Author Topic: Stumped: Jesus prays for us? (Read 3033 times)

Nishant · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2013, 12:02:54 AM »

I agree with Ladislaus in that Our Lord is not usually said to "pray" for us in that sense which we typically use of the Saints but, in His ascended Humanity, can be said to mediate and intercede for us with the Father in a unique capacity. Scripture and commentary.

Quote

Heb 7:25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.

[25] Make intercession: Christ, as man, continually maketh intercession for us, by representing his passion to his Father.

I don't agree that Pope Francis' thinking is Arian, that doesn't seem too likely. It's more probably like a case of imprecision and impromptu off-the-cuff remarks in these interviews and speeches, especially the other one where for some reason best known to himself he was trying to seek common ground with an atheist. In his Encyclical there were various statements on the Trinity, eternal Sonship of Christ, divine Maternity of Mary etc. Beside, I know the Pope also led an extended Eucharistic adoration for peace in Syria a while back and you can't worship Our Lord, especially in the Blessed Sacrament, without truly believing Him to be divine. Even in that other interview or whatever it was he'd said "Jesus is God's incarnation" before adding "but" and something else about the Father being light and Creator. Imprecise, yes. Heretical, no.

StCeciliasGirl · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2013, 10:36:29 AM »

He didn't write the encyclical. That's all Ratzinger.

On the actions, this Eucharistic Adoration in Syria, I just fear that without the words, it means nothing. If wordless actions meant something, we'd have to assume Wojtyla was a practicing Moslem. And Buddhist.

I think this is why liturgy and, particularly, the Creeds, are so very important. Of the three claimants of my lifetime, I've heard the Nicene said ONLY by BXVI/Ratzinger, and BXVI even made it an official prayer for this supposed year of faith. That meant something. In fact, I hesitate on questioning BXVI to this day because in my mind's ear, I still hear his voice singing the Pater Noster, saying the Creeds; in my mind's eye, I see him genuflecting. (Of course, I see him quitting too, and that lightening bolt of warning from God right afterwards.)

I've never seen Bergoglio sign the cross, much less SAY he believes Jesus is God. I wondered if he believed in "an historical Jesus", but then finally he said +Jesus' Holy Name. Unfortunately, it was followed by "is your friend," and other heretical-sounding Protestantisms that in no way underscored the required worship of +Jesus.

And his handling of the liturgy, such as it were... he offered a beach ball. You can't undo that; that will be severely dealt with, I'm sure. I imagine beach balls slamming him for eternity, in fact.

But when has Bergoglio SAID anything that would lead you to believe he thinks of Jesus as God? We know he thinks of Jesus as a "friend". So did Satan in the desert after Jesus' 40 days fasting. But if you physically can not genuflect, your lips had better be moving in WORSHIP; you need to be saying the Creed. Out loud. God knows this guy says everything else that flits through his mind out loud; he should say the Creed. "God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten not Made, Of ONE SUBSTANCE With The Father..." <--- THAT part. The Nicene.

2Vermont · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2013, 03:13:45 PM »

Eh, guys, as much as I would believe that Francis said yet another comment that didn't square with Traditional Catholic Teaching, I found this in the Catechism of Trent:

Further we have as our chief advocate, Christ the Lord, who is ever ready to assist us, as we read in St. John: If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the just; and he is the propitiation for our sins.' In like manner Paul the Apostle says: Christ Jesus, that died, yea, that is risen also again, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. To Timothy he writes: For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus; and to the Hebrews he writes: Wherefore, it behoved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high�priest before God. Unworthy, then, as we are, of obtaining our requests, yet considering and resting our claims upon the dignity of our great Mediator and Intercessor, Jesus Christ, we should hope and trust most confidently, that, through His merits, God will grant us all that we ask in the proper way.

Here's hoping this actually posts.....

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2013, 01:05:40 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Eh, guys, as much as I would believe that Francis said yet another comment that didn't square with Traditional Catholic Teaching, I found this in the Catechism of Trent:

Further we have as our chief advocate, Christ the Lord, who is ever ready to assist us, as we read in St. John: If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the just; and he is the propitiation for our sins.' In like manner Paul the Apostle says: Christ Jesus, that died, yea, that is risen also again, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. To Timothy he writes: For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus; and to the Hebrews he writes: Wherefore, it behoved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high�priest before God. Unworthy, then, as we are, of obtaining our requests, yet considering and resting our claims upon the dignity of our great Mediator and Intercessor, Jesus Christ, we should hope and trust most confidently, that, through His merits, God will grant us all that we ask in the proper way.

