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Author Topic: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.  (Read 3328 times)

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Offline NishantXavier

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Priests since around 2007 “are clearly the most conservative cohort of priests we’ve seen in a long time,”, per the below. Did Summorum Pontificuм (issued in 2007) play a part in that? On the whole, was it good or bad for Tradition and the Church? Thoughts?

Article from: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/10/us/catholic-priests-conservative-politics.html

"On a sunny afternoon in May, Zachary Galante was sitting in a conference room in St. Francis de Sales Seminary with several other young men, talking about what it meant for them to choose the Catholic priesthood in the year 2024. The next morning, they would make lifelong promises of celibacy and obedience, and they were palpably elated by the prospect.
“It’s a beautiful life,” Deacon Galante, soon to become Father Galante, said.
There was a time where the church “maybe apologized for being Catholic,” he said later in the conversation. He and the other new priests agreed they were called to something different: advancing the Catholic faith, even the parts that could seem out of place in an increasingly hostile world. “The church is Catholic, and so we should announce that joyfully,” he said.
In an era of deep divisions in the American Catholic Church, and ongoing pain over the continuing revelations of sɛҳuąƖ abuse by priests over decades, there is increasing unity among the men joining the priesthood: They are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology, their liturgical tastes and their politics.
Priests ordained since 2010 “are clearly the most conservative cohort of priests we’ve seen in a long time,” said Brad Vermurlen, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of St. Thomas in Houston, who has studied the rightward shift of the American priesthood. Surveys tracking the opinions of priests have found that, starting in the 1980s, each new wave of priests in the United States is noticeably more conservative than the one before it, Dr. Vermurlen said.

More than 80 percent of priests ordained since 2020 describe themselves as theologically “conservative/orthodox” or “very conservative/orthodox,” according to a nationally representative survey of 3,500 priests published by the Catholic Project at the Catholic University of America. Foreign-born priests in the United States, a significant presence as ordination rates remain below replacement levels, are less conservative theologically than their American-born peers. But still, not a single surveyed priest who was ordained after 2020 described himself as “very progressive ..."

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2024, 12:02:02 PM »
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  • It was bad for Tradition, but it was good for the new-church-supporting-Indult communities.  The indult is not Traditional, no matter how you spin it.  Many younger Trads left Tradition for the Indult.  This was horrible.


    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #2 on: November 02, 2024, 02:30:51 PM »
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  • It was bad for Tradition, but it was good for the new-church-supporting-Indult communities.  The indult is not Traditional, no matter how you spin it.  Many younger Trads left Tradition for the Indult.  This was horrible.
    It has become the easy road for many "traditional" Catholics.  They do not get called names like schismatic or told they are not in "full communion".  They do not have to exercise fraternal charity in correcting the errors of their novus ordo brethren or drive hours away to go to Mass at inconvenient hours.  So yes, wonderful now but we all have to answer on judgment day.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #3 on: November 07, 2024, 12:50:05 AM »
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  • It was bad for Tradition, but it was good for the new-church-supporting-Indult communities.  The indult is not Traditional, no matter how you spin it.
    Prove it. Your statement is false and the Indult is traditional because (1) it celebrates the TLM (2) it respects the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church and understands the need to work through it - just like the naysayers were falsely saying Roe v Wade, Trump's imperfections etc means you can't work through the system, you are mistaken here in saying that e.g. the false attempts in the 70s to "ban the TLM" were not rightly overturned by Summorum Pontificuм. And happily, the TLM has continued to flourish and spread like never before in these last 15+ years. All who truly love Tradition would rejoice, like Bishop Fellay did for e.g. when H.E. said: "I rejoice whenever a Traditional Latin Mass is celebrated".

    Quote
    They do not have to exercise fraternal charity in correcting the errors of their novus ordo brethren

    One always has to exercise fraternal charity in correcting the errors of anyone, whether of oneself, of "novus ordo brethren", of sedes, of fellow indult trads, of non-Catholics, Prots, Orthos, non-Christians, Hindus, Muslims, atheists etc.

