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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Incredulous on January 21, 2020, 09:56:49 PM

Title: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 21, 2020, 09:56:49 PM

Both papacies were publicly identified by the Holy Ghost.


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fcatholicsaints.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fimg-Pope-Saint-Fabian1.jpg%3Fresize%3D300%252C406&f=1&nofb=1)
                           St. Pope Fabian


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Oin9LYj6pBkjrjL5X-t5OgHaI4%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: poche on January 21, 2020, 11:06:10 PM
The difference is that if Siri was chosen and elected then apparently he rejected that election and they chose someone else. 
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 22, 2020, 08:27:09 AM
The difference is that if Siri was chosen and elected then apparently he rejected that election and they chose someone else.

Another lie, poche.  No, per the reconstructed events, he accepted and then stepped down under duress.  He did not "reject" the election.  
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 22, 2020, 08:36:19 AM
By contract, Benedict released a "peace dove" from the window in 2013, and it was promptly attacked by a seagull.  Francis did the same thing in 2014, and the same thing happened to his dove.

Does anyone remember when the dove attacked John Paul II?

Benedict 2013:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpKjFVN39U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpKjFVN39U)

Francis 2014:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_JnOi4q7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_JnOi4q7w)

I can't find footage of when the dove/pigeon attacked John Paul II.

(https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/794048/original/?width=500&version=794048)
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 22, 2020, 08:47:18 AM
I also recall during the funeral of John Paul II, that the winds blew closed out the candles and blew closed the Gospel.

Do you know what ceremony entails blowing out a candle and closing the Gospel (the book of life)?

Yes, the ceremony of excommunication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell,_book,_and_candle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell,_book,_and_candle)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_doCOT5dbc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_doCOT5dbc)
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 22, 2020, 10:43:11 AM
The difference is that if Siri was chosen and elected then apparently he rejected that election and they chose someone else.

Please shut up...
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 22, 2020, 05:43:47 PM
Looks like the Holy Ghost later tried to identify Randy Johnson as the pope back in 2001 but that didn't turn out so well. :jester:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyCpG06138
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 22, 2020, 05:49:27 PM
Looks like the Holy Ghost later tried to identify Randy Johnson as the pope back in 2001 but that didn't turn out so well. :jester:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyCpG06138

Hilarious ... well, except for the poor bird.  I've never seen this before.  This was Johnson saying that he refused to be considered for the position.

So, in baseball rules, was that called a ball or a strike?

Wow, that looked like it knocked EVERY SINGLE feather off that bird's body.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 22, 2020, 05:52:49 PM
Of course, on further inspection, it does not appear that the dove was headed TOWARD Johnson.  We may never know which concession-stand employee was supposed to be the next pope.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on January 22, 2020, 07:05:15 PM
Looks like the Holy Ghost later tried to identify Randy Johnson as the pope back in 2001 but that didn't turn out so well. :jester:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyCpG06138
WOW. Last time I saw something like that, I was 15 years old on a par 4 and I hit a bird in flight with my golf ball.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 22, 2020, 09:41:54 PM


The testimony of a dove representing the Holy Ghost, alighting upon Fabian's head is clear. 


Eusebius, born just a few years after Fabian’s death, tells us how Fabian came to Rome after Pope Anteros died in 236. A layperson, and not a very important one, he may have come for the same reason many still come to Rome today during a papal election: concern for the future of the faith, curiosity about the new pope, a desire to grieve for the pope who had passed. Seeing all the important people gathered to make this momentous decision must have been overwhelming. Which one would be the new pope? Someone known for power? Someone known for eloquence? Someone known for courage?

Suddenly during the discussion, a dove descended from the ceiling. But it didn’t settle on “someone known” for anything at all. The dove, according to Eusebius, “settled on [Fabian’s] head as clear imitation of the descent of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove upon the Savior.” There must have been something of the Holy Spirit working because everyone suddenly proclaimed Fabian as “worthy” to be pope and this stranger was elected.
To us the dove signifies peace, and this dove was prophetic. Starting close to Fabian’s election, the suffering and persecuted Church began a time of peace. The emperor, Philip, was friendly to Christians and not only was the persecution stopped but Christians experienced acceptance.
In this era of peace, Fabian was able to build up the structure of the Church of Rome, appointing seven deacons and helping to collect the acts of the martyrs.

