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Author Topic: St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.  (Read 4077 times)

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Offline Stephanos II

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St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
« on: October 09, 2013, 11:08:26 PM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Roman Pontiff, Book 2, Chapter 30.

    "This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    On the Roman Pontiff

    an extract from

    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

    "The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not "ipso facto" deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate - which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence. And this is what St. Jerome writes, adding that the other sinners are excluded from the Church by sentence of excommunication, but the heretics exile themselves and separate themselves by their own act from the body of Christ. Now, a Pope who remains Pope cannot be avoided, for how could we be required to avoid our own head? How can we separate ourselves from a member united to us?

    "This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    "To this Cajetan responds (in Apol. pro tract. praedicto cap. 25 et in ipso tract. cap. 22) that the heretic is not a Christian "simpliciter" [i.e. without qualification, or absolutely], but is one "secundum quid" [i.e. in a qualified or relative sense]. For, granted that two things constitute the Christian - the faith and the [baptismal] character - the heretic, having lost the faith, is still in some way united to the Church and is capable of jurisdiction; therefore, he is also Pope, but ought to be removed, since he is disposed, with ultimate disposition, to cease to be Pope: as the man who is still not dead but is "in extremis" [at the point of death].

    "Against this: in the first place, if the heretic remained, "in actu" [actually], united to the Church in virtue of the character, he would never be able to be cut or separated from her "in actu", for the character is indelible. But there is no one who denies that some people may be separated "in actu" from the Church. Therefore, the character does not make the heretic be "in actu" in the Church, but is only a sign that he was in the Church and that he must return to her. Analogously, when a sheep wanders lost in the mountains, the mark impressed on it does not make it be in the fold, but indicates from which fold it had fled and to which fold it ought to be brought back. This truth has a confirmation in St. Thomas who says (Summ. Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3) that those who do not have the faith are not united "in actu" to Christ, but only potentially - and St. Thomas here refers to the internal union, and not to the external which is produced by the confession of faith and visible signs. Therefore, as the character is something internal, and not external, according to St. Thomas the character alone does not unite a man, "in actu," to Christ.

    "Further against the argument of Cajetan: either faith is a disposition necessary "simpliciter" for someone to be Pope, or it is only necessary for someone to be a good Pope ["ad bene esse," to exist well, to be good, as opposed to simply existing]. In the first hypothesis, in case this disposition be eliminated by the contrary disposition, which is heresy, the Pope immediately ceases to be Pope: for the form cannot maintain itself without the necessary dispositions. In the second hypothesis, the Pope cannot be deposed by reason of heresy, for otherwise he would also have to be deposed for ignorance, immorality, and other similar causes, which impede the knowledge, the morality, and the other dispositions necessary for him to be a good Pope ("ad bene esse papae"). In addition to this, Cajetan recognises (tract. praed., ca. 26) that the Pope cannot be deposed for the lack of dispositions necessary, not "simpliciter", but only "ad bene esse."

    "To this, Cajetan responds that faith is a disposition necessary "simpliciter", but partial, and not total; and that, therefore, even if his faith disappears he can still continue being Pope, by reason of the other part of the disposition, the character, which still endures.

    "Against this argument: either the total disposition, constituted by the character and by faith, is necessary "simpliciter," or it is not, the partial disposition then being sufficient. In the first hypothesis, the faith disappearing there no longer remains the disposition "simpliciter" necessary, for the disposition "simpliciter" necessary was the total, and the total no longer exists. In the second hypothesis, the faith is only necessary "ad bene esse", and therefore its absence does not justify the deposition of the Pope. In addition to this, what finds itself in the ultimate disposition to death, immediately thereafter ceases to exist, without the intervention of any other external force, as is obvious; therefore, also the Pope heretic ceases to be Pope by himself, without any deposition.

    "Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are "ipso facto" deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: 'We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right'; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.

