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Author Topic: ST. VINCENT FERRER WAS NEVER A SEDEVACANTIST: True Story of Vincent and Benedict  (Read 932 times)

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Offline RomanTheo

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Was St. Vincent Ferrer a Sedevacantist?


For years, Sedevacantists have been spreading the myth that St. Vincent Ferrer was a “theoretical and practical Sedevacantist” - that is, that the Saint used his private judgment to determine that Peter de Luna (Benedict XIII) had lost his office, ipso facto, and then declared, on his own authority, that the Papal See was vacant.   There was no need for official warnings or a declaration from the Church, they assure us, for him to reach his verdict.  He simply applied the proper theological principles and arrived at the obvious conclusion that any Catholic who knew his faith would have reached.  Furthermore, as the story goes, St. Vincent had the “courage” to take matters into his own hands to make the fact known.  Therefore, on the Feast of the Epiphany, in the year of our Lord, 1416, in the presence of nobleman, prelates, and even Benedict XIII himself, the great St. Vincent Ferrer heroically declared to a crowd of 10,000 that the Chair of Peter was vacant – all based on nothing but his own “private judgment”.

Before seeing what really happened on January 6, 1416 (and the months leading up that day), let’s read Steve Speray’s account of the story.  The following is taken from his article, “The Sedevacantist Saint Vincent Ferrer,” which, needless to say, did not include a single footnote:

“After years of defending the Avignon papacy, St. Vincent Ferrer became a sedevacantist officially on the Feast of the Epiphany, 1416 A.D. [January 6, 1416], at the Castle of Majorca.

“Using private judgment, St. Vincent Ferrer denounced his friend Pope Benedict XIII for going into schism because he wouldn’t step down with the other papal claimants in order that the Church could be unified under one pope. The great miracle worker had many followers and when St. Vincent Ferrer declared the Chair of Peter empty, nearly the whole Catholic world pulled away their allegiance to all papal claimants making way for Pope Martin V. (…)

“St. Vincent Ferrer’s example destroys all arguments against the principles of sedevacantism that no warnings, no declarations, etc. are necessary to know that a pope has lost his office due to heresy or schism. (…) St. Vincent believed Benedict XIII was the true pope who lost his office automatically without any declaration from the Church. … St. Vincent Ferrer, a Dominican highly educated in the Faith, became a sedevacantist by his own judgment against his friend, Pope Benedict XIII. He knew his Faith, and he put it into practice. St. Vincent Ferrer, pray for us!”[1]

That’s the fable Sedevacantist apologists have been spreading for years to support their position.  The alleged facts are rarely if ever questioned and the story is almost always received with great enthusiasm.

In this article, we will see what really happened in the case of St. Vincent and Benedict XIII, which is far different than what the Sedevacantists storytellers would have their audience believe.  Then, in a follow up article, we will consider a real historical example of Sedevacantism – one that serves as a true precedent for their position - and see what was revealed to a great saint and mystic who lived at the time, about these Sedevacantists of her day.

The Council of Constance

The events concerning St. Vincent and Benedict XIII took place during the Council of Constance, which had been convened to bring an end to The Great Western Schism. At the time there were three papal claimants, John XXIII, Gregory XII and Benedict XIII.  All three had been elected to the papacy by a conclave, and each one publicly professed to be the true Pope.  For decades, the membership of the Church had been divided by multiple papal claimants, and a real danger existed that the tripartite split would become permanent, resulting in three separate Churches, each believing their line of Popes were the true successors of St. Peter. And the difficulty was so great in determine which claimants was the legitimate Pontiff, that there were there were saints on opposite sides.

In December of 1413, the Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund, convoked the Council of Constance in an attempt to resolve the matter and restore the unity of the Church. It was announced that the council would open on November 1st the following year, and all three claimants were summoned to attend.  John XXIII accepted the invitation, but Gregory and Benedict refused.  On November 5, 1414, the Council was convened by John XXIII (the only pope to show).  The bishops proceeded to depose John XXIII and demand that the other two claimants abdicate, so a single, non-disputed pope could be elected.  Fr. Hogan relates these events in his book, St. Vincent Ferrer, O.P. (1911):

“The confusion at the time was extreme. The “Council” of Pisa in 1409 had intensified it by electing Alexander V as Pope, and so the Christian world was scandalized by the spectacle of three claimants to the Papacy. Alexander died ten months later, and Balthazzar Cossa was chosen in his place, taking the name of John XXIII. Gregory XII, the legitimate Pontiff, was in exile. John XXIII reigned at Rome. Benedict XIII, as obstinate as ever, asserted his claims and would not hear of any compromise. In November, 1414, John XXIII, compelled by the Emperor Sigismund, had opened the Council of Constance, which solemnly deposed him and demanded the abdication of Gregory XII and Benedict XIII.” [2]

Gregory XII (the true Pope) submitted and agreed to abdicate, provided Benedict XIII would do the same. If the latter would agree to renounce his claims to the papacy, it would clear the way for the ɛƖɛctıon of a single, non-disputed pope, and the crisis that had divided the Church for nearly four decades could be brought to an end.  Benedict, obstinate as ever, refused to abdicate.

