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Offline gladius_veritatis

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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 07:04:37 PM »
Quote from: Caraffa
Paul IV, cuŠ¼ Ex Apostolatus Officio:


Why not share the ENTIRE text?
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Offline Caminus

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 07:09:03 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Caminus, if ipso facto excommunication is indeed real, then are you going to suggest that Catholic have no right to recognize it when it is publicly manifest?


Not legally, no.  And especially from our vantage point with regard to the "entire Church."  In the concrete, with regard to one whom you personally know and the facts are not in reasonable dispute, a moral certainty could be attained.  But to extrapolate this into the "sedevacantist thesis" frought with all it's problems is epistemologically inadmissable.

But this is a different question than what the original text referred to.  It didn't regard the "knowability" but rather the "effectiveness" of the penalty itself.  It was a theoretical, not a practical question.    
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Offline Caminus

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 07:10:55 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Quote from: Caminus
...No one here asserts this notion, therefore to put forth this as somehow material to the discussion is simply a straw man.

I guess it would be useless to add that the level of ignorance, presumption and carelessness among those who feel free to wade into the deep waters of theology and issue dogmatic decrees of condemnations of persons is shocking to say the least.


The first sentence quoted above seems to lack a certain consistency with the second, particularly the bold section.

Surely you can share the texts of these "dogmatic decrees of condemnations"?  Straw man?


Certainly the dogmatic character is revealed once a man starts to determine who is and who is not a member of the Church in relation to his new found opinion.
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Offline Caminus

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 07:14:31 PM »
But at any rate, that comment was not really in reference to an "argument" made by an opponent, so it doesn't really fit into the category of a "straw man."  It could have been a bit hyperbolic for some, but it certainly touches upon the truth of the attitude of the members of the Church of the SedeVacante.
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Offline CM

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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 07:23:53 PM »
Quote from: Caminus
Certainly the dogmatic character is revealed once a man starts to determine who is and who is not a member of the Church in relation to his new found opinion.


It is NOT a new found opinion that heretics are outside the Church, and that to be in communion with a false bishop of Rome is to be out of communion with the Church.
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