    "Pope St. Celestine I (epist. ad Jo. Antioch., which appears in Conc. Ephes., tom. I, cap. 19) wrote: 'It is evident that he [who has been excommunicated by Nestorius] has remained and remains in communion with us, and that we do not consider destituted [i.e. deprived of office, by judgment of Nestorius], anyone who has been excommunicated or deprived of his charge, either episcopal or clerical, by Bishop Nestorius or by the others who followed him, after they commenced preaching heresy. For he who had already shown himself as deserving to be excommunicated, could not excommunicate anyone by his sentence.'

    "And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: 'The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.'

    "St. Nicholas I (epist. ad Michael) repeats and confirms the same. Finally, St. Thomas also teaches (S. Theol., II-II, q. 39, a. 3) that schismatics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and that anything they try to do on the basis of any jurisdiction will be null.

    "There is no basis for that which some respond to this: that these Fathers based themselves on ancient law, while nowadays, by decree of the Council of Constance, they alone lose their jurisdiction who are excommunicated by name or who assault clerics. This argument, I say, has no value at all, for those Fathers, in affirming that heretics lose jurisdiction, did not cite any human law, which furthermore perhaps did not exist in relation to the matter, but argued on the basis of the very nature of heresy. The Council of Constance only deals with the excommunicated, that is, those who have lost jurisdiction by sentence of the Church, while heretics already before being excommunicated are outside the Church and deprived of all jurisdiction. For they have already been condemned by their own sentence, as the Apostle teaches (Tit. 3:10-11), that is, they have been cut off from the body of the Church without excommunication, as St. Jerome affirms.

    "Besides that, the second affirmation of Cajetan, that the Pope heretic can be truly and authoritatively deposed by the Church, is no less false than the first. For if the Church deposes the Pope against his will it is certainly above the Pope; however, Cajetan himself defends, in the same treatise, the contrary of this. Cajetan responds that the Church, in deposing the Pope, does not have authority over the Pope, but only over the link that unites the person to the pontificate. In the same way that the Church in uniting the pontificate to such a person, is not, because of this, above the Pontiff, so also the Church can separate the pontificate from such a person in case of heresy, without saying that it is above the Pope.

    "But contrary to this it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. In the second place, to depose anyone from the pontificate against the will of the deposed, is without doubt punishing him; however, to punish is proper to a superior or to a judge. In the third place, given that according to Cajetan and the other Thomists, in reality the whole and the parts taken as a whole are the same thing, he who has authority over the parts taken as a whole, being able to separate them one from another, has also authority over the whole itself which is constituted by those parts.

    "The example of the electors, who have the power to designate a certain person for the pontificate, without however having power over the Pope, given by Cajetan, is also destitute of value. For when something is being made, the action is exercised over the matter of the future thing, and not over the composite, which does not yet exist, but when a thing is destroyed, the action is exercised over the composite, as becomes patent on consideration of the things of nature. Therefore, on creating the Pontiff, the Cardinals do not exercise their authority over the Pontiff for he does not yet exist, but over the matter, that is, over the person who by the election becomes disposed to receive the pontificate from God. But if they deposed the Pontiff, they would necessarily exercise authority over the composite, that is, over the person endowed with the pontifical power, that is, over the Pontiff.

    "Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and outstandingly that of St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2) who speaks as follows of Novatian, who was Pope [i.e. antipope] in the schism which occurred during the pontificate of St. Cornelius: 'He would not be able to retain the episcopate [i.e. of Rome], and, if he was made bishop before, he separated himself from the body of those who were, like him, bishops, and from the unity of the Church.'

    According to what St. Cyprian affirms in this passage, even had Novatian been the true and legitimate Pope, he would have automatically fallen from the pontificate, if he separated himself from the Church.

