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Author Topic: SV Position - no definitive teaching on the matter.  (Read 921 times)

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Offline bowler

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SV Position - no definitive teaching on the matter.
« on: December 10, 2013, 11:08:11 AM »
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  • From:
    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f052ht_S-Vacante.htm

    Looking at Some Basics of Sede-Vacantism, by
    Atila S. Guimarães


    4. The ordinary Magisterium

    When we have recourse to the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, which as you may recall enjoys infallibility when it unanimously affirms the same teaching through the centuries, we do not find a uniform teaching with regard to a heretic Pope.

    What we find is a theological discussion examining the question of a heretic Pope placed on the level of quaestio disputata [question open to discussion], that is, each theologian can express the opinion he wishes. These studies were already categorized by St. Robert Bellarmine into five basic opinions. The themes discussed include the following: Can the Pope be a heretic? Does the Pope lose the pontificate when he becomes a heretic? What if he were a secret heretic? What if he were a public heretic? Is it necessary for some ecclesiastical body to declare him a heretic for him to lose the pontificate or does he lose it automatically? If such declaration were made, would not this ecclesiastical body make itself superior to the Pope? If he is deposed automatically, at what moment does this take place? What happens to the Pope’s power of jurisdiction and orders when he is considered a heretic?

    Bellarmine's only adds his opinion to a question still open to discussion

    At the moment, what concerns me is not to make the list of responses to these questions, but rather to emphasize that there has been no definitive teaching on the matter. The opinions of the various theologians are expressed strongly, but with humility, knowing that until the Church speaks, there is no definitive answer.

    The important conclusion is that there is not unanimity of opinion among the theologians about what happens should a Pope fall into heresy. Even if there were unanimity, this opinion still would not have infallibility. Infallibility resides only in the extraordinary pontifical teachings or in the ordinary pontifical teachings when unanimous, and also in episcopal teachings throughout the centuries when they are unanimous. Even if the opinion of the theologians were unanimous, it would have a non-definitive weight, but at the present stage of the discussion, even this weight cannot be given to it.

    It seems to me that, regarding this discussion, the partisans of sede-vacantism should be more honest with their followers. Instead of presenting partial opinions of this or that Saint or Doctor as if they were definitive certainties, they should show their followers that the topic is a study in progress that will only be closed when the Church leaves the present day crisis and a good Pope gives a final word on the matter.

    Concluding this Part I, we see that with regard to the consideration of the Church as divine, we must limit ourselves to saying that the conciliar Popes are heretics, without drawing definitive conclusions about the loss of their powers of jurisdiction and orders.

    To shed more light on this sad situation of general apostasy, we will change the perspective and go on to look at the Church as a human society, which is much more simple and brief.


    Offline bowler

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    SV Position - no definitive teaching on the matter.
    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 11:39:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    It seems to me that, regarding this discussion, the partisans of sede-vacantism should be more honest with their followers. Instead of presenting partial opinions of this or that Saint or Doctor as if they were definitive certainties, they should show their followers that the topic is a study in progress that will only be closed when the Church leaves the present day crisis and a good Pope gives a final word on the matter.

    Concluding this Part I, we see that with regard to the consideration of the Church as divine, we must limit ourselves to saying that the conciliar Popes are heretics, without drawing definitive conclusions about the loss of their powers of jurisdiction and orders.



    Offline Charlemagne

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    SV Position - no definitive teaching on the matter.
    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 11:49:12 AM »
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  • Unless this is directed toward dogmatic sedevacantism (which is as ridiculous a position as dogmatic sedeplenism), this is jousting with a strawman.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline soulguard

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    SV Position - no definitive teaching on the matter.
    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 12:08:17 PM »
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  • The OP just dismisses all the efforts of the SVs to quote theology with some excuse that the question is not decided yet. Maybe not resolved yet, but the solution is clear from what has been cited by SVs. Depose the man, for a heretic cannot be pope. We don't need the crisis resolved before we can say this. To say we should wait until it is resolved before we go on church teaching is to say that we should not take the necessary steps to resolve the crisis. Is this what is called a non sequitar?

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 12:13:19 PM »
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  • Is this really a good source on the issue?

    Can someone who has published books in defense of and explaining a theological position really be trusted to present the issue fairly?

    I don't even trust many sedevacantist writers and clergy for the same reason.

    People with a reputation or livelihood to protect are not good sources.

    Besides that, his arguement stinks and he doesn't understand the issues, it might work for simplistic people who just want a leader or those who have become cosy with their situation.


    Offline Charlemagne

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    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 12:22:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    Is this really a good source on the issue?

    Can someone who has published books in defense of and explaining a theological position really be trusted to present the issue fairly?

    I don't even trust many sedevacantist writers and clergy for the same reason.

    People with a reputation or livelihood to protect are not good sources.

    Besides that, his arguement stinks and he doesn't understand the issues, it might work for simplistic people who just want a leader or those who have become cosy with their situation.


    Our youngest daughter's godfather is very close friends with the author. There have been attempts many times to "convert" me to their way of thinking. No dice.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 02:32:26 PM »
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  • There's no question but that the heretical pope issue lies in the realm of disputed speculative theology.  That's why I've repeatedly said that my SV leanings have NOTHING to do with the personal state of the V2 Popes.

    It has everything to do with the indefectibility of the Church, that a legitimate Pope and legitimate Council could not have done this to the Church.  Had V2 never happened, I wouldn't give two hoots about the incoherent ramblings of Francis Bergoglio.

    Try to imagine for a minute that Vatican II never happened and Francis Bergoglio was going around making the kinds of statements he's making.  There would be no real sense of urgency to resolve this issue.  We'd continue going to the Traditional Mass at our local parish and upholding Traditional doctrine.  If we thought that Francis was getting out of line, we might petition our bishop and the curia for an investigation into Francis.  But at the end of the day the personal heresy or lack thereof would be of no practical importance to us.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 02:55:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    There's no question but that the heretical pope issue lies in the realm of disputed speculative theology.  That's why I've repeatedly said that my SV leanings have NOTHING to do with the personal state of the V2 Popes.

    It has everything to do with the indefectibility of the Church, that a legitimate Pope and legitimate Council could not have done this to the Church.  Had V2 never happened, I wouldn't give two hoots about the incoherent ramblings of Francis Bergoglio.

    Try to imagine for a minute that Vatican II never happened and Francis Bergoglio was going around making the kinds of statements he's making.  There would be no real sense of urgency to resolve this issue.  We'd continue going to the Traditional Mass at our local parish and upholding Traditional doctrine.  If we thought that Francis was getting out of line, we might petition our bishop and the curia for an investigation into Francis.  But at the end of the day the personal heresy or lack thereof would be of no practical importance to us.


    Then again, if VII never happened Francis wouldn't be saying and doing the things he is saying and doing.

    So, yeah, I'm with you.  I am trying to focus on the same thing you are (the indefectibility of the  Church).  However, to some extent, the heretical actions and words of post V2 papal claimants point to the former and are therefore important as well.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »
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  • There were modernists around even before Vatican II though, but I do imagine that Francis would be a little more toned down.

    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 06:31:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    From:
    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f052ht_S-Vacante.htm

    Looking at Some Basics of Sede-Vacantism, by
    Atila S. Guimarães


    4. The ordinary Magisterium

    When we have recourse to the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, which as you may recall enjoys infallibility when it unanimously affirms the same teaching through the centuries, we do not find a uniform teaching with regard to a heretic Pope.

    What we find is a theological discussion examining the question of a heretic Pope placed on the level of quaestio disputata [question open to discussion], that is, each theologian can express the opinion he wishes. These studies were already categorized by St. Robert Bellarmine into five basic opinions. The themes discussed include the following: Can the Pope be a heretic? Does the Pope lose the pontificate when he becomes a heretic? What if he were a secret heretic? What if he were a public heretic? Is it necessary for some ecclesiastical body to declare him a heretic for him to lose the pontificate or does he lose it automatically? If such declaration were made, would not this ecclesiastical body make itself superior to the Pope? If he is deposed automatically, at what moment does this take place? What happens to the Pope’s power of jurisdiction and orders when he is considered a heretic?

    Bellarmine's only adds his opinion to a question still open to discussion


    I would say this is due to the fact that such a thing had never happened before, since it would be such an unbelievable and unthinkable thing, namely, for the Vicar of Christ himself to become an open and public heretic and an apostate. It is just insane.

