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Offline TCat

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« on: August 04, 2013, 03:16:55 PM »
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  • So this is a theory I am wondering about.
    I think the Vatican 2 ideology is so deeply entrenched into the mainstream church that the church will go down the road of apostacy unless some cardinal somewhere breaks away and becomes the leader of a traditionalist church. Traditionalists should ultimately break away from the current "pope" and start their own hierarchy. But what I am wondering is, is there a Catholic contingency plan for a situation where those who would elect a true pope are unwilling to do so? Is the church so fragile as just to take the cardinals and the "pope" contradicting tradition to destroy the entire body and prevent any possibility of a future legit pope and true doctrine?
    Could a group of traditionalists get together in a provisional conclave and elect a new pope that stood for pre-vatican2 doctrine? Should there be some sort of world organisation of sedevacantists for this purpose?
    I find it hard to just lie down and die and think this is the end of the world, I think we ought to do something to ensure the church survives into the future.
    Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux! Ne Draco Sit Mihi Dux!

    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 03:23:39 PM »
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  •  :surprised: :confused1:So, what, exactly, is the "Resistance"??  Archbishop Lefebvre started the SSPX because???? :incense: :pray:

     :fryingpan: :heretic:What you suggest has been tried over 500 years ago by some fellow named Martin Luther! :whistleblower: :facepalm:
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline TCat

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    « Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 03:43:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    :surprised: :confused1:So, what, exactly, is the "Resistance"??  Archbishop Lefebvre started the SSPX because???? :incense: :pray:


    The SSPX could be the organisation that ensures the survival of tradition, it is certainly the biggest as far as I know, but I don't think they would be willing to follow a new pope OR somehow make a new pope, they want to be part of the mainstream church but not accept Vatican 2. Sooner or later they are gonna have to decide between Catholic doctrine and Vatican 2 hierarchy, the two become more distant with every passing day.
    Quote from: Frances

     :fryingpan: :heretic:What you suggest has been tried over 500 years ago by some fellow named Martin Luther! :whistleblower: :facepalm:

    So we just give up and either accept an outrageous pope or become sedevacantists and think that its the end of the world and the church is gone?

    Surely it takes more than the defection of the top hierarchy to destroy the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church? :geezer:
    Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux! Ne Draco Sit Mihi Dux!

    Offline reconquest

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    « Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 03:48:09 PM »
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  • Sedevacantists don't think the Church is gone.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 04:08:47 PM »
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  • In fact, it is my understanding with CMRI they will not participate with any election, they have faith that God will work out this crisis in His perfect time.  


    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 04:11:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    :surprised: :confused1:So, what, exactly, is the "Resistance"??  Archbishop Lefebvre started the SSPX because???? :incense: :pray:

     :fryingpan: :heretic:What you suggest has been tried over 500 years ago by some fellow named Martin Luther! :whistleblower: :facepalm:


    Martin Luther did not try to elect a new pope, and he presented new doctrines, this is not equivalent with the sedevacantist position.

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 04:18:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    In fact, it is my understanding with CMRI they will not participate with any election, they have faith that God will work out this crisis in His perfect time.  


    That is true.

    I think that the only people who suggest this are those unfamiliar with extraordinary papal elections. There are legitimate ways to get a true pope, none of them involve traditionalist clergy. I think people are well meaning in their desire to have a a pope and in their submission to his office and that is admirable but there are rules to this, we can't and won't usurp the laws and role of the Church.

    The sedevacantist position is a response, not a solution. Myrna, you've pointed out one of the reasons the CMRI is so level and respectable.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 04:21:25 PM »
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  • Bless you for your zeal, but you need not worry that the Church will die.  Christ has promised it wouldn't.  We will 'continue' the Church the same way lay Catholics always have, by living our faith and practicing it.  


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    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    « Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 02:28:09 PM »
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  • Even if the Mass and most sacraments and the hierarchy disappear, we have Baptism, a record of infallible de fide teachings from unquestionably valid councils and popes, the writings of the saints, the Clementine Vulgate and Doway-Rhemes Bibles, and the Rosary and Brown Scapular and the Act of Contrition. The True Church is indefectible. Some will argue that under those circumstances it would lose its mark of visibility, but I'm not so sure.
    "Jesus was the fruit of Mary, as Elizabeth expressed it: 'Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.' Whoever wishes for the fruit, must go to the tree; whoever wishes for Jesus must go to Mary; and he who finds Mary, also certain

    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 02:32:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: TCat
    Could a group of traditionalists get together in a provisional conclave and elect a new pope that stood for pre-vatican2 doctrine?


    This has been tried. They elected this man.

    This was tried by another group also. That group elected Lucian Pulvermacher.

    Then there is also the Palmarian Catholic Church who had a pope who I think was supposedly chosen by divine revelation.
    In a Station of the Metro
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    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 02:38:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: TCat
    Could a group of traditionalists get together in a provisional conclave and elect a new pope that stood for pre-vatican2 doctrine?


    This has been tried. They elected this man.

    This was tried by another group also. That group elected Lucian Pulvermacher.

    Then there is also the Palmarian Catholic Church who had a pope who I think was supposedly chosen by divine revelation.


    It was the rotten fruit of an illegal conclave.  If we are to have a Pope again it will either be through an act of God, or through a legal election with the electors who have the Divine right to elect.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


     

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