King Ferdinand of Aragon, who along with St. Vincent recognized Benedict as the true Pope, sent a letter to St. Vincent requesting that he meet with himself and Benedict to discuss the matter.  St. Vincent had always been Benedict’s most loyal defender, so if anyone could convince him to renounce his claims to the Papacy, it would be him.  The Saint arrived at Perpignan several months later, where he and the King did all in their might to persuade Benedict to obey the Council and abdicate for the good of the Church, but to no avail.  Fr. Hogan explains:

Ferdinand wrote to St. Vincent to meet him at (…) Perpignan, where they would discuss the steps to be taken to ensure the union of the Church with Benedict XIII. St. Vincent arrived at Perpignan towards the end of August and began to use all his tact and powers of persuasion to make Benedict yield. Gregory XII had already signified his intention of resigning, and Benedict therefore was the sole obstacle in the way. But all the efforts of St. Vincent proved useless; Peter de Luna [Benedict XIII] would not give in…”[3]

Congress of Perpignan

The Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund, traveled from Constance to Perpignan along with representatives of the Council, and embassies from the Kings of France, England, Hungary, Castile, and Navarre, in the hope of obtaining Benedict’s renunciation.  They arrived in mid-September and spent the next six weeks exhausting all efforts to secure his abdication, only to be met with deception and trickery from Benedict, who refused to cast aside personal ambition for the good of the Church.   All manner of concessions were granted to him and his cardinals, but nothing could bend the obstinate will of the ill tempered old man.  The verbal trickery of the stubborn Antipope eventually gave way to physical threats, and by the end of October the Emperor had seen enough.  Having abandoned all hope of securing Benedict’s abdication, Sigismund’s entourage departed north for Narbonne, on their way back to the Council.

Benedict’s behavior had scandalized even his most loyal his followers, and proved to be the beginning of the end for his supposed Pontificate.  As Pradel would later write, “The Congress of Perpignan was fatal to Peter de Luna [Benedict XIII].”[4]  St Vincent “was so deeply afflicted” by what he had witnessed, “that he fell grievously ill,” [5] and King Ferdinand, along with the Kings of Castille and Navarre, were so infuriated that they immediately dispatched an embassy to Narbonne, to inform Sigismund that if Benedict persisted in his refusal to abdicate, they would withdraw their obedience from him and submit to the authority of Constance.  Delighted with the news from the three Kings, the Emperor returned at once to Perpignan along with representatives of the Council, in the hope of securing their obedience. Benedict, seeing the handwriting on the wall, fled south with his Cardinals to Pensicola, to a rock fortress belonging to his family.

In early November, the bishops and theologians representing the obedience of Avignon began formal discussions with the representatives of the Council about withdrawing their obedience from Benedict and transferring it to the Council.  Before making the decision, one final embassy was dispatched to Benedict an attempt to obtain his abdication.  He responded by issuing a bull against the Council and threatening to deprive the Kings of their crowns if they submitted to it.

Due to St. Vincent’s popularity with the faithful, and because he was known as Benedict’s most loyal defender, he was asked by the Council to give his opinion on whether the kingdoms should withdraw their obedience from Benedict. About this, Fr. Hogan writes:

“Stubborn to the last, Benedict XIII fled to Peniscola, whither an embassy was sent by Ferdinand to try and obtain his consent to the proposed abdication. Again he refused; he would not abdicate. We must not forget that in the eyes of St. Vincent and Ferdinand, Benedict XIII was the true Pope, hence their difficulties and embarrassing position. But at last, when all efforts had proved unavailing, Ferdinand asked St. Vincent to decide the question finally. St. Vincent replied that since Benedict XIII had resisted all attempts to procure the union that was so necessary, and since his conduct gave scandal to all the faithful, they were justified in withdrawing their obedience to Benedict. This decision was confirmed by the assembly of Bishops convened by Ferdinand and representing the obedience of Avignon.”[6]

The decision was made, then and there, that if Benedict refused to abdicate, the kingdoms would withdraw their obedience from him.

Papa Dubius est Papa Nullus

Here it should be noted that because Benedict was a doubtful Pope (in the true sense of the word), according to the principle, ‘a doubtful pope is no pope at all’ (papa dubius est papa nullus), withdrawing obedience from him was permitted.

Now, for reasons that will become clear below, it is important to note that the axiom ‘a doubtful pope is not the pope’, does not mean a pope whose legitimacy is doubtful cannot be the true Pope objectively – or cannot be the pope quoad se (‘of himself’).  This is evident from the fact that during the Great Western Schism there was always a legitimate pope (quoad se), even though all the legitimate popes during the years of the schism, as well as the Antipopes, were all “doubtful popes” (quoad nos).  What the axiom means is that a pope who is ‘doubtful’ according to human judgment (quoad nos) is considered to not be the Pope, and can licitly be treated as such. For this reason, St. Bellarmine more accurately phrases the axiom as “a doubtful pope is considered no pope at all.” [7]

The famous Jesuit canonist, Fr. Wernz, discusses the axiom at length in Ius Decretalium (1898). He not only explains a) how a pope would be considered positively doubtful, but also b) why the faithful would not be obliged to obey him.  Concerning the first part, he writes:

The ancient authors everywhere admitted the axiom, ‘A doubtful pope is no pope’ and applied it to solve the difficulties which arose from the Great Western Schism.  Now this axiom could be understood in several ways. For instance, a ‘doubtful pope’ can be understood not negatively, but positively - i.e., when, after a diligent examination of the facts, competent men in the Catholic Church would pronounce: 'The validity of the canonical ɛƖɛctıon of this Roman pontiff is uncertain’.  Moreover, the words 'No pope' are not necessarily understood of a pope who has previously been received as certain and undoubted by the whole Church [since the previous universal acceptance already proved that he is a legitimate Pope], but concerning whose ɛƖɛctıon so many difficulties are subsequently brought to light that he becomes 'a doubtful pope' so that he would thereby forfeit the pontifical power already obtained.  This understanding of the axiom concerning 'a doubtful pope' should be reproved…”[8]

He then goes on to explain why obedience to a truly doubtful pope does not bind:

“[T]his is what is deduced in the first place from the very nature of jurisdiction; for jurisdiction is essentially a relation between a superior who has the right (ius) to obedience and a subject who has the duty (officium) of obeying. Now when one half of this relationship is lacking, the other necessarily ceases as well (cessante igitur uno termino alter necessario cessat), as is plain from the nature of the relationship.  So if a pope is truly and permanently doubtful, the duty of obedience cannot exist towards him on the part of any subject. (…) For a doubtful pope has no right of commanding and therefore there is no obligation of obedience on the part of the faithful.”[9]

Now, without question Benedict XIII was permanently a doubtful Pope – in the true sense of the word.  Even those who believed him to be legitimate pope quoad se (of himself), could not deny that he was a doubtful pope quoad nos. Therefore, one can easily understand why the bishops and theologians who recognized Benedict as the legitimate Pope (quoad se) could have concluded that it was licit to withdraw obedience from him.

Treaty of Narbonne

Following the judgment of the bishops and theologians at the Congress of Perpignan, an agreement was quickly reached between the subjects of Benedict and the representatives of the Council.  The kingdoms of Aragon, Castile, and Navarre would withdraw their obedience from Benedict XIII and would transfer it to the Council of Constance.  The Council would then depose Benedict XIII and a new pope would be elected. This was agreed to in the famous Treaty of Narbonne, which was signed by both parties on December 13, 1415.  As the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) explains, this is when Benedict “was abandoned by the Kings of Aragon, Castile, and Navarre, hitherto his chief supporters.” [10]  

“By the Treaty of Narbonne (13 Dec., 1415), they [the Kings of Aragon, Castile, and Navarre], bound themselves to co-operate with the Council of Constance for the deposition of Benedict and the ɛƖɛctıon of a new pope.” [11]

The Treaty was subsequently confirm by the Council of Constance during the XXII Session.

January 6, 1416, the Feast of the Epiphany

We now arrive at Feast of Epiphany, 1416. This is the day Sedevacantists claim St. Vincent “declared the Chair of Peter vacant” based his own “private judgment”.

After signing of the Treaty of Narbonne, King Ferdinand, along with the Kings of Castile and Navarre, prepared an edict that would juridically withdraw their kingdoms from obedience to Benedict.  The edict was promulgated on January 6, 1416, the Feast of the Epiphany.[12]  Later that day, after saying Mass and preaching to a crowd of 10,000 faithful, prelates and noblemen, St. Vincent Ferrer read the edict to the throngs of faithful that had come to hear him preach.  You read that correctly.  All the saint did was read the edict of the King, which itself was based on the agreement that was reached between the secular and religious authorities who recognized Benedict as Pope, and by the representatives of the Council of Constance.  Contrary to what the Sedevacantist apologists claim, the saint took no actions based on his private judgment. Here is how Fr. Hogan relates the events of January 6, 1416:

“On 6 January, 1416, the Feast of the Epiphany, St. Vincent sang Mass, and preached to some 10,000 persons. After the sermon, he read in the presence of the King, Ambassadors, and people, the act by which all those who had been of the Avignon obedience withdrew their allegiance to Benedict. The Emperor was notified of this; and the Fathers of the Council of Constance sang a Te Deum in thanksgiving.”[13]

That’s what happened on the Feast of the Epiphany, 1416.  St. Vincent did not “become a Sedevacantist” and “declare the Chair Vacant” based on his own “private judgment”.  All he did was read the edict that had been promulgated by the three Kings, announcing to those present that they were no longer obliged to obey Benedict as Pope.  That’s it!  