Here's hoping this actually posts.....

As God Jesus doesn't pray for us but as man He can. We pray to God, we do not ask him to pray for us, but we do ask him to help us, and thank Him and tell Him we love Him. He offered the once for all sacrifice on the cross to the Father as man and that sacrifice is renewed on all the altars of valid Priests throughout the world but we do not think of praying to Jesus as if he is inferior to the Father. It is not like we ask Him to go to the Father and intercede as if He is inferior to the Father and not the True God Himself.

The official prayers of the Church give us the example, they do not have Jesus "pray for us". Not now in his final glorified state. He played plenty for us as man. He is the source of grace and brings people to salvation, he does not have to implore the Father to do so as the Blessed Virgin Mary does.

Am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong. I know the more one talks about the members of the Holy Trinity the more a chance there is to drop a heresy without realizing it.

2Vermont · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2013, 03:22:20 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: 2Vermont
Eh, guys, as much as I would believe that Francis said yet another comment that didn't square with Traditional Catholic Teaching, I found this in the Catechism of Trent:

Further we have as our chief advocate, Christ the Lord, who is ever ready to assist us, as we read in St. John: If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the just; and he is the propitiation for our sins.' In like manner Paul the Apostle says: Christ Jesus, that died, yea, that is risen also again, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. To Timothy he writes: For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus; and to the Hebrews he writes: Wherefore, it behoved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high�priest before God. Unworthy, then, as we are, of obtaining our requests, yet considering and resting our claims upon the dignity of our great Mediator and Intercessor, Jesus Christ, we should hope and trust most confidently, that, through His merits, God will grant us all that we ask in the proper way.

Here's hoping this actually posts.....

As God Jesus doesn't pray for us but as man He can. We pray to God, we do not ask him to pray for us, but we do ask him to help us, and thank Him and tell Him we love Him. He offered the once for all sacrifice on the cross to the Father as man and that sacrifice is renewed on all the altars of valid Priests throughout the world but we do not think of praying to Jesus as if he is inferior to the Father. It is not like we ask Him to go to the Father and intercede as if He is inferior to the Father and not the True God Himself.

The official prayers of the Church give us the example, they do not have Jesus "pray for us". Not now in his final glorified state. He played plenty for us as man. He is the source of grace and brings people to salvation, he does not have to implore the Father to do so as the Blessed Virgin Mary does.

Am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong. I know the more one talks about the members of the Holy Trinity the more a chance there is to drop a heresy without realizing it.

The Council of Trent Catechism was not referring to Jesus as man. Also, doesn't the Holy Spirit intercede for us as well?

Was Francis saying we should ask Jesus to pray for us or that He does pray for us? I think those are two different things.

StCeciliasGirl · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2013, 07:08:25 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

The Council of Trent Catechism was not referring to Jesus as man. Also, doesn't the Holy Spirit intercede for us as well?

Was Francis saying we should ask Jesus to pray for us or that He does pray for us? I think those are two different things.

You're right that Jesus is THE Intercessor insofar as there is only ONE path to God (no Buddhas, no shortcuts, etc); His intercessions are more direct than other intercessions, like intercessions our friends or even the Saints might make for us. Jesus' intercessions for those who would have it is His Sacrifice, the Eucharist; His washing our sins; His provision of the Church; His making us an eternal abode in Heaven; etc very direct actions. I've heard the Passion referred to as a prayer itself (though it might have been Wojtyla who said it; I was a kid, but I thought the idea was neat).

And God the Holy Ghost intercedes directly, as well: He gives us strength, speaks words for us (and, as the Nicene Creed says, for the prophets). Again, direct actions are God's intercessions for us. That's how I've always understood it, and I just don't think Jesus or the Holy Ghost has to worry about God saying 'no' to a 'prayer' they might make, as they are one with God.

And indeed had Bergoglio said, "LET Jesus intercede in your lives by going to Mass and partaking of the Eucharist," I'd be fine with that. But what Bergoglio SAID (again, I'm beyond bothered that he has yet to suggest that Jesus is an intrinsic part of the God Triune):

Quote from: Bergoglio on the THREE RAPPORTS OF JESUS

Jesus and the Father, Jesus and his Apostles, Jesus and the people.

