Author Topic: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’ (Read 1445 times)

MaterDominici · « **on:** March 19, 2017, 12:44:12 PM »

I'm posting this to test the new site. : )
Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’
Amoris Laetitia , Depose The Pope Conference , Pope Francis
PARIS, March 17, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- Canon lawyers, theologians, and scholars will be meeting in Paris in two weeks to discuss a topic that has never been the focus of a Catholic conference before: How to depose a heretical pope.
Titled Deposing the Pope: Theological Premises, Canonical Models, Constitutional Challenge, the conference seeks to explore the mechanisms that are built into the Catholic Church for dealing with a pope who openly teaches falsehood and even heresy.
Speaking at the conference will be University of Paris Professor Laurent Fonbaustier who published a 1200 page book last year on the topic that was titled The Deposition of the Heretical Pope.
The conference includes 15 speakers who will be giving a range of talks on the subject matter with titles such as “Conciliarism and the Deposition of a Pope Through the Prism of Gallicanism,” "The Downfall of the Pope: Between Renunciation and Deposition," and "The Deposition of John XXII and Benedict XIII at Constance, 1415–1417."

Brochure from the 'Deposing the Pope' Conference
Speaking at the conference are Professors Nicolas Warembourg and Cyrille Dounot, two of the 45 Catholic academics who last June submitted an appeal to the Dean of the College of Cardinals in Rome requesting a repudiation of erroneous propositions they found in Pope Francis’ exhortation Amoris Laetitia.
The group of 45 Catholic academics said the Pope’s exhortation presented “dangers to Catholic faith and morals” since it “contains a number of statements that can be understood in a sense that is contrary to Catholic faith and morals.”
The conference comes after four years of Francis at the helm of the Barque of Peter. During this time the Pope, and the people he has put into key positions, have steered the Church in a direction that would have been unthinkable to faithful Catholics under the two previous pontiffs of John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.
Francis’ ambiguous speeches and especially his papal writings have turned cardinal against cardinal, bishop against bishop, and lay-faithful against lay-faithful. Doctrinal confusion has resulted in pastoral guidelines being issued based on his writings that allow Holy Communion to be given to those living in adultery.
READ: They gave Pope Francis four years to ‘make the Church over again.’ Here’s how he’s tried.
Last November Vaticanist Giuseppe Nardi reported that a 1975 theological study by the learned Brazilian layman Arnaldo Vidigal Xavier da Silveira was making the rounds in the Vatican. The layman examined in his work titled The Theological Hypothesis of a Heretical Pope whether it is possible for a pope to be or become a heretic, and if so, what consequences would follow from this.
Reported Nardi: “Three-and-a-half years after the start of his pontificate, Pope Francis is reaching his limits. The impression, given by means of gestures and words, of a latent intention to change the doctrine of the Church must at some point either take on definite form or else it must collapse,” he wrote at that time.
“Francis finds himself cornered by means of the very atmosphere he himself is responsible for creating. It’s no longer about a spontaneous utterance on this or that, which remains improvised and non-binding. His pastoral work and his leadership skills, which demand a sense of responsibility and an exemplary character, are reaching their limits. This could cause Francis [‘s pontificate] to fail,” he added.
The conference comes three months after Cardinal Raymond Burke gave an interview in which he explained that if a pope were to "formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope.”
Burke said in the December 2016 interview that there is a process within the Church for dealing with such a situation, adding his hope that “we won’t be witnessing that at any time soon.”
Also in December American canon lawyer Dr. Edward Peters addressed the question of what could be done if a pope were found to be heretical.
Peters writes that the “crucial question” from a canonist’s perspective is “who would determine whether a given pope has fallen into heresy” since Canon 1404 states that the “First See is judged by no one.”
He found in canonical tradition, however, the position that if a general council determined that a pope had committed heresy, by that very fact he will have effectually cut himself off from the true vine, thereby forfeiting his office.
Comments Peters: “…however remote is the possibility of a pope actually falling into heresy and however difficult it might be to determine whether a pope has so fallen, such a catastrophe, Deus vetet [God forbid], would result in the loss of papal office.”
The location for the upcoming conference is significant, reports Church Militant. It was in the 1300s the University of Paris explored the question of what could be done with the possibly heretical Pope John XXII, who denied the doctrine that the souls of the just are admitted to the beatific vision after death, a position he retracted on his deathbed.

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2017, 03:46:14 PM »

Quote

PARIS, March 17, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- Canon lawyers, theologians, and scholars will be meeting in Paris in two weeks to discuss a topic that has never been the focus of a Catholic conference before: How to depose a heretical pope.

Yet another novelty brought on by the V2 revolution is all this is.

What does it take I wonder for the brainiac canon lawyers, theologians and scholars to understand that if it were possible to depose a heretical pope, then being that man, due to Original Sin is evil by nature, it would be possible and even probable that saintly popes would also be deposed.

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2017, 04:55:37 PM »

Really, all they have to do is look in approved Catholic books after the Vatican Council of 1870 to see that corrections given to a pope amount to nothing if the pope doesn't heed them. His status would remain the same. The books say that a pope deposes himself by becoming a manifest heretic, and his loss of office is ipso facto. The Church would merely have to make a declaratory sentence about that previous loss of office so that everyone in the Church would be on the same page about it.

poche · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2017, 04:53:57 AM »

There is a problem here that is found in Canon Law;

Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.
Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2017, 05:21:53 AM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on March 19, 2017, 04:55:37 PM

Really, all they have to do is look in approved Catholic books after the Vatican Council of 1870 to see that corrections given to a pope amount to nothing if the pope doesn't heed them. His status would remain the same. The books say that a pope deposes himself by becoming a manifest heretic, and his loss of office is ipso facto. The Church would merely have to make a declaratory sentence about that previous loss of office so that everyone in the Church would be on the same page about it.

What measure is there which guarantees absolutely that "the Church" does not make a declaratory sentence about the loss of office of a "valid" pope?

songbird · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2017, 06:22:56 PM »

Well, the "pope" is only the "tip" of the iceberg! For all those who claim to be better raise their hand! All who would be in charge of such a fiasco, do they not say the New Order mess? Of course! Are they not heretics as well?! Of course! Are any truly ordained? I wouldn't think so.

So, who are these so-called canons and puff balls in-charge of what? think we to be fools?! It will only be another Dog and Pony Show! More destruction. I do believe we also know of Catholic Prophecies and does it not mention that Christ and His Mother will come to straighten out one day?! Amen!

songbird · « **Reply #6 on:** March 23, 2017, 04:20:28 PM »

I am still laughing! How many will fall for this?!

BumphreyHogart · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2017, 11:24:54 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 20, 2017, 05:21:53 AM

What measure is there which guarantees absolutely that "the Church" does not make a declaratory sentence about the loss of office of a "valid" pope?

What measure is guaranteed absolutely that you comprehend Church teaching correctly since your comprehension is not infallible? What guarantee that the priest who baptized you did it correctly? What guarantee that each time you go to Mass your priest validly consecrates the Host, or validly absolves your sins in Confession?
These are not serious questions. These are the types of questions modernists and enemies of the Church ask.
God expects us to pray, and act upon our reason, enlightened by faith. That's the answer.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2017, 09:11:01 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 19, 2017, 03:46:14 PM

Yet another novelty brought on by the V2 revolution is all this is.

What does it take I wonder for the brainiac canon lawyers, theologians and scholars to understand that if it were possible to depose a heretical pope, then being that man, due to Original Sin is evil by nature, it would be possible and even probable that saintly popes would also be deposed.

Pope St. Pius X was canonized not a minute too soon. If they had postponed his being proclaimed a saint in 1950, imagine what chance there would have been for him say 10 years later, when John XXIII was getting ready for his infamous council and freeing the Modernists that had been suppressed thanks to Pius X's timely prohibitions against them since 1907 and 1910.

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2017, 04:59:38 AM »

Quote from: BumphreyHogart on March 24, 2017, 11:24:54 AM

What measure is guaranteed absolutely that you comprehend Church teaching correctly since your comprehension is not infallible? What guarantee that the priest who baptized you did it correctly? What guarantee that each time you go to Mass your priest validly consecrates the Host, or validly absolves your sins in Confession?
These are not serious questions. These are the types of questions modernists and enemies of the Church ask.
God expects us to pray, and act upon our reason, enlightened by faith. That's the answer.

I agree "These are not serious questions. These are the types of questions modernists and enemies of the Church ask". So why ask them at all? They have nothing to do with my question: What measure is there which guarantees absolutely that "the Church" does not make a declaratory sentence about the loss of office of a "valid" pope?

You're the one who apparently believes the Church actually has some way to depose a pope, if so, then what guarantee is there that a valid pope does not get deposed? How many times must I ask the same question in this thread before you answer it directly?

countrychurch · « **Reply #10 on:** March 29, 2017, 01:39:02 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici on March 19, 2017, 12:44:12 PM

The location for the upcoming conference is significant, reports Church Militant. It was in the 1300s the University of Paris explored the question of what could be done with the possibly heretical Pope John XXII, who denied the doctrine that the souls of the just are admitted to the beatific vision after death, a position he retracted on his deathbed.

This is the best news I have heard all year, after maybe the election results. And the 2 events (Trump winning/the pope being challenged) are not un-related

in any case, this last thing is something I don't u/stand. Pope XXII denied what?

not all souls, even of the just, are automtically admitted to the beatific vision, if beatific vision means Heaven.. so...

please explain

countrychurch · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2017, 01:41:49 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 19, 2017, 03:46:14 PM

Yet another novelty brought on by the V2 revolution is all this is.

What does it take I wonder for the brainiac canon lawyers, theologians and scholars to understand that if it were possible to depose a heretical pope, then being that man, due to Original Sin is evil by nature, it would be possible and even probable that saintly popes would also be deposed.

maybe this should be (just thinking here) the one part of the Church that could be "democratic" as in: If the majority in the Church say the pope is a heretic.. he is out?

just a thought, though not one i have ruminated on.

And it is also problematic to me that most of the faithful don't have a clue about the machinations in the papacy.. the procedures about this kind of thing. Of course, how many times in history have we had such a blatantly heretical (sounding) pope?

Author Topic: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’ (Read 1445 times)

MaterDominici

Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

Stubborn

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

BumphreyHogart

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

poche

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

Stubborn

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

songbird

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

songbird

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

BumphreyHogart

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

Neil Obstat

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

Stubborn

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

countrychurch

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’

countrychurch

Re: Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’