Yet the Sedevacantists entirely twist the story in an attempt to support their illicit acts by omitting everything that transpired prior the date, and then pretending that the Saint took matters into his own hands by 1) judging that Benedict has lost his office and then 2) publicly declaring that the Papal See was vacant.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

St. Vincent Never Declared the Chair Vacant

In fact, St. Vincent never judged (or declared) that Benedict XIII had lost his office at all; only that it was licit to withdraw obedience from him. As the Original Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) relates, on the very day the Saint read the King’s edict, he “declared anew” to the crowd that Benedict was the true Pope:

“Vincent was one of the most resolute and faithful adherents of Benedict XIII, and by his word, sanctity, and miracles he did much to strengthen Benedict's position. It was not until 1416, when pressed by Ferdinand, King of Aragon, that he abandoned him. On 6 January, preaching at Perpignan, he declared anew to the vast throng gathered around his pulpit that Benedict XIII was the legitimate pope, but that, since he would not resign to bring peace to the Church, Ferdinand had withdrawn his states from the obedience of Avignon.”[14]

So, St. Vincent did not believe Benedict lost his office, ipso facto, and neither did any of the others who withdrew their obedience from him on that day. This is confirmed by the third article from the Treaty of Narbonne, which explains why it was necessary for Benedict to be legally deposed (or legally declared deposed) before another pope could be elected by the Council.  Read carefully what this Article says:

“Article III “But as Benedict's said Obedience cannot legally recognize any Pope, unless the See becomes vacant, either by the Death, or by the voluntary Abdication, or by the deposing of Benedict; the Council, before they elect another Pope, shall proceed to such Deposition in due course of law…”[15]

According to this Article, which was agreed to by both sides and confirmed by the Council itself, the only way those who believed Benedict was the legitimate Pope consider the Papal See vacant,  is if he died, abdicated, or was legally deposed by the Church (or legally declared not to be Pope, if you prefer).

This again entirely refutes the claim that those at the time, such as St. Vincent, who believed obedience could be withdrawn from Benedict, did so because they thought he had already lost his office, and that the See had fallen vacant.

The Source of the Fable

The exact source of this Sedevacantist fable of St. Vincent is difficult to pinpoint, but it is certain that one of the earliest accounts of the myth was written by a Sedevacantist apologist, John Lane, who has been using the false story to promote Sedevacantism for years.  The following is taken from an article he wrote many years ago (and which is likely where Mr. Speray got his information).

“When the great day arrived, St. Vincent was seated with an audience of churchmen, nobles, and Benedict himself, and he delivered the most astonishing address that one could imagine; he declared that whilst Benedict was the rightfully elected Roman Pontiff, his ill-will in refusing to sacrifice his rights for the good of the Church had made it clear that he was, in fact, a schismatic. And as a schismatic, he had forfeited his membership in Holy Church and with it his papal office. He was no longer pope. This epiphany was delivered on January 6, 1416, at Perpignan. St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him. He had never expressed any doubts about the legitimacy of Benedict's ɛƖɛctıon. Nor had he considered his claim doubtful in any way. His case was quite clearly that Benedict lost his membership in Holy Church by schism, and thus forfeited his office. In other words, St. Vincent applied the principles of St. Thomas and of the Fathers; the same principles later presented by Bellarmine, with perfect, and perfectly clear, consistency. The effect was stupendous. All but a couple of cardinals abandoned Benedict, and the schism was effectively ended.”[16]

Notice how Mr. Lane cleverly refers to the act of St. Vincent, which took place on Epiphany, as itself an epiphany – “this epiphany” – thereby making it seem as if the Saint received an extraordinary light from the Holy Ghost while he was delivering the speech, which instantly enabled him to apply the theological principles necessary to know Benedict had lost his office, while at the same time moving his will to courageously and heroically declare it to all!   And what was the result of this divine inspiration and heroic act of St. Vincent?  Why it brought an end to The Great Western Schism.  And what does Mr. Lane want his readers to conclude from this fable? He wants them to conclude that if Catholics today only had the knowledge and courage to become public Sedevacantists like himself and the great St. Vincent Ferrer, the current crisis in the Church would likewise be brought to a speedy end.

The truth, however, is quite difference.  The great St. Vincent did nothing based on his own authority or private judgment.  Everything he did was an act of obedience to the judgment of both the spiritual and temporal authorities.  Yet the Sedevacantists apologists shamelessly distort the history and end by making the obedient St. Vincent Ferrer appear as the rebellious heretic, William of Ockham, and his rebellious and heretical friends, the Spiritual Franciscans – who are the real precedents for today's Sedevacantist, as we shall see in a follow up article.






