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Author Topic: St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 3286 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
« on: August 18, 2014, 04:57:28 PM »
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  • St Thomas Aquinas's position on the Immaculate Conception

    SOURCE

    Contrary to the claims of the Modernists, St Thomas is not held universally to have rejected the Immaculate Conception. In fact, the principles of St Thomas provided the basis for the definition of the dogma, when it finally came. It is indescribably frustrating when otherwise-pious Catholics point to St Thomas's supposed error on this point as a way of reducing his credibility. No doubt they are unaware of his absolutely unique position as a theologian and Doctor of the Universal Church. No doubt they are unaware that Canon Law prescribes that all professors of theology are to hold and teach the "arguments, doctrine, and principles" of St. Thomas. Canon 1366, Section 2 : "The study of philosophy and theology and the teaching of these sciences to their students must be accurately carried out by Professors (in seminaries etc.) according to the arguments, doctrine, and principles of St. Thomas which they are inviolately to hold." Canon 589 prescribes that religious are to do likewise. No other doctor holds this place in Catholic theology.

    But ignorance of these facts does not explain the astonishing ease with which many today will throw out the one-liner; "Oh, St Thomas was wrong on the Immaculate Conception." Really? And I suppose they've studied the question well enough to have an opinion? Possibly the briefest way to deal with such nonsense is to ask the armchair expert if they could kindly explain what St Thomas DID teach on this doctrine. Embarrassing silence is the usual response. This short note is intended to answer that question, albeit not in great detail, but at least by presenting the scholarly views of those learned enough to hold an opinion on the matter.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Thomas at first pronounced in favour of the doctrine in his treatise on the "Sentences" (inI. Sent. c. 44, q. I ad 3), yet in his "Summa Theologica" he concluded against it. Much discussion has arisen as to whether St. Thomas did or did not deny that the Blessed Virgin was immaculate at the instant of her animation, and learned books have been written to vindicate him from having actually drawn the negative conclusion. For this controversy see: Cornoldi, "Sententia S. Thomae etc.", (2nd ed., Naples, 1870); Ronard de Card, "L'ordre des Freres-precheurs et l'immaculee Conception" (Brussels, 1864), Pesch, "Prael. dogm." III (Freiburg, 1895), 170; Heinrich-Gutberlet, "Dogmat. Theol.", VII (Mainz, 1896), 436; Tobbe, "Die Stellung des hl. Thomas zu der unbefl. Empfangnis" (Munster, 1892); C. M. Schneider, "Die unbefl. Empfangnis und die Erbsunde" (Ratisbon, 1892); Pohle, "Lehrbuch d. Dogmatik", II (Paderborn, 1903), 254. Yet it is hard to say that St. Thomas did not require an instant at least, after the animation of Mary, before her sanctification. His great difficulty appears to have arisen from the doubt as to how she could have been redeemed if she had not sinned. This difficulty he raised in no fewer than ten passages in his writings (see, e.g., "Summa Theol.", III, Q. xxvii, a. 2, ad Sum). But while St. Thomas thus held back from the essential point of the doctrine, he himself laid down the principles which, after they had been drawn together and worked out, enabled other minds to furnish the true solution of this difficulty from his own premises."

    In other words, the author of this article thinks that St. Thomas decided against the Immaculate Conception, at least early in his career, but admits that many others have held that St. Thomas did no such thing. The key isue to grasp is that St. Thomas was very concerned to ensure that a dogma was not denied by those seeking to emphasise Mary's sinlessness - and that dogma was the Redemption. Our Lord redeemed all men, without exception. St. Thomas's emphasis that Mary too was redeemed is what has led to the controversy.


    Further proof that it is not a "given" that St Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception, is found in the following survey of the opinions of theologians on this question, from Volume VI, "Mariology", of Pohle-Preuss, Dogmatic Theology (12 volumes) Herder 1953, page 67:

    "5. The Teaching of St Thomas --- Theologians are divided in their opinion as to what was the mind of St Thomas in regard to the Immaculate Conception. Some frankly admit that he opposed what in his day was not yet a defined dogma, but insist that he virtually admitted what he formally denied. Others claim that the Angelic Doctor expressly defended the Immaculate Conception and that the (about fifteen) adverse passages quoted from his writings must be regarded as later interpolations. Between these two extremes stand two other groups of theologians, one of which holds that St Thomas was undecided in his attitude towards the Immaculate Conception, while the other merely maintains the impossibility of proving that he opposed it."

    Pohle gives examples of each type of theologian - about four or five names for each group. So, we see from this that the 'worst case' we can assert is that St Thomas proved the Immaculate Conception with his principles, and yet failed to clearly formulate the conclusion, which of course later theologians did. Indeed the definition of 1854 was based entirely on his principles.