    "This is the opinion of great recent doctors, as John Driedo (lib. 4 de Script. et dogmat. Eccles., cap. 2, par. 2, sent. 2), who teaches that only they separate themselves from the Church who are expelled, like the excommunicated, and those who depart by themselves from her or oppose her, as heretics and schismatics. And in his seventh affirmation, he maintains that in those who turn away from the Church, there remains absolutely no spiritual power over those who are in the Church. Melchior Cano says the same (lib. 4 de loc., cap. 2), teaching that heretics are neither parts nor members of the Church, and that it cannot even be conceived that anyone could be head and Pope, without being member and part (cap. ult. ad argument. 12). And he teaches in the same place, in plain words, that occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members, and that therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book I De Ecclesia.

    "The foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union. For even bad Catholics [i.e. who are not heretics] are united and are members, spiritually by faith, corporally by confession of faith and by participation in the visible sacraments; the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external; but manifest heretics do not pertain in any manner, as we have already proved."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #1 on: October 10, 2013, 09:27:38 AM »
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  • If you look at this, Cajetan actually seemed to be heading towards the material-formal distinction.


    Offline Stephanos II

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #2 on: October 10, 2013, 11:03:03 AM »
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  • Quote

    St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Roman Pontiff, Book 2, Chapter 30.

    "This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    On the Roman Pontiff

    an extract from

    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

    "The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not "ipso facto" deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.


    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

    "The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not "ipso facto" deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.

    For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.

    This is not amusing that the software stopped working properly to show quotes and bold amd umderline.

    Offline Stephanos II

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #3 on: October 10, 2013, 11:10:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stephanos II
    Quote

    St. Robert Bellarmine, On the Roman Pontiff, Book 2, Chapter 30.

    "This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.

    On the Roman Pontiff

    an extract from

    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

    "The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not "ipso facto" deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.


    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.

    "The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not "ipso facto" deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.

    For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is "ipso facto" deposed.

    This is not amusing that the software stopped working properly to show quotes and bold and underline. - I didn't put this last part in bold about the software.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #4 on: October 10, 2013, 11:15:24 AM »
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  • I have long suspected that the SSPX has the Cajetanist opinion on the matter.

    I'm not so sure that Cajetan's opinion "cannot be defended."  It seems to end up in essentially the modern day material-formal distinction regarding the papacy.

    My biggest issue with the SSPX position isn't regarding the sedevacantist question per se but with what they imply regarding the indefectibility of the Church;  SSPX implies that a legitimate Pope, a legitimate Council, and a legitimate hierarchy could in fact lead the entire Church into error.  That's contrary to the Church's indefectibility.


    Online Stubborn

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #5 on: October 10, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »
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  • What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ambrose

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #6 on: October 10, 2013, 01:22:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Online Stubborn

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #7 on: October 10, 2013, 03:25:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.


    That's not entirely correct.

    While the next chapter may deal with an heretical pope, chapter 29 tell us what we can do about it - "resist him" but we are not to "judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SJB

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #8 on: October 10, 2013, 03:26:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.


    That's not entirely correct.

    While the next chapter may deal with an heretical pope, chapter 29 tell us what we can do about it - "resist him" but we are not to "judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior".


    Well, stubborn, you are entirely wrong.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Online Stubborn

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #9 on: October 10, 2013, 03:41:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.


    That's not entirely correct.

    While the next chapter may deal with an heretical pope, chapter 29 tell us what we can do about it - "resist him" but we are not to "judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior".


    Well, stubborn, you are entirely wrong.


    So says mr. "can't understand anything explicit." You just need to find an interpreter - you'll be fine one day.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ambrose

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #10 on: October 10, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.


    That's not entirely correct.

    While the next chapter may deal with an heretical pope, chapter 29 tell us what we can do about it - "resist him" but we are not to "judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior".


    No, chapter 29 says how to respond to a bad pope, while chapter 30 says how to respond to a heretical pope.

    St. Robert discussed both scenarios separately, as they are two different problems, with two different responses from Catholics.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline 2Vermont

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #11 on: October 10, 2013, 05:29:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Stubborn
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    What do you suppose St Robert meant by this and why is the bolded part so often left off of this famous quote:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior. - (De Romano Pontifice, lib. 2, chap. 29, Opera omnia, Paris: Pedone Lauriel, 1871, vol. 1, p. 418)


    It's not omitted, it the previous chapter dealing with a bad pope, rather than a heretical pope.

