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Offline StCeciliasGirl

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Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
« on: October 28, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »
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  • Frank 28 Oct talk

    Quote
    (Vatican Radio) At the centre of Pope Francis’ homily on Monday morning was the passage from the Gospel of Luke during which Jesus remained in prayer throughout the whole night before choosing the twelve apostles, and he pointed out that Jesus continues to pray and to intercede for us.

    Speaking to those gathered at Casa Santa Marta for Mass, the Pope said that by praying to God to choose his apostles, Jesus was “putting together his team together” – and afterwards a great number of people came to be with Him and to be healed by Him, because “power was coming Him and healing them all”. And he referred to three different rapports Jesus has: “Jesus and the Father, Jesus and his Apostles, Jesus and the people”. And the Pope pointed out that “Jesus prayed to the Father for the Apostles and for the people”. And he said: he is still praying.

    Jesus has saved us, he said, with his prayers, with his sacrifice, with his life. He is gone now and he continues to pray – the Pope said – but does that mean that Jesus is a spirit? Jesus – he underlined – is not a spirit! He is a person, a man with flesh like our flesh, but in the glory of God. He said Jesus has wounds on his hands, on his feet and on his side. And when he prays he shows the Father the price of our salvation. Pope Francis said: “it is as if he is saying: Father, may this not be lost!”

    So prayer stems from Jesus who prays and intercede for us.

    “We often say to each other: pray for me. I need prayers. I have so many problems”. And that is good – Francis pointed out – “because we are brothers and we must pray for each other”.

    And the Pope says he prays to Jesus to pray for him and intercede for him.

    He concluded saying that He prays for all of us, and he does so courageously, showing the Father the price of our redemption: his wounds.

    We must think about this – concluded the Pope – and we must thank the Lord. We must thank him for giving us a brother who prays for us and intercedes for us. And speaking to Jesus we must say: “Lord, you have saved me. And now pray for me”. “It is to him we must entrust our problems, our life and many other things so that He may take them to the Father”.


    I suppose I shouldn't have looked at a Frank sermon had best stay away from such sites as Vatican Radio, but, well, now I'm physically ill-feeling, and I've got to ask:

    Who would Jesus pray TO?

    I know He prayed ON EARTH. But then He rose again and ascended into Heaven &c. I've always prayed TO +Jesus God, and also asked the Saints for intercession. I know we pray in nomine Christis, but even as a toddler that was one thing that was clear as day to me. The Trinity.

    Even the Protestants seem to understand that +Jesus DOES actions (That song, "Jesus take the wheel" — they don't sing, "Jesus, pray that someone else take the wheel".)

    Doesn't this seem a bit like what got ironed out at Nicaea in the 4th C?
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline Mabel

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 11:13:51 AM »
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  • That is pretty troubling given his previous statements on the nature of the Triniity.


    Offline OHCA

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 11:32:49 AM »
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  • I got the impression from his "the Father is my Being" and "Jesus is my teacher and pastor" comments in the infamous interview that he does not hold Catholic beliefs regarding the Holy Trinity.

    Matthew 7:13-20

    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 12:49:42 PM »
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  • So it legitimately sounds a bit like Arianism to others, as well?

    This seems even bolder to me, somehow. I suppose because it was part of a "service", and not just an interview.

    It just sounds so wrong. Crusade wrong.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline Matto

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 01:41:13 PM »
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  • Yes, this seems strange. Whenever we pray a litany we always ask Jesus to "have mercy on us" and we ask the saints including Mary to "pray for us."
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 02:17:57 PM »
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  • Someone just needs to ask Pope Francis what his interpretation of the Holy Trinity is.  

    The guy says so many troubling things that we don't want to deduce from his past quotes.  We're still in the "wait and see" mode.  Of course, tomorrow or the next few days will bring more troubling quotes.




    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 02:32:20 PM »
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  • Everything is relative.  Anything can mean anything at any given time.  Nothing really matters.  Truth, errors.  Right, wrong.  Good, evil.  Doctrine, heresy.  God, Satan.  Whatever man.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 03:01:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Everything is relative.  Anything can mean anything at any given time.  Nothing really matters.  Truth, errors.  Right, wrong.  Good, evil.  Doctrine, heresy.  God, Satan.  Whatever man.


    Hey Lover of Truth, looks like Pope Francis hacked your sight and answered the question....

     :roll-laugh1:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 03:50:32 PM »
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  • Jesus was said to be "praying" for us in the Gospel of St. John.  Yet the Latin word there is "rogo" and not "oro".