    But Summorum Pontificuм itself wasn't an error. It was the correction of an injustice and allowed the TLM to spread.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #4 on: November 07, 2024, 12:52:28 AM »
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  • https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7729

    "The Commissio Cardinalitia of 1986
    In 1986 Pope John Paul II appointed a commission of nine cardinals to examine the legal status of the Old Mass. The commission consisted of Agostino Cardinal Casaroli, Bernard Cardinal Gantin, Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer, Antonio Cardinal Innocenti, Silvio Cardinal Oddi, Petro Cardinal Palazzini, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Alfons Cardinal Stickler and Jozef Cardinal Tomko and it was instructed to examine whether the New Rite of Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI abrogated the Old Rite, and whether a bishop can prohibit his priests from celebrating the Old Mass.
    The commission met in December 1986. Eight of nine cardinals answered that the New Mass had not abrogated the Old Mass. The nine cardinals unanimously determined that Pope Paul VI never gave the bishops the authority to forbid priest from celebrating Mass according to the Missal of St Pius V. The commission judged the conditions for the 1984 indult too restrictive and proposed their relaxation. These conclusions served as functional guidelines for the Commission Ecclesia Dei, but they were never promulgated.
    In this context, it should be noted that the Holy See does recognize the right of the priest to celebrate the traditional Mass; this is borne out by the fact that whenever priests are unjustly suspended for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of their bishops, the Roman Curia always nullifies the penalty whenever the cases are appealed. It is the present jurisprudence of the Church that, upon appeal, any suspension that an Ordinary attempts to inflict on a priest for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of the bishop is automatically nullified."


    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #5 on: November 07, 2024, 02:51:23 AM »
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  • Prove it. Your statement is false and the Indult is traditional because (1) it celebrates the TLM (2) it respects the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church and understands the need to work through it - just like the naysayers were falsely saying Roe v Wade, Trump's imperfections etc means you can't work through the system, you are mistaken here in saying that e.g. the false attempts in the 70s to "ban the TLM" were not rightly overturned by Summorum Pontificuм. And happily, the TLM has continued to flourish and spread like never before in these last 15+ years. All who truly love Tradition would rejoice, like Bishop Fellay did for e.g. when H.E. said: "I rejoice whenever a Traditional Latin Mass is celebrated".

    One always has to exercise fraternal charity in correcting the errors of anyone, whether of oneself, of "novus ordo brethren", of sedes, of fellow indult trads, of non-Catholics, Prots, Orthos, non-Christians, Hindus, Muslims, atheists etc.

    But Summorum Pontificuм itself wasn't an error. It was the correction of an injustice and allowed the TLM to spread.
    The very valid and well docuмented doubts about the novos ordo sacraments should be enough to make anyone flee from the indult.

    The indulters who attend our SSPX look at you like you are from mars when you mention this, but the certain validity of the sacraments (with a few unfortunate exceptions) is the only difference remaining between the SSPX and the indulters. This division isn't only concerning the sacraments but also in the schools as there are many indult schools.  Marriages between indulters and SSPX parishoners are also a problem.  In France the annual 3 day Pentecost pilgrimage is from Chartres to Paris for the SSPX but Paris to Chartres for the indulters. In our chapel there are parishioners at both. The indulters like all liberals are constantly very very busy organising all the church sales, the choir and other events. The priest nevers mention the difference between the SSPX and indulters in sermons, which makes things even more complex for the conservative SSPX pew sitters.   
     
    The indulters and liberals that I know are very nice but can be quite condescending and i've long learnt that discussing with someone who cannot be bothered to study is a total waste of time.

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #6 on: November 07, 2024, 03:17:24 AM »
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  • Doubts? Lol. Let's say I doubt the Thuc Line's or CMRI and the sede orders. Will that be enough to make you "flee from the Thuc Line and CMRI". They tell you it is doubtful because they want you to believe it is doubtful so that indeed you will "flee from the dioceses/indult" and not to want help work toward the greater freedoms of all Priests to offer the TLM, like for e.g. Archbishop Lefebvre often worked, even from the 70s and 80s.

    Just one point should be enough to settle a real doubt and help arrive at certainty - well docuмented Eucharistic miracles that have converted even atheistic scientists to Catholic Christianity https://www.tumblarhouse.com/blogs/news/recent-eucharistic-miracles-science They had doubts about Christianity itself, then resolved those doubts and became Catholics. "Doubts" are not good, and they are to be settled by miracles or by authority.

    "6 Incredible Eucharistic Miracles That Happened Recently". SSPX has a detailed study that independently arrives at the same theological conclusion. That's why they now work with Indult and diocesan priests more extensively. Over the last 2 decades or so, the Society's priests read and mostly accepted the Indult arguments for their validity and why canonical recognition is at least beneficial. Today, SSPX and FSSP priests mostly hold the same theology. Since the SSPX and FSSP represent something like 80-90% of Tradition, it's safe to say most Traditional Priests today hold to Indult theology and/or accept that sacraments in the Indult Churches are valid and licit.

    The fact is, of the 400,000+ Priests in the universal Church, only maybe about 10% or less so far offer and know to offer the TLM. The goal should be, and this is where the naysaying sedes and other defeatists lose the ball completely with their shortsightedness just like on the abortion issue, for Traditional Priests to help train as many of these Priests as possible - as SSPX and FSSP Priests are admirably doing in many places - to offer TLMs in their Parish.

    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #7 on: November 07, 2024, 04:00:58 AM »
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  • Doubts? Lol. Let's say I doubt the Thuc Line's or CMRI and the sede orders. Will that be enough to make you "flee from the Thuc Line and CMRI". They tell you it is doubtful because they want you to believe it is doubtful so that indeed you will "flee from the dioceses/indult" and not to want help work toward the greater freedoms of all Priests to offer the TLM, like for e.g. Archbishop Lefebvre often worked, even from the 70s and 80s.

    Just one point should be enough to settle a real doubt and help arrive at certainty - well docuмented Eucharistic miracles that have converted even atheistic scientists to Catholic Christianity https://www.tumblarhouse.com/blogs/news/recent-eucharistic-miracles-science They had doubts about Christianity itself, then resolved those doubts and became Catholics. "Doubts" are not good, and they are to be settled by miracles or by authority.

    "6 Incredible Eucharistic Miracles That Happened Recently". SSPX has a detailed study that independently arrives at the same theological conclusion. That's why they now work with Indult and diocesan priests more extensively. Over the last 2 decades or so, the Society's priests read and mostly accepted the Indult arguments for their validity and why canonical recognition is at least beneficial. Today, SSPX and FSSP priests mostly hold the same theology. Since the SSPX and FSSP represent something like 80-90% of Tradition, it's safe to say most Traditional Priests today hold to Indult theology and/or accept that sacraments in the Indult Churches are valid and licit.

    The fact is, of the 400,000+ Priests in the universal Church, only maybe about 10% or less so far offer and know to offer the TLM. The goal should be, and this is where the naysaying sedes and other defeatists lose the ball completely with their shortsightedness just like on the abortion issue, for Traditional Priests to help train as many of these Priests as possible - as SSPX and FSSP Priests are admirably doing in many places - to offer TLMs in their Parish.

    I'll wait until Rome reconverts to Catholicsm before having anything to do them. If you were in my parish, I would minimise all contact with you and advise my children to do the same with your children.


    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #8 on: November 07, 2024, 04:07:34 AM »
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  • Your choice, but ok. The TLM did not regain its rights in 2007 because of running away, either from Rome or from others. It regained its rights, because of Pope Benedict XVI's good dispositions, but also because Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay kept persistently asking for it, and thus delivered this great victory for Tradition. 

    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #9 on: November 07, 2024, 04:20:37 AM »
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  • Your choice, but ok. The TLM did not regain its rights in 2007 because of running away, either from Rome or from others. It regained its rights, because of Pope Benedict XVI's good dispositions, but also because Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay kept persistently asking for it, and thus delivered this great victory for Tradition.
    You know nothing about Mgr Lefevbre. Here are dozens of quotes from him telling us to stay away from Rome, even if they grant us a mass and a bishop. 

    https://thecatacombs.freeforums.net/thread/638/archbishop-lefebvre-said-stay-away

    Since the moto proprio of Benedict XVI, the SSPX chapels and schools are full of condescending liberals who speak just like you. 

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #10 on: November 07, 2024, 04:28:14 AM »
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  • I can't recall being condescending to you, just explaining what I believe and why; but you seem to be being very condescending to me in doing the same, explaining what you believe and why. But sure, let's see what Archbishop Lefebvre said:

    +Lefebvre: "I THINK THAT, like all traditionalist Catholics, you would like now to hear how things stand; at what point relations are between the Priestly Society of St. Pius X and the Vatican in Rome. So I shall give you a rapid summary.

    Why do I maintain relations with Rome? Why do I keep going to Rome? Because I think that Rome is the center of Catholicism, because I think that there cannot be any Catholic Church without Rome. Consequently, if our purpose is to find a way of setting the Church straight again, it is by turning to Rome that maybe, with the grace of God, we may perhaps manage to set the situation straight. It is not one single bishop like myself who can set the whole situation straight in the Catholic Church. That is why I strive to keep on going to Rome and to plead the cause of Tradition."