WHAT? That's new; some weird "trinity" of rapports (relationships) Bergoglio thinks Jesus has, that is completely made up out of thin air: Jesus has a "relationship" with God, and another "relationship" with the apostles, and yet another relationship with "the people". (Which people? Who knows; I guess ALL people.) Maybe one could really stretch that to mean that God has an "equal" relationship to Himself, and a "High Priest" relationship to the clergy, and then the "brother" relationship to all people. But I think that's weird. Why make up new stuff when he could just sign the cross and get on with his "hunger eradication ministry" (which is, in itself, anti-Christian).

Further, on the state of Jesus' body right now, at first it sounds okay. Passable. And then Bergoglio nosedives with his "as if":

Quote from: Vatican Radio quoting Bergoglio

He is a person, a man with flesh like our flesh, but in the glory of God. He said Jesus has wounds on his hands, on his feet and on his side. And when he prays he shows the Father the price of our salvation. Pope Francis said: “it is as if he is saying: Father, may this not be lost!”

MORE new stuff. Is this guy really thinking that God gave Himself to save the many and fears His Sacrifice might in some way be "lost" because He Himself is ...mean?

There's no nice way to put his: God the Son said he was coming back to do some harvesting and BURN the rest. God the Son is not worried about "losing" the purpose of His Passion. God came to FIND the lost, but He seemed PRETTY CLEAR that some people wouldn't be having a nice afterlife, and that's okay because that's GOD'S WILL. And Jesus does the will of the Father.

The way Bergoglio words it, you'd think Jesus "the friend" is asking God "the nice" to spare all the people so THIS (the PASSION) won't be lost.

I don't think Jesus fears that Jesus is going to break bad and "lose" anything, or in any way FORGET the PASSION of Himself.

Either Bergoglio has NO GRASP of this very basic concept, OR, Bergoglio has TOO GOOD a GRASP of the Passion and is purposefully mucking it up to lead astray the sheep he's supposed to be in charge of. It makes me sick.

Quote from: Vatican Radio quoting Bergoglio

And the Pope says he prays to Jesus to pray for him and intercede for him.

All "the Pope" would have to do, were he to want to "pray to Jesus", is confect the Eucharist (more likely, get someone to confect it for him), and eat it. THAT is prayer for Jesus' intercession.

Our liturgies, as Lover of Truth points out, do NOT say we pray for Jesus to pray for us to the Father.

The way I've understood it from my earliest memory, the priest standing in persona Christi for the laity OFFERS HIMSELF (again, in persona Christi) "MY BODY MY BLOOD" directly TO GOD who's on the Mercy Seat (the altar), and that's the prayer. That's the intercession.

A Modernist with a priest running around the "audience" in a clown costume may indeed have little hope of understanding the intercession Christ made for us. I get that. I feel sorry for them. That's why I CRINGE when Bergie and his devotees say that the liturgy isn't important, only the feelings you get.

But I do NOT feel sorry for any so-called clergy including Bergoglio who supposedly STUDIED, know better, and therefore purposefully lead the flock towards a cliff of heresy.

(I've probably Joan of Arc'ed in here somewhere because I'm not a theologian; just saying my peace.)

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2013, 10:55:06 PM »

Quote from: StCeciliasGirl

So it legitimately sounds a bit like Arianism to others, as well?

This seems even bolder to me, somehow. I suppose because it was part of a "service", and not just an interview.

It just sounds so wrong. Crusade wrong.

He is an Arian you can bet your life on that.

2Vermont · « **Reply #22 on:** November 01, 2013, 04:41:12 AM »

SCG: I think you have good points for sure and I'm not totally okay with what Francis said. I think if he had only said that Christ intercedes/prays for us, that would have been fine. However, going back to the OP, it does sound like he says that we should ASK Jesus to pray for us. There is definitely something "off" with this advice/his words, and if this was the ONLY time he said something "odd" in reference to the Second Person of the Trinity, I might give it a pass. However, we already know that he speaks of Jesus in an odd (ie. non-Catholic) way.

I think what I am finding myself TRYING to do is not jump immediately to the conclusion that he said something heretical. I think more folks will want to listen to what we have to say if we're not seen as always making that conclusion right off the bat (although I know that here we are pretty much preaching to the choir). Having said that, this is tough for sure. I literally have to talk to myself, calm down, read carefully, do some research if it's not blatant, etc. before coming to my conclusion. Granted, there is already so much wrong with what he's said in the past that it's natural to just expect heresy at this point, but for some reason I feel the need to be sure of what I'm talking about. If I offer something that doesn't jive with what others say here it is only to bring something else to the plate that maybe we as a group haven't thought about (it might be a good point, I might be completely off base).

Nishant · « **Reply #23 on:** November 01, 2013, 04:10:19 PM »

Quote

But when has Bergoglio SAID anything that would lead you to believe he thinks of Jesus as God?

Ok, that's a fair question, StCeciliasgirl. I don't follow much of anything these Popes say so for a second there, I paused. And then in a simple google search it took me all of 5 seconds more to find this, from about a couple of days ago.

Quote

Pope Francis concluded his homily by turning to Mary, recalling her attitude after the death of her son until his resurrection three days later, saying that “Hope is what Mary, Mother of God, sheltered in her heart during the darkest time of her life: from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning.”

“That is hope: she had it. And that hope has renewed everything. May God grant us that grace.”

So the Pope obviously believes the Blessed Mother is the Mother of God which means he believes in the divinity of Her Son.

And this from a while earlier:

Quote

The Pope drew inspiration for his homily from the Gospel of John in which Jesus tells the crowd that "he who believes has eternal life". He says the passage is an opportunity for us to examine our conscience. He noted that very often people say they generally believe in God. "But who is this God you believe in?" asked Pope Francis confronting the evanescence of certain beliefs with the reality of a true faith:

"An ‘all over the place - god, a 'god-spray' so to speak, who is a little bit everywhere but who no-one really knows anything about. We believe in God who is Father, who is Son, who is Holy Spirit. We believe in Persons, and when we talk to God we talk to Persons: or I speak with the Father, or I speak with the Son, or I speak with the Holy Spirit. And this is the faith. "

So the Pope obviously believes in the Holy Trinity. There were more but I omit them.

So no, I don't agree with you on this or with those who would claim the Pope is an Arian. I wonder if tradblogs and the other sites that took up this claim read much of what the Pope has written or spoken themselves. They ought to either correct themselves or offer some explanation, because the cause of truth and Tradition does not need to be spread by a lie and distortion. The Pope is not an Arian and he shouldn't be called one, whatever his other failings.

But beside all this, I also disagree that Pope Francis didn't author his Encyclical, he certainly composed a substantial part of it himself, but even if he didn't, he published the entire thing under his name, he obviously agreed personally with every word in it or he would have changed something somewhere to bring it in line with his own views. And that Encyclical contains orthodox Trinitarian Christology.

Matto · « **Reply #24 on:** November 01, 2013, 04:20:04 PM »

Thank you Nishant for finding quotes where Francis says he believed Jesus was God. I questioned whether or not he believed that Jesus was God in a post because I read several quotes that seemed to imply that Francis did not believe that Jesus was God. It is good to see that whatever other heresies he may hold, he is not an Arian.

2Vermont · « **Reply #25 on:** November 01, 2013, 04:43:51 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Thank you Nishant for finding quotes where Francis says he believed Jesus was God. I questioned whether or not he believed that Jesus was God in a post because I read several quotes that seemed to imply that Francis did not believe that Jesus was God. It is good to see that whatever other heresies he may hold, he is not an Arian.

Don't forget that Modernists are really good at confusing folks by saying contradictory things. Just because he says things the right way some times doesn't convince me of anything. We should NEVER read/hear a pope say anything contrary to the Faith. EVERYTHING he says should teach the same truth.

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #26 on:** November 01, 2013, 05:16:45 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

Quote
But when has Bergoglio SAID anything that would lead you to believe he thinks of Jesus as God?

Ok, that's a fair question, StCeciliasgirl. I don't follow much of anything these Popes say so for a second there, I paused. And then in a simple google search it took me all of 5 seconds more to find this, from about a couple of days ago.

Quote
Pope Francis concluded his homily by turning to Mary, recalling her attitude after the death of her son until his resurrection three days later, saying that “Hope is what Mary, Mother of God, sheltered in her heart during the darkest time of her life: from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning.”

“That is hope: she had it. And that hope has renewed everything. May God grant us that grace.”

So the Pope obviously believes the Blessed Mother is the Mother of God which means he believes in the divinity of Her Son.