    Any layman then, who says blankly that "St Thomas denied the Immaculate Conception," is not only rash, but demonstrates his ignorance of the opinions of theologians, the majority of whom cannot assert this but indeed at a minimum say that he was uncommitted.

    Personally I'd like to see all of the arguments of those who insist that he defended it, for my love of St Thomas is such that I would easily fall in with these "extremists" and look forward in the hope of his gratitude in Heaven! One such argument is this : St Thomas cannot have denied that which was not yet formulated. What he denied was that the Blessed Virgin was not redeemed, which assertion is indeed a heresy which he was right to oppose.

    An example of his teaching is the following : "Purity is constituted by a recession from impurity, and therefore it is possible to find some creature purer than all the rest, namely one not contaminated by any taint of sin; such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin, who was immune from original and actual sin, yet under God, inasmuch as there was in her the potentiality of sin." From the Commentary on the Book of Sentences.

    I submit that the average layman, if presented with this, would assert that it was a perfect summation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If nothing else it proves that we should hold our unfounded opinions in check, knowing that far greater men have puzzled over this question and not succeeded it solving it. The very fact that theologians debate what the mind of St Thomas was on this question shows as well as anything his unique position in theology.

    John Lane

    August 2nd, 1998

    Feast of St. Alphonsus Liguori

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    Offline Cantarella

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 05:08:44 PM »
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  • If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 05:13:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Summa Theologia, III, Q.27, Art .2, ad.4

    It would be profitable for sedevacantist John Lane to actually read the Summa:  

    http://www.egs.edu/library/thomas-aquinas/articles/summa-theologica-part-iii-tertia-pars-from-the-complete-american-edition/treatise-on-the-incarnation-qq-1-59/question-27of-the-sanctification-of-the-blessed-virgin/


    Do you really think JL and all of the theologians he cites were not aware of that quote?

    You haven't discovered anything new, but as with your reading on other areas of theology, you are very quick to assume things.  
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    Offline Cantarella

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 05:31:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Summa

    Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman
    : for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."


    There is no doubt that St Thomas, as a fallible saint, held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception while he lived. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 05:47:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Summa

    Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman
    : for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."


    There is no doubt that St Thomas, as a fallible saint, held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception while he lived. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  


    Cantarella,

    Do you think your opinion on these matters is equal to to that of the Church's commissioned experts?

    Did you even bother to take a few minutes to read John Lane's article which cited numerous sources regarding this issue?
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Stubborn

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 09:27:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Summa

    Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman
    : for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."


    There is no doubt that St Thomas, as a fallible saint, held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception while he lived. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  


    Cantarella,

    Do you think your opinion on these matters is equal to to that of the Church's commissioned experts?

    Did you even bother to take a few minutes to read John Lane's article which cited numerous sources regarding this issue?




    You use St. Thomas to interpret defined dogma, then you use JL to interpret St. Thomas. Is your reading comprehension really that bad?

    If you accept that St. Thomas is not the Church, which presumably you accept, then why can you not accept that he erred?




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 11:18:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Summa

    Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman
    : for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."


    There is no doubt that St Thomas, as a fallible saint, held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception while he lived. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  


    Cantarella,

    Do you think your opinion on these matters is equal to to that of the Church's commissioned experts?

    Did you even bother to take a few minutes to read John Lane's article which cited numerous sources regarding this issue?




    You use St. Thomas to interpret defined dogma, then you use JL to interpret St. Thomas. Is your reading comprehension really that bad?

    If you accept that St. Thomas is not the Church, which presumably you accept, then why can you not accept that he erred?






    In my opinion Thomas is safer than Feeney.  I also believe that is a relatively safe opinion to hold.  To disagree with such an obvious truth betrays the ignorance and or stubbornness of the one who disagrees rather than undermines the fact that one is a safer guide, by far, than the other.  This should be obvious and is obvious to any rational creature of good will.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Summa

    Reply Obj. 4: Sanctification is twofold. One is that of the whole
     nature: inasmuch as the whole human nature is freed from all
     corruption of sin and punishment. This will take place at the
     resurrection. The other is personal sanctification. This is not
     transmitted to the children begotten of the flesh: because it does
     not regard the flesh but the mind. Consequently, though the parents
     of the Blessed Virgin were cleansed from original sin, nevertheless
     she contracted original sin, since she was conceived by way of
     fleshly concupiscence and the intercourse of man and woman
    : for
     Augustine says (De Nup. et Concup. i): "All flesh born of carnal
     intercourse is sinful."


    There is no doubt that St Thomas, as a fallible saint, held an erroneous opinion on the Immaculate Conception while he lived. However, keep in mind that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary was not defined until 1854.  


    Cantarella,

    Do you think your opinion on these matters is equal to to that of the Church's commissioned experts?

    Did you even bother to take a few minutes to read John Lane's article which cited numerous sources regarding this issue?




    You use St. Thomas to interpret defined dogma, then you use JL to interpret St. Thomas. Is your reading comprehension really that bad?

    If you accept that St. Thomas is not the Church, which presumably you accept, then why can you not accept that he erred?






    In my opinion Thomas is safer than Feeney.  I also believe that is a relatively safe opinion to hold.  To disagree with such an obvious truth betrays the ignorance and or stubbornness of the one who disagrees rather than undermines the fact that one is a safer guide, by far, than the other.  This should be obvious and is obvious to any rational creature of good will.  


    Do either one of you accept that St. Thomas even *can* err?

    Have you ever even read your own signature? - or do you need JL to interpret that for you as well?



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 12:11:21 PM »
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  • St. Thomas taught.:

    Quote
    Purity is constituted by a recession from impurity, and therefore it is possible to find some creature purer than all the rest, namely one not contaminated by any taint of sin; such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin, who was immune from original and actual sin, yet under God, inasmuch as there was in her the potentiality of sin." From the Commentary on the Book of Sentences.
    . (cited from the OP)

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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 12:17:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    St. Thomas taught.:

    Quote
    Purity is constituted by a recession from impurity, and therefore it is possible to find some creature purer than all the rest, namely one not contaminated by any taint of sin; such was the purity of the Blessed Virgin, who was immune from original and actual sin, yet under God, inasmuch as there was in her the potentiality of sin." From the Commentary on the Book of Sentences.
    . (cited from the OP)



    Bam!  Nice quote.   :applause:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Cantarella

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 12:28:17 PM »
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  • Here are the words of Thomas Aquinas himself:

    Quote from: St. Thomas
    "Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ." 


    From:
    Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia, Barcelona, 1985. 

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 12:41:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Here are the words of Thomas Aquinas himself:

    Quote from: St. Thomas
    "Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ." 


    From:
    Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia, Barcelona, 1985. 



    Did you read the article presented by Ambrose?  Do you believe all the Doctors, Fathers, and Popes taught on BOD, also erred with Thomas on the EENS issue?  Can you candidly admit that the only reason you like to insist that the greatest doctor of the Catholic Church erred is because you disagree with his clear teaching on BOD?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline JPaul

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 01:37:30 PM »
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  • LoT,
    Quote
    In my opinion Thomas is safer than Feeney.  I also believe that is a relatively safe opinion to hold.  To disagree with such an obvious truth betrays the ignorance and or stubbornness of the one who disagrees rather than undermines the fact that one is a safer guide, by far, than the other.  This should be obvious and is obvious to any rational creature of good will.  

    And what does Father Feeney have to do with the Immaculate Conception?
    Nothing! You are still using this crisis forum to continue your arguments about the other subject.
    Matthew has just provided a sub-forum where you can vent you venom about Father Feeney,and that subject. Please restrict your comments to that forum.

    Offline JPaul

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 01:41:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Here are the words of Thomas Aquinas himself:

    Quote from: St. Thomas
    "Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ." 


    From:
    Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia, Barcelona, 1985. 



    Did you read the article presented by Ambrose?  Do you believe all the Doctors, Fathers, and Popes taught on BOD, also erred with Thomas on the EENS issue?  Can you candidly admit that the only reason you like to insist that the greatest doctor of the Catholic Church erred is because you disagree with his clear teaching on BOD?


    Matthew, they are doing it again, directly after you provided them an area, so that this forum could be free of their incessant babbling about that subject.


    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Thomas Position on the Immaculate Conception
    « Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 02:01:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Here are the words of Thomas Aquinas himself:

    Quote from: St. Thomas
    "Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ." 


    From:
    Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia, Barcelona, 1985. 



    Did you read the article presented by Ambrose?  Do you believe all the Doctors, Fathers, and Popes taught on BOD, also erred with Thomas on the EENS issue?  Can you candidly admit that the only reason you like to insist that the greatest doctor of the Catholic Church erred is because you disagree with his clear teaching on BOD?


    Matthew, they are doing it again, directly after you provided them an area, so that this forum could be free of their incessant babbling about that subject.



    No, LoT was giving the reason why this issue is so important to all of you.  It's strange that you people care about a historical debate among theologians that goes back for centuries, which has been a moot point for over 150 years, as the Pope has defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

    I think it is a fair question to ask for the motivation of the person(s) who is attributing this to St. Thomas.  I also find it strange that it is only one group of people that find it necessary to regurgitate this issue over and over again, in what appears to be a concerted effort to try to discredit the authority St. Thomas.
     
    He was not discussing the subject that Matthew prohibited, only the motivations for dragging up this very old controversy.  

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