible only to God and history.
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 09:35:21 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • A toast to Mary Ball Martinez! I read all her versions of the book, may she rest in peace.

    I say we can say that Pius XII was fooled and allowed these ideas and changes to flourish, that does not make him an anti-pope. It seems that there is a group of traditionalist who have a instant knee-jerk reaction to anyone that criticizes the errors of past popes, by instantly assuming that one who criticizes a past popes errors is labeling the pope anti-pope. Popes do make errors in judgement. Pius XII however, did not convoke Vatican II , not did he throw out the window all the advise of the tradtionalist bishops at Vatican II as John XXIII . Neither did Pius XII take the name of an anti-ppope as John XXIII did. Nether did he implement the complete change of religion that Paul VI, JPII, B-16, and F1 have implemented. BIG difference between Chiesa (Benedict XV), Pius XII versus the Vatican II church "popes".
    I never claimed he was an anti-pope. 
    There is no denying he was under the direct tutelage of Rampolla. Ms. Martinez did not have a monopoly on the knowledge of what went on at the turn of the century. Fr. Hesse' uncle (?), for example, confirmed that he (his uncle) knew the Hapsburg's and that Emperor Franz Josef, a devout Catholic, knew Rampolla was a high ranking Mason. Pacelli's family, as well as the Monitini's, we're connected to the Rothchilds and the establishment of the Vatican bank. Their sons were being groomed for the Masonic take over of the Church, which is why Pacelli was kept in isolation in his youth and away from the Catholic educational system. 
    Incrementalism was the strategy. Pacelli's was the head of the ship on earth. He allowed the liturgical deconstruction, as well as other precursors to Vatican II, to begin. The buck stops with him under his reign. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: tampering with the Vulgate
    « Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 12:17:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I never claimed he was an anti-pope.
    I never accused you of claiming he was an anti-pope.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24