And this from a while earlier:

Quote
The Pope drew inspiration for his homily from the Gospel of John in which Jesus tells the crowd that "he who believes has eternal life". He says the passage is an opportunity for us to examine our conscience. He noted that very often people say they generally believe in God. "But who is this God you believe in?" asked Pope Francis confronting the evanescence of certain beliefs with the reality of a true faith:

"An ‘all over the place - god, a 'god-spray' so to speak, who is a little bit everywhere but who no-one really knows anything about. We believe in God who is Father, who is Son, who is Holy Spirit. We believe in Persons, and when we talk to God we talk to Persons: or I speak with the Father, or I speak with the Son, or I speak with the Holy Spirit. And this is the faith. "

So the Pope obviously believes in the Holy Trinity. There were more but I omit them.

So no, I don't agree with you on this or with those who would claim the Pope is an Arian. I wonder if tradblogs and the other sites that took up this claim read much of what the Pope has written or spoken themselves. They ought to either correct themselves or offer some explanation, because the cause of truth and Tradition does not need to be spread by a lie and distortion. The Pope is not an Arian and he shouldn't be called one, whatever his other failings.

But beside all this, I also disagree that Pope Francis didn't author his Encyclical, he certainly composed a substantial part of it himself, but even if he didn't, he published the entire thing under his name, he obviously agreed personally with every word in it or he would have changed something somewhere to bring it in line with his own views. And that Encyclical contains orthodox Trinitarian Christology.

No the man is an Arian, regardless of whatever he might say in the future. The man can't be trusted whatsoever, you can't have it both ways. What if I decide to "re-interpret" what he said, just like many interpret his heretical writings as Orthodox. However his "orthodox" statements, can in the same manner be re-interpreted. Auctoritatem Fidei of Pius VI, says we interpret ambiguity in its heretical plain english.

Unbelievable how gullible some people can be... The very fact that it was approved by the "Holy See", should be enough especially when written to the Universal Church for the Catholic to submit to its teachings and recommendations. However, very rightly so +Fellay says that "will be spiritual ѕυιcιdє" to follow the "Vicar of Christ." Just pause for a moment and think about that... We are not talking about a man who openly is fornicating, or a manifest public sinner commanding everyone to sin (which you could licitly resist him). Let's suppose for a second that Bergoglio was a true Pope, and he would order Catholics to use contraceptives. That in itself would be a sinful command and could be legitimately resisted. To somehow make a leap from evil commands, to resisting his teachings as a Pastor of all Nations, just baffles the mind... I am speechless seriously, I don't know what else to say. I would have to venture that the modern anti-Popes in so far as image goes are a whole lot more virtuous then most of our Renaissance true Popes.

Some people simply believe that no matter what happens that he cannot lose his office. Sedeplenism every passing day is looking more and more ridiculous, all the arguments they had before are becoming useless. The reality is pretty clear and whoever is able to understand it, but refuses to enter through it. God will be the Judge...

Ora Ora Ora

+Pax+

Happy All Saints Day.

SJB · « **Reply #27 on:** November 01, 2013, 07:42:57 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matto
Thank you Nishant for finding quotes where Francis says he believed Jesus was God. I questioned whether or not he believed that Jesus was God in a post because I read several quotes that seemed to imply that Francis did not believe that Jesus was God. It is good to see that whatever other heresies he may hold, he is not an Arian.

Don't forget that Modernists are really good at confusing folks by saying contradictory things. Just because he says things the right way some times doesn't convince me of anything. We should NEVER read/hear a pope say anything contrary to the Faith. EVERYTHING he says should teach the same truth.

He's a modernist. A modernist can be alternately an Arian and non-Arian.

poche · « **Reply #28 on:** November 02, 2013, 12:33:47 AM »

In the Mystical City of God, Maria de Agreda said that Jesus prayed for Herod as he was fleeing to Egypt. The result was that God blessded him and did not give him the chastizements and punishments that he deserved.

poche · « **Reply #29 on:** November 02, 2013, 01:05:30 AM »

John Chapter 17;

1

1 2 When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you,

2

3 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.

3

4 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

4

I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do.

5

Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.

6

"I revealed your name 5 to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

7

Now they know that everything you gave me is from you,

8

because the words you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them and truly understood that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.

9

I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours,

10

and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.

11

And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.

12

When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13

But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely.

14

I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.

15

6 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.

16

They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.

17

Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.

18

As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.

19

And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.

20

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

21

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

22

And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,

23

I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

24

Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am 7 they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

25

Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me.

26

I made known to them your name and I will make it known, 8 that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXP.HTM