    Nevertheless, over the years, the term pray has taken on a specific theological meaning so that it should NOT be used of Jesus.

    Jesus INTERCEDES for us with the Father, but is never said to "PRAY" for us.  Could we ask our Lady to "have mercy on us"?  In a way, she can have mercy (from the Latin misericordia or pity / compassion), but mercy has taken on a specific theological meaning whereby it's only ever used of God in any official context (e.g., prayer or liturgical text), since it now connotes forgiveness of sins, which only God can do.

    At the very least this represents Bergoglio's complete theological incompetence and muddle-headedness.  At worst it could be another do to suggest that his thinking is Arian.

    Offline reconquest

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 04:00:01 PM »
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  • The recent string of troubling statements isn't surprising given the close association between Arianism and Kosherness.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline Incredulous

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #10 on: October 28, 2013, 06:03:09 PM »
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  • Frank (a.k.a. Bergy) needs to double-check with an authentic Baptized Catholic before he comes out and says these things.

    Jesus, the Second person of the Holy Trinity is God and we pray for his mercy... right?

    Why if old Frank is not careful, the faithful might come to the conclusion that he's... not a real pope.   :thinking:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #11 on: October 28, 2013, 06:18:21 PM »
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  • Tradblogs has a short take: http://tradblogs.blogspot.com/2013/10/conciliar-church-arian-pope.html

    When Francis first commented in a way that seemed to make an exaggerated distinction between the Father and the Son (in the La Repubblica interview) I thought that particular part of the quote was simply the result of him being a sloppy and mindless theologian who's too keen to volunteer his amateur opinion on things... now after this comment, it really does look like he views Our Lord Jesus Christ as some sort of mystical brother to mankind and prophet-- not the Son of God.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #12 on: October 28, 2013, 10:29:18 PM »
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  • He's probably not smart enough to even understand what Arianism is.  I'm actually starting to suspect that he doesn't believe Jesus to be a son of God in any sense different than we are sons of God.

    I my days at Jesuit High School, I met many Jesuits who didn't really believe that Jesus was God.

    Good old Franz Josef Van Beeck at Loyola University of Chicago.  I suppose I was a masochist to go from a Jesuit High School to a Jesuit University.

    He was teaching that the Gospels were written after 70 AD.  I asked him what the evidence for that was.  He responded by saying that it was due to references in the Gospels to the Fall of Jerusalem.  So I answered, "You mean the prophecies of Our Lord?  So you're saying that you don't believe that Jesus, being God, was capable of knowing the future?"  He gritted his teeth like he wanted to kill me.

    At another time, he kept talking about contradictions among the different Gospels.  So I asked him to point one out.  So he said, "If the angel told Mary in Luke that she would conceive of the Holy Spirit, then how was it that in Matthew Joseph didn't know where Mary's child had come from?"  I calmly responded, "She didn't tell him."  You could practically hear him dropping a load in his pants.

    One of my brothers, who went to the same Jesuit High School said, "Ah, we met Francis years ago, and many Francises, at St. Ignatius."

    I remember another Jesuit priest asking the class, "Does a Mass takes place if the priest celebrates it without anyone else present?"  After about five heretical responses, I raised my hand and said, "Of course it does." [I was the first to say that.]  He said, "Well, the Church would agree with you."

    He used to crack himself up by telling the following story in class:  Some modernist Jesuit theologian was stunned by an announcement that archeologists had discovered the bones of Jesus.  Another modernist asked him why that would shock him so much.  He responded, "I just can't believe it.  He actually existed."

    Offline Mabel

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    Stumped: Jesus prays for us?
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 11:05:26 PM »
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  • We know a couple of old Carmelites, they say the Novus Ordo, but still, one of my favorite quotes from one of their somewhat liberal priests "The Jesuits?! They aren't even Catholic!"

    Pretty bad coming from a Carmelite whose order is also rife with modernism.

    Offline Charlemagne

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    « Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 11:10:17 PM »
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  • Just the latest installment of The Francis Files. I just hope he keeps spewing his non-Catholic BS so that his myopic defenders eventually have to admit the obvious: the man is an apostate. Of course, his apologists would defend him if he came out onto the balcony of St. Peter's and announced that he would be canonizing Judas Iscariot. But hey, Roger Mahony and Timothy Dolan are in communion with him, right?
    "Kindness is for fools! They [modernists] want to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they ought to be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity. It is a struggle, a duel." -- Pope St. Pius X

     

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