[1] Steve Speray, “The Sedevacantist Saint Vincent Ferrer,” November 27, 2014

[2] Fr. Stanislaus M. Hogan, O.P., St. Vincent Ferrer, (London, Longmans Green and Co. 1911), p. 73.

[3] Op. cit. p. 73-4.

[4] Ibid.

[5] Fr. Andrew Pradel, St. Vincent Ferrer: His Life Spiritual Teaching and Practical Devotion (London: R. Washbourne, 1875), p. 73

[6] Fr. Stanislaus M. Hogan, O.P., St. Vincent Ferrer, (London, Longmans Green and Co. 1911), p. 73.

[7] De Concilii, bk. ch.

[8] Fr. Franz Xaver Wernz, Ius Decretalium ad Usum PraɛƖɛctıonum In Scholis Textus Canonicisive Juris Decretalium, , Tomus II, (Romae: De Propoganda Fide, 1898) Scholion 618.

[9] Ibid.

[10] Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) Vol. IV, p. 289.

[11] Ibid.

[12] Teoli, lib. i Trait, iii. per totum.  See Pradel, Op cit. p. 73, footnote 1

[13] Fr. Stanislaus M. Hogan, O.P., St. Vincent Ferrer, (London, Longmans Green and Co. 1911), p. 73.

[14] Catholic Encycopedia (1913), article on St. Vincent Ferrer

[15] Treaty of Narbonne, Article III

Never trust; always verify.


Offline 2Vermont

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No kidding.  No sedevacantist ever said he was.  🙄 My understanding has always been that he just adhered to an anti-pope, and that he was still considered a saint means that good Catholics can be wrong about who is pope. 
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


Offline RomanTheo

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No kidding.  No sedevacantist ever said he was.  🙄

From the article:

Steven Speray: "St. Vincent Ferrer, a Dominican highly educated in the Faith, became a sedevacantist by his own judgment against his friend, Pope Benedict XIII. He knew his Faith, and he put it into practice. St. Vincent Ferrer, pray for us!”

John Lane: "St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him."
Never trust; always verify.

Offline 2Vermont

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From the article:

Steven Speray: "St. Vincent Ferrer, a Dominican highly educated in the Faith, became a sedevacantist by his own judgment against his friend, Pope Benedict XIII. He knew his Faith, and he put it into practice. St. Vincent Ferrer, pray for us!”

John Lane: "St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him."
What Speray says, I have never heard before.  As for John Lane, he is stating that he was a "practical" sedevacantist....which is what many non-sedes are too.  I would have to see his actual article to see that he is clearly calling him a sedevacantist.
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline RomanTheo

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What Speray says, I have never heard before.  As for John Lane, he is stating that he was a "practical" sedevacantist....which is what many non-sedes are too.  I would have to see his actual quote to see that he is clearly calling him a sedevacantist.

I have heard sedevacantists call St. Vincent a sedevacantist for years.  That is why I found this article so interesting.  As for the full quote from John Lane, here is what is included in the article:

“When the great day arrived, St. Vincent was seated with an audience of churchmen, nobles, and Benedict himself, and he delivered the most astonishing address that one could imagine; he declared that whilst Benedict was the rightfully elected Roman Pontiff, his ill-will in refusing to sacrifice his rights for the good of the Church had made it clear that he was, in fact, a schismatic. And as a schismatic, he had forfeited his membership in Holy Church and with it his papal office. He was no longer pope. This epiphany was delivered on January 6, 1416, at Perpignan. St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him. He had never expressed any doubts about the legitimacy of Benedict's ɛƖɛctıon. Nor had he considered his claim doubtful in any way. His case was quite clearly that Benedict lost his membership in Holy Church by schism, and thus forfeited his office. In other words, St. Vincent applied the principles of St. Thomas and of the Fathers; the same principles later presented by Bellarmine, with perfect, and perfectly clear, consistency. The effect was stupendous. All but a couple of cardinals abandoned Benedict, and the schism was effectively ended.”[16]
Never trust; always verify.


Offline 2Vermont

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I know what the Siscoe and Salza article states/quotes.  I would like to see John Lane's article. Saying he is a "practical sede" is not the same as saying one is a "sede".  Like I said above, many non-sedes are "practical" sedes.  In all my years on trad Catholic forums, I have never seen a sede call St Vincent Ferrer a "sedevacantist".  Is it possible I completely missed this?  Sure. But I think it's much more likely that context is/was critical when trads discussed him.
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline 2Vermont

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For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline RomanTheo

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I know what the Siscoe and Salza article states/quotes.  I would like to see John Lane's article. Saying he is a "practical sede" is not the same as saying one is a "sede".  Like I said above, many non-sedes are "practical" sedes.  In all my years on trad Catholic forums, I have never seen a sede call St Vincent Ferrer a "sedevacantist".  Is it possible I completely missed this?  Sure. But I think it's much more likely that context is/was critical when trads discussed him.