But, in a timeless story, the people who had always been in power were not happy to see the newcomers growing and thriving. There were many incidents of pagans attacking Christians and when Philip died so died the time of peace. The new emperor, Decius, ordered all Christians to deny Christ by offering incense to idols or through some other pagan ritual.

In the few years of peace, the Church had grown soft. Many didn’t have the courage to stand up to martyrdom. But Fabian, singled out by symbol of peace, stood as a courageous example for everyone in his flock. He died a martyr in 250 and is buried in the Cemetery of Calixtus that he helped rebuild and beautify. A stone slab with his name can still be found there. Broken into four pieces, the stone bears the Greek words, “Fabian, bishop, martyr.”

LINK (https://ucatholic.com/saints/pope-st-fabian/)



So too, was the perfect alighting of Cardinal Siri's dove, during Holy Mass. 


 (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Oin9LYj6pBkjrjL5X-t5OgHaI4%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on January 22, 2020, 10:36:42 PM

The testimony of a dove representing the Holy Ghost, alighting upon Fabian's head is clear.  


Eusebius, born just a few years after Fabian’s death, tells us how Fabian came to Rome after Pope Anteros died in 236. A layperson, and not a very important one, he may have come for the same reason many still come to Rome today during a papal election: concern for the future of the faith, curiosity about the new pope, a desire to grieve for the pope who had passed. Seeing all the important people gathered to make this momentous decision must have been overwhelming. Which one would be the new pope? Someone known for power? Someone known for eloquence? Someone known for courage?

Suddenly during the discussion, a dove descended from the ceiling. But it didn’t settle on “someone known” for anything at all. The dove, according to Eusebius, “settled on [Fabian’s] head as clear imitation of the descent of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove upon the Savior.” There must have been something of the Holy Spirit working because everyone suddenly proclaimed Fabian as “worthy” to be pope and this stranger was elected.
To us the dove signifies peace, and this dove was prophetic. Starting close to Fabian’s election, the suffering and persecuted Church began a time of peace. The emperor, Philip, was friendly to Christians and not only was the persecution stopped but Christians experienced acceptance.
In this era of peace, Fabian was able to build up the structure of the Church of Rome, appointing seven deacons and helping to collect the acts of the martyrs.

But, in a timeless story, the people who had always been in power were not happy to see the newcomers growing and thriving. There were many incidents of pagans attacking Christians and when Philip died so died the time of peace. The new emperor, Decius, ordered all Christians to deny Christ by offering incense to idols or through some other pagan ritual.

In the few years of peace, the Church had grown soft. Many didn’t have the courage to stand up to martyrdom. But Fabian, singled out by symbol of peace, stood as a courageous example for everyone in his flock. He died a martyr in 250 and is buried in the Cemetery of Calixtus that he helped rebuild and beautify. A stone slab with his name can still be found there. Broken into four pieces, the stone bears the Greek words, “Fabian, bishop, martyr.”

LINK (https://ucatholic.com/saints/pope-st-fabian/)



So too, was the perfect alighting of Cardinal Siri's dove, during Holy Mass.  


 (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Oin9LYj6pBkjrjL5X-t5OgHaI4%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
It sounds like a nice theory that Siri is the modern day St. Fabian but look at his actions post V2: celebrated new mass and suooorted the V2 heretical “popes”. That’s certainly not martyrdom like St. Fabian endured, that’s offering incense to the pagan “gods”. If Siri was exiled forever and never seen again, then maybe this would have weight.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 23, 2020, 06:47:27 AM
It sounds like a nice theory that Siri is the modern day St. Fabian but look at his actions post V2: celebrated new mass and suooorted the V2 heretical “popes”. That’s certainly not martyrdom like St. Fabian endured, that’s offering incense to the pagan “gods”. If Siri was exiled forever and never seen again, then maybe this would have weight.