    From: https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm

    So much for "staying away from Rome" at all costs. Take care not to fall into a practically sedevacantist ecclesiology. Wish you the best.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #11 on: November 07, 2024, 04:54:43 AM »
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  • I'll wait until Rome reconverts to Catholicsm before having anything to do them. If you were in my parish, I would minimise all contact with you and advise my children to do the same with your children.
    Doing that isn’t Catholic. That is cultish. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #12 on: November 07, 2024, 07:46:15 AM »
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  • St. John Cantius Parish is a model Indult parish that offers the TLM daily. It has benefited greatly from Summorum Pontificuм as have many 1000s of Priests and 100s of 1000s if not millions of Catholic faithful around the globe.

    https://x.com/prayandfast2/status/1854501227008037014/photo/1

    "St. John Cantius Church, Chicago, IL. Traditional Latin Mass offered daily.



    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #13 on: November 07, 2024, 09:27:12 AM »
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  • I can't recall being condescending to you, just explaining what I believe and why; but you seem to be being very condescending to me in doing the same, explaining what you believe and why. But sure, let's see what Archbishop Lefebvre said:

    +Lefebvre: "I THINK THAT, like all traditionalist Catholics, you would like now to hear how things stand; at what point relations are between the Priestly Society of St. Pius X and the Vatican in Rome. So I shall give you a rapid summary.

    Why do I maintain relations with Rome? Why do I keep going to Rome? Because I think that Rome is the center of Catholicism, because I think that there cannot be any Catholic Church without Rome. Consequently, if our purpose is to find a way of setting the Church straight again, it is by turning to Rome that maybe, with the grace of God, we may perhaps manage to set the situation straight. It is not one single bishop like myself who can set the whole situation straight in the Catholic Church. That is why I strive to keep on going to Rome and to plead the cause of Tradition."

    From: https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm

    So much for "staying away from Rome" at all costs. Take care not to fall into a practically sedevacantist ecclesiology. Wish you the best.
    That conference was in 1983, when Mgr Lefebvre still hoped that the new pope John Paul II would break from Paul VIs newchurch. Assisi changed everthing, bacause instead of pretending to be Catholic, Rome doubled down and made a mockery of every Catholic who had died for his faith. 


      

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Summorum Pontificuм 17 years on: Bane/Boon for the Roman Catholic Church.
    « Reply #14 on: November 07, 2024, 09:31:58 AM »
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  • The very valid and well docuмented doubts about the novos ordo sacraments should be enough to make anyone flee from the indult.

    The indulters who attend our SSPX look at you like you are from mars when you mention this, but the certain validity of the sacraments (with a few unfortunate exceptions) is the only difference remaining between the SSPX and the indulters. This division isn't only concerning the sacraments but also in the schools as there are many indult schools.  Marriages between indulters and SSPX parishoners are also a problem.  In France the annual 3 day Pentecost pilgrimage is from Chartres to Paris for the SSPX but Paris to Chartres for the indulters. In our chapel there are parishioners at both. The indulters like all liberals are constantly very very busy organising all the church sales, the choir and other events. The priest nevers mention the difference between the SSPX and indulters in sermons, which makes things even more complex for the conservative SSPX pew sitters. 
     
    The indulters and liberals that I know are very nice but can be quite condescending and i've long learnt that discussing with someone who cannot be bothered to study is a total waste of time.
    Godefroy, I am in complete agreement with you on this.
     
    There are two Traditional chapels in my city and the behavior, etiquette, and general worldview is night and day different. One is Independent and the other is Neo-SSPX. At the Neo-SSPX chapel there is no strict dress code, the parents are not considerate when their children are crying at the top of their little lungs and they make no attempt at pacifying them briefly stepping outside the doors of the sanctuary. During the sermon I am usually unable to hear the priest over the crying children. I understand the challenges of this but when I say there is no attempt there is no attempt. It gets to the point where I just tune out everything because paying attention is futile. 

    I am willing to bet that many of them are not uncompromising with regard to validity of holy orders and probably think the Indult or a “reverent” NO mass is a valid mass. 

    The Independent chapel is the exact opposite.

    This may sound petty to some but in my experience there is a huge difference. We are literally in the presence of Jesus Christ at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Show honor and respect.

     And while some may think it sounds cultish I am in agreement with you about being cautious who your children are close with. Forget human respect. Were trying to save our souls here.

    Discussing the problems of the indult with those who can't be bothered to confront the cold hard truth re: the positive doubt about the new rite of Holy Orders and Episcopal Consecration, or the New Mass are a waste of time and energy.

    Also, does your priest at the SSPX chapel fly through the Mass? The one here says Mass as if he is late for an appointment. It is unsettling, and there is no reason to even follow the missal sometimes. Have you experienced this with the neo-SSPX?

     God bless you.
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