I found the thread on John Lane's website.  


Quote
http://strobertbellarmine.net/viewtopic.php?p=5514#p5514

And this from an old article of mine. Not sure which one now, but it summarises the above in relation to the sedevacantist thesis.

__________________________________________________________________________

"We should not decide the legitimacy of the popes by means of prophecies or miracles or visions. The Christian people are governed by laws against which extraordinary events count nothing." (St. Vincent Ferrer, De moderno ecclesiae schismate, Bibl. Nat., no. 1470; quoted by Mourret, History of the Catholic Church, B. Herder, Vol. V, p. 133.)

The law of the Church, reflecting the divine law explained and proved by Bellarmine, was codified in the Decretals as the canon, Si papa. It reads:

"Let no mortal have the presumption to accuse the Pope of fault, for, it being incuмbent upon him to judge all, he should be judged by no one, unless he departs from the faith."

Which, of course, is the identical doctrine as was taught by Pope Urban VIII, in Unam Sanctam. We see in the quote from the sainted Thomist, Br. Vincent, two clear points relevant to present controversies:

1. Christians may and ought to "decide the legitimacy of popes" as circuмstances demand, and
2. These determinations are to be made according to known laws.

Now let's see how he applied them in practice.

St. Vincent had often urged Benedict XIII to arrange a double resignation of himself and the Roman claimant, for the good of Holy Church, so that a single pope could be elected who would be accepted by all of Christendom. He presented this to Benedict as a sacrifice - the sacrifice of his true authority, his true office, for the greater good. However Peter de Luna, Benedict XIII, continued to frustrate all efforts at bringing this great event about.

In the mean time men had growth thoroughly disgusted with the Schism. It had lasted almost forty years, and circuмstances were ripe for a solution to be found. The solution agreed upon was a council, to be held at Constance, which would receive the resignations of the (at that time) three papal claimants, or if necessary depose them, and select a new, universally acceptable pope.

In the lead up to the Council St. Vincent redoubled his efforts to convince Benedict to resign, but to no avail. Such was his fame, and his unequalled moral authority, that the entire world was expecting St. Vincent to bring about an end to the great Schism, and after weeks of penance, unceasing prayer, negotiations, threats, exhortations, more penance, more prayer, even more exhortation, threatening, and negotiation, the thaumaturg was at the end of his resources, with no sign of peace or unity. He declared that he would retire for a few days, and then he would give the solution to the crisis. The world held its breath.

When the great day arrived, St. Vincent was seated with an audience of churchmen, nobles, and Benedict himself, and he delivered the most astonishing address that one could imagine; he declared that whilst Benedict was the rightfully elected Roman Pontiff, his ill-will in refusing to sacrifice his rights for the good of the Church had made it clear that he was, in fact, a schismatic. And as a schismatic, he had forfeited his membership in Holy Church and with it his papal office. He was no longer pope. This epiphany was delivered on January 6, 1416, at Perpignan.

St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him. He had never expressed any doubts about the legitimacy of Benedict's ɛƖɛctıon. Nor had he considered his claim doubtful in any way. His case was quite clearly that Benedict lost his membership in Holy Church by schism, and thus forfeited his office. In other words, St. Vincent applied the principles of St. Thomas and of the Fathers; the same principles later presented by Bellarmine, with perfect, and perfectly clear, consistency.

The effect was stupendous. All but a couple of cardinals abandoned Benedict, and the schism was effectively ended. As Henri Ghéon put it, Martin V, elected subsequently by the Council of Constance, was "Br. Vincent's Pope." Martin V, in turn, recognising the divinely ordained means by which his office had been secured and the unity of Holy Church defended, wrote to the saint and offered him "anything he wanted." St. Vincent wanted, of course, nothing but Jesus Christ. Shortly afterwards he was perfectly united to Him in heaven.

I would also note that Mr. Lane doesn't simply says St. Vincent was a practical sedevacantist.  He says he was a practical and theoretical sedevacantist.  
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Offline Last Tradhican

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I think that Roman Theo, Siscoe, Salza, John Lane and Steven Speray (who I never heard of till now) are all just laymen hobbyists with too much time of their hands, who think they "cracked the code". 
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Offline 2Vermont

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I think that Roman Theo, Siscoe, Salza, John Lane and Steven Speray (who I never heard of till now) are all just laymen hobbyists with too much time of their hands, who think they "cracked the code".
Point taken.  I don't think any of the well-known sede clergy have ever claimed St Vincent Ferrer was a "sede".
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Offline Ladislaus

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Now, for reasons that will become clear below, it is important to note that the axiom ‘a doubtful pope is not the pope’, does not mean a pope whose legitimacy is doubtful cannot be the true Pope objectively – or cannot be the pope quoad se (‘of himself’).  This is evident from the fact that during the Great Western Schism there was always a legitimate pope (quoad se), even though all the legitimate popes during the years of the schism, as well as the Antipopes, were all “doubtful popes” (quoad nos).  What the axiom means is that a pope who is ‘doubtful’ according to human judgment (quoad nos) is considered to not be the Pope, and can licitly be treated as such. For this reason, St. Bellarmine more accurately phrases the axiom as “a doubtful pope is considered no pope at all.” [7]

This is disputed.  Some theologians hold that the See was in fact vacant even quoad se.  Church has never officially ruled on the matter.  I forget where I saw the citation, but it was in the works of the same theologian who wrote that even in the case of a reigning Antipope or a vacancy, jurisdiction would continue to be transmitted through "color of title".

Now, I also hold that there was a Pope quoad se, but the Pope was more in an "impounded" state where he had no authority ... along the lines of Father Chazal's principles.  So that position would be somewhere in between these two.

Bottom line is that the principles involved are disputed among theologians.  At the end of the day, I don't care whether one follows Bellarmine or Cajetan or John of St. Thomas or anywhere in between.  I don't care if someone would believe that Paul VI was replaced by a double.  ALL THAT MATTERS to me is that it is totally contrary to ALL CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS to assert that the evils of Vatican II could have possibly emanated from legitimate papal authority, for that would be tantamount to declaring that the Church can defect.  THAT is the issue with many articulations of R&R, the corollary that legitimate papal authority can lead the entire Church into error, promulgate a Rite of Mass that's displeasing to God and harmful to faith and cannot in good conscience be attended by the faithful, that the faithful must sever communion with the Holy See in order to remain Catholic.  THAT opinion is anathema.  Too much ink has been spilled on the highly debated question of what happens to a heretic pope, since it's permissible to hold a wide array of opinions on the matter.


Offline Ladislaus

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From the article:

Steven Speray: "St. Vincent Ferrer, a Dominican highly educated in the Faith, became a sedevacantist by his own judgment against his friend, Pope Benedict XIII. He knew his Faith, and he put it into practice. St. Vincent Ferrer, pray for us!”

John Lane: "St. Vincent Ferrer was a practical and theoretical “sedevacantist,” who "judged" a pope (that is, judged the validity of the claim of a man to the papacy), and found him wanting, and then rejected him."

In a sense, during that time, everybody relied on "private" judgment to determine who was and was not a legitimate pope.  It's not unlike the situation today, where people have to decide whether to stick with the Conciliar Church, align with an FSSP, align with an SSPX, go with the Resistance, or go with the sedevacantists.  There are in fact many similarities here.

It's only during a time of Universal Peaceful Acceptance that the popes are accepted by more than private judgement, that there's a certainty of faith regarding who the legitimate Pope is.  But the Great Western schism is a perfect example of where this UPA was lacking, and it is my opinion that it is lacking today.  Absent UPA, the only alternative is private judgment.

So those who hold there's no UPA today can rightly make the assertion that St. Vincent judged the status of the papacy based on private judgment and that a similar situation applies today.  Given the confusion at the time, he could just as well have concluded that none of them were legit as having concluded that any one of them were legit ... and all of it would have been with private judgment.  Whether or not St Vincent concluded that the See was vacant is not actually all that relevant.  Even if he concluded that X, Y, or Z was the legitimate pope, that was on the basis of his private judgment.  So this is really the wrong argument to be having.  In other words, I don't really care about this debate.  Really the only argument is whether UPA applies today, and it is my opinion that it decidedly does not (for reasons I've articulated elsewhere).

Offline Ladislaus

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So in reading all the bluster in the OP, the only actual argument against Lane, which could be summed up in one sentence (the rest of the article being just chaff) is that in the episode cited by Lane, St. Vincent merely READ someone else's decree rather than express his own opinion.  Meh.  Presumably St. Vincent would not have read it if he felt that it would have been schismatic for them to make that declaration.  Six of one, half dozen of the other.  Too bad this guy wasted so much of his time writing this stupid article.

It's just like Salza and Siscoe having spent nearly a thousand pages to claim that in effect Bellarmine held the exact same position as Cajetan ... even though no other Catholic theologian has expressed that opinion, and Bellarmine HIMSELF explicitly rejected Cajetan's opinion, evidently unaware that he held the same position.

What a colossal waste of time.  This is a disputed matter and will not be resolved by any book.

What's at issue really is whether the Catholic Church can defect.

Offline Geremia

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Often we hear about St. Vincent et al. supporting one pope (Clement VII, Avignon pope) and St. Catherine of Siena et al. supporting another (Urban VI, Roman pope), both elected in 1378 (cf. this table). But St. Vincent's sedevacantist period began in 1416, when he disavowed himself of his friend Cdl. Pedro de Luna, elected Benedict XIII in 1394, of whom the saint was his confessor. St. Vincent died in 1419.

