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Offline CM

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« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2009, 06:45:28 PM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Sedes are heretics as they deny the current Pope as valid and believe in private judgment. In addition they are in schism as they also deny the Pope's rightful authority over them.


You don't even know what you're talking about.  Private judgment?  Do you ever make any private judgments of your own?  Of course you do.

There are certain judgments that we can make you know stevusmagnus, without violating the law.  Do you happen to know what judgments are forbidden?

It is judging the sense of Scripture and Tradition privately and in contradiction to the MAGISTERIUM of the Church and the unanimous consent of the Fathers.  However, when there are passages of Scripture that have not been defined by Holy Mother Church, so long as a person's judgment does not contradict the Faith, it is perfectly lawful to form judgments on these passages.

According to you a person who denies that a heretic can be pope is a heretic himself.  Wow!  Maybe you should elect him to be your new pope!

Offline gladius_veritatis

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(No subject)
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2009, 06:50:22 PM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Sedes are heretics as they deny the current Pope as valid and believe in private judgment. In addition they are in schism as they also deny the Pope's rightful authority over them.


Considering there are countless ecclesiastics, in Traddieland and Novus-ville, who do not go so far, you might want to rethink your presumptions (i.e., PRIVATE judgments about this situation).

Your comments quoted above are really rather uninformed and third-rate, stevus, even if we presume you are correct about the present situation.


Offline CM

(No subject)
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2009, 07:09:32 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Your comments quoted above are really rather uninformed and third-rate, stevus, even if we presume you are correct about the present situation.


Pretend, rather.

(No subject)
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2009, 10:56:57 AM »
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Caminus, your examples that do not add one tittle to Public Revelation are in fact perfect examples of the Church invoking Her infallibility on matters of faith and morals.

When a proposition is condemned as heretical, it is condemned as contrary to revealed dogma, which is only Faith and morals.


You've just conceded the point.  Now you change your tune a little for you previously asserted infallibility pertains only to matters of divine revelation.  That was the foundation of your most ridiculous argument denying infallibility to dogmatic facts and truths of philosophy.  Now you want to assert that the negation of revelation is somehow actually a part of revelation.  

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The Church generally refrains, however from condemning the intended meaning of the authors of such propositions, and with good cause.  It can be very difficult to know the subjective state of the persons soul and disposition, not to mention mitigating factors, the potential unreliability of the human testimony, etc.


The Church ALWAYS condemned a proposition in the sense that the author intended, at least according to the propositions context.  

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For example, it has happened before that enemies a particular person stitch together quotes from his or her works in a disingenuous and unrepresentative manner, present them to the Holy See, and demand condemnation.


And in such cases, the Holy Office conducted a thorough investigation into the matter.  What you imply is that it is practially impossible to extract the intended meaning, which is exactly what the Jansenists alleged.

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How could the same not apply to canonizations, which also rely on fallible human testimony?


Witness testimony is considered to constitute morally certain evidence.  But ultimately, there can be no error because of the exercise of supreme authority, upon which our certitude rests.  The Church is infallible because it possesses supreme authority, not the other way around.

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All instances named in the second paragraph quoted are instances that touch specifically on how various objects stand in relation to the dogmas of faith and morals.


To assert that something "stands in relation" is to imply a non-identity.  

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So you have yet to prove what you assert, that is that the Holy Ghost was promised for any other purpose than to religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.


I don't need to prove it because you've already conceded the point.  Unless you wish to assert that heresy or a falsehood has more of a "relation" to the faith than the Saints whose relics adorn our altars and who stand as perfect witnesses and models of Christian learning and sanctity?  Are you prepared to assert such diabolical nonsense?

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that the exercise of supreme authority somehow affects the content of revelation when in reality the two notions are entirely distinct.  It is this fallacy which vitiates your mind.  If you persist, your infamy will be noted yet again and will bring nothing but scorn and contempt upon your person.  

Offline CM

(No subject)
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2009, 02:59:14 PM »
There is a difference between exercising supreme authority and infallibility.

Quote from: Caminus
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Caminus, your examples that do not add one tittle to Public Revelation are in fact perfect examples of the Church invoking Her infallibility on matters of faith and morals.

When a proposition is condemned as heretical, it is condemned as contrary to revealed dogma, which is only Faith and morals.



You've just conceded the point.  Now you change your tune a little for you previously asserted infallibility pertains only to matters of divine revelation.


You weirdo the dogmas of faith and morals ARE Divine revelation!


Quote from: Caminus
That was the foundation of your most ridiculous argument denying infallibility to dogmatic facts


A dogmatic fact is a convergence between a dogma and a historical certainty.  History, however does not contain ABSOLUTELY certain truths, as historical revisionists will happily tell you, but morally certain at best.  This is far from infallible.