    But when we see this very thing happening before our very eyes for decades on end, are we to ramble on saying "oh it's not infallibly settled whether that really is true or not" and simpy dismiss all these teachings from canonized Saints and Doctors of the Church?

    And St. Robert Bellarmine certainly proves this is not mere "opinion open to discussion" and refutes the contrary views as baseless and false.

    Quote
    At the moment, what concerns me is not to make the list of responses to these questions,


    Yeah we know that is your only concern, because you don't care about the truth but instead you bury your head in the sand and want to remain in denial and live your cozy life without getting into any unwanted complications and conclusions.

    Quote
    but rather to emphasize that there has been no definitive teaching on the matter. The opinions of the various theologians are expressed strongly, but with humility, knowing that until the Church speaks, there is no definitive answer.


    False. 2 Popes, Innocent III and Paul IV already said it is the case.

    And on the other hand, how then can people say we are bound to believe in BOD/BOB if they are most certainly "not definitive" nor have they been infallibly taught?

    Quote
    The important conclusion is that there is not unanimity of opinion among the theologians about what happens should a Pope fall into heresy.


    Important conclsion? For what? To continue in your blasphemous position of believing the Church defected?

    Anyways, it is the majority opinion, with only a handful of dissenters which have been refuted anyways by Saints and Doctors.

    I point out again to the case of BOD/BOB. Is there absolute unanimity there? No.

    Quote
    Even if there were unanimity, this opinion still would not have infallibility. Infallibility resides only in the extraordinary pontifical teachings or in the ordinary pontifical teachings when unanimous, and also in episcopal teachings throughout the centuries when they are unanimous. Even if the opinion of the theologians were unanimous, it would have a non-definitive weight, but at the present stage of the discussion, even this weight cannot be given to it.


    This is false too, and it shows how these kind of people think one only has to go by "infallible" definitions. The truth is that it is just pure hypocrisy because when it suits them they say you only go by what's infallible but when it suits them they say you have to accept non-infallible things as well.

    Quote
    It seems to me that, regarding this discussion, the partisans of sede-vacantism should be more honest with their followers. Instead of presenting partial opinions of this or that Saint or Doctor as if they were definitive certainties, they should show their followers that the topic is a study in progress that will only be closed when the Church leaves the present day crisis and a good Pope gives a final word on the matter.


    It seems to me that you're nothing but a hypocrite.

    Isn't this the very thing YOU Guimareas, and all the other ones who oppose SV, do?

    You all "present partial opinions of this or that THEOLOGIAN as if they were definitive certainties".

    Putting Suarez, John of St. Thomas and others in a pedestal to dogmatize r&r? Putting all these THEOLOGIANS over CANONIZED SAINTS AND DOCTORS of the Church? Perverting St. Robert's own teaching on the matter? What?

    Quote
    Concluding this Part I, we see that with regard to the consideration of the Church as divine, we must limit ourselves to saying that the conciliar Popes are heretics, without drawing definitive conclusions about the loss of their powers of jurisdiction and orders.


    Nope, you either believe the Church failed and defected and isn't infallible or you believe these men are not Popes, there's no middle ground.





    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 06:59:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    There's no question but that the heretical pope issue lies in the realm of disputed speculative theology.  That's why I've repeatedly said that my SV leanings have NOTHING to do with the personal state of the V2 Popes.

    It has everything to do with the indefectibility of the Church, that a legitimate Pope and legitimate Council could not have done this to the Church.


    Interestingly, non-sedevacantists rarely discuss this. The issue nearly always ends up in a debate about the heterodox claimants remaining pope.


    Offline Pelele

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    « Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 08:47:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    There's no question but that the heretical pope issue lies in the realm of disputed speculative theology.  That's why I've repeatedly said that my SV leanings have NOTHING to do with the personal state of the V2 Popes.

    It has everything to do with the indefectibility of the Church, that a legitimate Pope and legitimate Council could not have done this to the Church.


    Interestingly, non-sedevacantists rarely discuss this. The issue nearly always ends up in a debate about the heterodox claimants remaining pope.


    You bet. They completely overlook and dismiss the fact that we don't even need to get into the issue of whether the "popes" are public manifest heretics or not.


    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 09:19:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    It has everything to do with the indefectibility of the Church, that a legitimate Pope and legitimate Council could not have done this to the Church
    .

    Is there a thread on CI discussing this point?