    If a bad pope is trying sell Churches to enrich his family, then he can be resisted.  That principle is clear.  While not a heretic, a Pope can be resisted in acts that destroy the Church.  A pope who is evil and is destroying the Church, but who is not a heretic, keeps his office, but can be resisted in those acts which are clearly destroying the Church.

    The next chapter, 30, deals with a heretical pope.  They are two separate subjects.


    That's not entirely correct.

    While the next chapter may deal with an heretical pope, chapter 29 tell us what we can do about it - "resist him" but we are not to "judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior".


    No, chapter 29 says how to respond to a bad pope, while chapter 30 says how to respond to a heretical pope.

    St. Robert discussed both scenarios separately, as they are two different problems, with two different responses from Catholics.  


    Not to mention that it makes no sense for the previous chapter (29) to explain how to deal with a subsequent chapter (30).

    But maybe my common sense is getting in the way again.

    Can someone highlight where in chapter 30 he tells us how to respond to a heretical pope?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Stubborn

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #12 on: October 10, 2013, 05:55:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont

    Not to mention that it makes no sense for the previous chapter (29) to explain how to deal with a subsequent chapter (30).

    But maybe my common sense is getting in the way again.

    Can someone highlight where in chapter 30 he tells us how to respond to a heretical pope?


    Chapter 29 plainly sates we are permitted to resist but not depose him. That is the instruction we are given. Same instruction as Pope Paul IV gave us in cuм ex.

    I went through this with cuм ex and that other guy who got banned -  cuм ex explicitly told us the same thing as Ch. 29 above.

    The pope may be ipso facto deposed by virtue of his heresies, but other than resist him, since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against him, he cannot be removed from his office, even though he be under censure, and, according to the law, have no right to function as the head of the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ambrose

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #13 on: October 10, 2013, 11:37:37 PM »
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  • Stubborn wrote:

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    The pope may be ipso facto deposed by virtue of his heresies, but other than resist him, since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against him, he cannot be removed from his office, even though he be under censure, and, according to the law, have no right to function as the head of the Church.


    How do you know when a pope is dead?  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, lib. II, cap. 30.
    « Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 03:10:59 AM »
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  • 2Vermont wrote:

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    Can someone highlight where in chapter 30 he tells us how to respond to a heretical pope?


    St. Robert tells is that a heretical pope would immediately fall from office.  Public heresy is a recognizable fact.  It is like death, there are visible external criteria to recognize death in a man, and the same applies to heresy.

    As laypeople and even clergy, we have no power to act, we cannot juridically depose an antipope, but we can recognize that he is a publicly heretical antipope prior to the judgment of the Church.

    Once he is clearly identified with moral certainty, there is only one recourse that we have:  we must sever communion with him, as Catholics are duty bound to not have communion with heretics and must avoid them.

    So we are clear, I am not in any way saying that we must sever communion with any Catholic that remains in communion with the antipope, so long as they themselves have not defected from the Faith.

    The only bodies on earth that have the lawful power to act by electing a pope are the hierarchy and/or the clergy of Rome.  It is to them, those members of the hierarchy and the Roman Clergy that have kept the Faith, that we must hope will act by the Grace of God to end to this long vacancy of St. Peter's office.

    It is impossible for all members of the hierarchy or the clergy of Rome to have defected.  Both groups must until the end of time exist within the Church.  We can know by Faith that these groups, although dramatically diminished are still present in the world today, and through this long crisis these men have always had the power to end it and lawfully elect a pope.

    God has never left us without a solution.  It has been before our eyes the entire time.  The crisis can end when those who have been sent by God, the hierarchy or the Roman Clergy come together and elect a pope.  The election would be licit and we would most certainly have a pope again.  


    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic