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Author Topic: A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention  (Read 3363 times)

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Offline Santo Subito

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A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2012, 11:57:04 PM »
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  • How does one explain these quotes/ acts of Archbishop Lefebvre?

    http://jloughnan.tripod.com/vacilate.htm

    March 1973

    "I shall never say that the new Ordo Missae is heretical, I shall never say that it cannot be a Sacrifice. I believe that many priests, above all those priests who have known the old Ordo, -certainly have very good intentions in saying their Mass. Far be it from me to say that everything is wrong with the new Ordo." (p. 159). (Paris Lecture, March 1973 at the invitation of the Union des Intellectuels Indenendants and the Club de la Culture française per "A Bishop Speaks Mgr Marcel Lefebvre, Writings and Addresses 1963- 1975", published by Scottish Una Voce.

    Feb. 21, 1974

    "... Mgr. Lefebvre told me his point of view: it is better to have the new mass than not to have mass at all; it is safer, to avoid losing the faith, to go to the new mass than not to go at all." Letter from Fr. Coache to Fr. Barbara, 21 Feb 1974.

    Nov. 16, 1976

    Another day Mgr. Lefebvre does not blush to consider the cohabitation of the two rites. He distinguishes between "good" new masses and bad ones. Nor does he rule out assistance at the new mass to satisfy the Sunday obligation: "I think they should not abandon every public religious act and in consequence if the mass is celebrated in a respectful manner and not sacrilegious, I think that it is right to assist at this Sunday Mass in order to fulfil the obligation." Letter to Mlle. T., 15 March 1974. (ECÔNE FULL STOP, Fortes in Fide, by Fr Noél Barbara)

    Nov. 8, 1979

    Lefebvre stated that his own views had not changed over the years; that no one should be mistaken regarding his and the official position of the SSPX on the Novus Ordo Missae - which was: that no one in the SSPX could "tolerate among its members those who refuse to pray for the Pope or affirm that the Novus Ordo Missae is per se invalid..." "Catholic", July & Nov 83, p.3.

    Mar. 8, 1980

    Statement by Archbishop Lefebvre to Pope John Paul II

    "Most Holy Father,

    To Put an end to some rumours which are now spreading both in Rome and certain traditionalist circles in Europe, and even in America, concerning my attitude and my way of thinking with respect to the Pope, the Council, and the NOVUS ORDO Mass, and fearing lest these rumours should reach Your Holiness, I make so bold as to reaffirm my consistent position.
    "I have no reservations whatsoever regarding the legitimacy and validity of your election, and consequently I cannot tolerate there not being addressed to God the prayers prescribed by Holy Church for Your Holiness. I have already had to act with severity, and continue to do so, with regard to some seminarians and priests who have allowed themselves to be influenced by certain clerics who do not belong to the Society.

    I am fully in agreement with the judgement that Your Holiness gave on the Second Vatican Council, on November 6, 1978, at a meeting of the Sacred College: 'that the Council must be under- stood in light of the whole of Holy Tradition, and on the basis of the unvarying Magisterium of Holy Mother Church.

    As for the NOVUS ORDO Mass, despite the reservations which must be shown in its respect, I have never affirmed that it is in itself invalid or heretical.
    I would be grateful...hasten free use of the traditional liturgy, and the recognition of the Society...etc. ("Catholic", Jan 84, p.2).

    May 9, 1980

    The New Mass can fulfil the Sunday obligation. Lefebvre to Michael Davies. "Apologia Pro Archbishop Lefebvre" Vol 2, p. 367

    June 30, 1980

    "...in regard to the new mass, Mgr. Lefebvre knows how to join deeds with words and give an example. On 30 June 1980, on the occasion of the obsequies of a member of his family, accompanied by Fr. Simoulin, he assisted "actively" at "Luther's mass" completely in the modern fashion. (ECÔNE FULL STOP, Fortes in Fide, by Fr Noél Barbara. Please refer to 28/7/96 Item in opposite column.

    May 5, 1988

    The Protocol, however, was accepted by both parties! "The Cardinal informed us that we would now have to allow one New Mass to be celebrated at St Nicholas du Chardonnet. He insisted on the one and only Church, that of Vatican II. In spite of these disappointments, I signed the Protocol on May 5th..." (A Statement by Archbishop Lefebvre, signed June 19, 1988 - as recorded in Archbishop Lefebvre and the Vatican, p.207, by Fr. François Laisney, who was then Editor of The Angelus Press. It is to be noted here that Archbishop Lefebvre signed the protocol "to allow one New Mass to be celebrated..."- a Mass that Fathers Violette and Peek would later describe as "intrinsically evil". Was Vatican Council II Voided by Pope Pius II's "Execrabilis"? - A Commentary on Mr D.J. McDonnell's Article in Oct. 1998 "Catholic"), by F John Loughnan

    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #31 on: December 30, 2012, 12:05:55 AM »
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  • I am not claiming the Novus Ordo to be invalid. I am leaving that to the Church (although pre-Vatican II sacramental theology shows a definite doubt on that point); I am simply asserting what Archbishop Lefebvre was asserting: the Novus Ordo is a danger to one's Faith and must be avoided at all costs, especially since it contains dangerous errors. I wonder about that June 30, 1980 entry by that SSPX opponent. Archbishop Lefebvre assisting actively at the Novus Ordo? I really deny that! A sede priest's assertion isn't enough; there must be other witnesses to collaborate!

     As for the Protocol, the next day Archbishop Lefebvre withdrew his approval!
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #32 on: December 30, 2012, 12:17:25 PM »
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  • Santo, all you prove from the above quotes is that Archbishop Lefebvre didn't necessarily believe the Bogus Ordo is invalid. However, he also believed that it was only valid if the priest offering it had the proper intentions. And he once said this:

    Quote
    The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism... it bears within it a poison harmful to the Faith.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #33 on: December 30, 2012, 02:45:48 PM »
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  • Yeah, what SpiritusSanctus said plus this.


    Quote
    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (SSPX): "[T]here is great danger for the Faith in the liturgy of Pope Paul VI, which is unacceptable" ("Letter to Friends & Benefactors" on the dismissal of Sedevacantist Priests, April 28, 1983)

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    • PRAY "...FOR THE CHURCH OF DARKNESS TO LEAVE ROME"
    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #34 on: December 30, 2012, 02:54:06 PM »
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  • There are also other quotes from him, which diminish the strength of the quotes given by Sancto. For example:

    Quote
    This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, Bishops, priests, or the faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.


    That is more like it !!!

    I got that quote from your signature, Spiritus!

    I like that one better than Subito's quotes.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV


    Offline Sede Catholic

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    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #35 on: December 30, 2012, 03:04:08 PM »
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  • Pio, +1 for your post.

    It won't let me thumb you up at the moment !

    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    A Few Points About The Ottaviani Intervention
    « Reply #36 on: December 30, 2012, 06:47:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sede Catholic
    There are also other quotes from him, which diminish the strength of the quotes given by Sancto. For example:

    Quote
    This Conciliar Church is, therefore, not Catholic. To whatever extent Pope, Bishops, priests, or the faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church.


    That is more like it !!!

    I got that quote from your signature, Spiritus!

    I like that one better than Subito's quotes.


    Yes, Sede, that is on of my favorite quotes from the Archbishop.

    Show that quote to the accordistas, and watch them squirm.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.