Some references:

St. Vincent wrote his Tractatus de moderno ecclesie scismate in 1380. The most recent biography of the saint, Daileader's Saint Vincent Ferrer, His World and Life: Religion and Society in Late Medieval Europe (2016), describes the Tractatus on p. 22:
Quote
Vincent asked first whether, in a time of schism, it was necessary to accept a single true pope or whether one could accept both or neither. Having established in his response to the first question that one must accept either Urban or Clement as pope, Vincent then posed the second question, namely, which of the two men elected by the College of Cardinals was the true pope. Having established that Clement’s election alone was valid, Vincent then asked whether this truth had to be preached and revealed to the Christian people. To each of these three major questions, the friar assigned five additional questions. Vincent answered all 15 questions within a scholastic framework: he posed his answer; cited his rational arguments (rationes) and his authorities (chiefly Aquinas, named on several occasions, and the Bible, with some references to Augustine and Aristotle); raised objections to his own arguments; and then rebutted the objections.

Ch. 9 ¶¶21-23 of Andrew Pradel, O.P.'s 1863 St. Vincent Ferrer: Angel of the Judgment explains why St. Vincent can be considered a sedevacantist:
Quote
…the King of Aragon detached himself from his obedience to Benedict XIII, and from that moment the cause of the union was accomplished.

The King’s edict was published on the 6th of January, 1416.

Our Saint spent the beginning of the year in traveling through many provinces of Aragon to withdraw the people from obedience to Benedict XIII, and to attach them to that of the Council of Constance, an undertaking by no means easy considering the long period in which those countries had lived under the spiritual dominion of Peter de Luna. But to all their prejudices the Saint opposed solid reasons, which carried conviction to every mind. In a short time, Spain, as well as Italy and the rest of Christendom, awaited with submission the choice of the Council of Constance, ready to acknowledge the elect of the Council as the veritable Vicar of Jesus Christ.
But St. Vincent refused to attend the Council of Constance and disagreed with its outcome, the election of Martin V! St. Vincent never publicly recognized Martin V or the Council of Constance (Daileader pp. 168-76). Thus, the great saintly logician just kept preaching repentance. This is certainly a great lesson for us today.

Daileader p. 172:
Quote
Then there are Vincent’s sermons, which similarly indicate that Vincent never accepted the Council of Constance’s legitimacy or authority. Extant sermons datable to the years 1415–1419 are fewer than sermons datable to the years 1411–1414. Nonetheless, they do exist. One searches them and Vincent’s undated sermons in vain for passages in which he advised his listeners to follow his example and submit themselves to the authority of the Council of Constance, as Gerson would have it, or urged his listeners to pray for Pope Martin V, the one and only true pope, as the canonization witness Bourdiec would have it. Instead, after January 6, 1416, Vincent said little about the schism, and what little he said indicates his continued rejection of the Council of Constance. On June 4, 1417—a date known through his reference to the age of Antichrist—and now in France, Vincent told his listeners that the schism had lasted nearly 40 years (ja ha prop de .XL. anys que dura lo cisma) and that presently there were three [anti]popes in the world: John, Gregory, and Benedict.42 [Sermons 1:208 (June 4, 1417).] For Vincent to assert on June 4, 1417, that there were three [anti]popes in the world was both stupefying and revealing. The Council of Constance had deposed John XXIII and Gregory XII fully two years earlier; Vincent had read aloud the Spanish subtraction 18 months earlier; the Council of Constance was still in session. Vincent mentioned none of these facts. The only concession that the friar made to changed circuмstances was this: unlike earlier in Spain, he did not follow up his observation that there were three [anti]popes in the world with the even more provocative proclamation that, of the three, Benedict was the legitimate one. But there were still three [anti]popes. For Vincent, preaching in France in June 1417, the Council of Constance had done nothing to change the status of these three. The deposing of even Benedict’s rivals was illegitimate.

Just as significantly, Vincent passed over obvious opportunities to proclaim his acceptance of the Council of Constance or Martin V. …

(original source)
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Offline Matthew

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Wow.

Once again, the truth is rarely "simple".

Especially impressive was this part:


Quote
Vincent then asked whether this truth had to be preached and revealed to the Christian people. To each of these three major questions, the friar assigned five additional questions. Vincent answered all 15 questions within a scholastic framework: he posed his answer; cited his rational arguments (rationes) and his authorities (chiefly Aquinas, named on several occasions, and the Bible, with some references to Augustine and Aristotle); raised objections to his own arguments; and then rebutted the objections.

If only more Trads -- whatever their position -- were this rational.

So even if he were wrong, he wouldn't be culpable of anything.

Modern-day Trads, however, anathematize each other in pure fits of emotion, fancying themselves a modern-day St. Vincent at worst ("He was a saint and he backed the wrong pope.")

So what if lack of charity, giving in to emotions (especially anger) in matters of Catholic theology polemics is NOT blameless. St. Vincent Ferrer was canonized, yes, but he didn't do that.

Interesting.
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