Yeah, blow-off the visible sign, as the Genoans did in 1958.


Read the permanent instruction of ʝʊdɛօ-masonry’s Alta Vendita.


The 1958 Conclave was hijacked and abrogated.


But then, maybe it’s more comfortable for neo-trads to live with and accept the destroyer jew-Popes?
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on January 23, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
Yeah, blow-off the visible sign, as the Genoans did in 1958.


Read the permanent instruction of ʝʊdɛօ-masonry’s Alta Vendita.


The 1958 Conclave was hijacked and abrogated.


But then, maybe it’s more comfortable for neo-trads to live with and accept the destroyer jew-Popes?
If the picture was from 1957 then there’s no way it proves Siri to be the pope because Pius Xii was still alive. If it’s  in 1958 then it’s either A. Before Pius Xii died, or B. After the conclave because he is in genoa and not Rome. 
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 23, 2020, 07:38:12 PM
CIA,

Even the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency’s internal reports cited that Cardinal Siri was elected pope.

The Holy Ghost coming upon his head, during Holy Mass was confirmation of the fact that he was the the most favored choice to succeed Pius XII.

The two key items for a newly elected
Pope to do, are to accept the office and to choose a name.  He did both.

While he was intimidated, made to step aside and even take an oath of silence, he was still the Pope.  

And even the ʝʊdɛօ-masons, who usurped the papacy, knew he was the hidden pope.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on January 23, 2020, 08:30:35 PM
CIA,

Even the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency’s internal reports cited that Cardinal Siri was elected pope.

The Holy Ghost coming upon his head, during Holy Mass was confirmation of the fact that he was the the most favored choice to succeed Pius XII.

The two key items for a newly elected
Pope to do, are to accept the office and to choose a name.  He did both.

While he was intimidated, made to step aside and even take an oath of silence, he was still the Pope.  

And even the ʝʊdɛօ-masons, who usurped the papacy, knew he was the hidden pope.
How do u reconcile his actions later in his life with him being a true pope?
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 23, 2020, 09:10:22 PM
How do u reconcile his actions later in his life with him being a true pope?

He failed like St. Peter failed Our Lord.

He lacked the courage and grace to face down the threats presented to his family and the Church.

He took a secret oath and kept silent while the visible Church was being plundered.  All grievous sins.

But he was the true Pope and near the end of his life he is said to have recanted.  And I believe there’s evidence he was poisoned when it was realized he had breaking with newChurch.

And in that respect, he was similar to St. Pope Fabian.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 23, 2020, 09:19:15 PM
CIA,

Even the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency’s internal reports cited that Cardinal Siri was elected pope.

The Holy Ghost coming upon his head, during Holy Mass was confirmation of the fact that he was the the most favored choice to succeed Pius XII.

The two key items for a newly elected
Pope to do, are to accept the office and to choose a name.  He did both.

While he was intimidated, made to step aside and even take an oath of silence, he was still the Pope.  

And even the ʝʊdɛօ-masons, who usurped the papacy, knew he was the hidden pope.
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Err, I feel like I'm about to jump head-first into a pair of spinning rotary blades, but here goes. Geronimo!
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Regarding the CIA having reports about Cardinal Siri, it would be more accurate to say that an apostate traditional Catholic named Paul Williams wrote a wretched anti-Catholic book in the early 2000s in which he claimed that the CIA (actually I think it was the State Department) had docuмents that one of their informants had told them that Cardinal Siri had been elected (cf. https://novusordowatch.org/fbi-consultant-cardinal-siri-elected-pope-1958/ ) Even assuming this statement to be true (more on that later ...), it tells us nothing unless we know the identity and credibility of this "informant", and what sort of access he would have to this information. His claim would likewise have to be tested against the well-known high level of secrecy surrounding every papal conclave, in which each participating cardinal swears under oath never to reveal what happened in that conclave. The "informant", should he ever be identified, would have to explain how one of the cardinals violated this oath to give him this supposed information.
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However, there is good reason to doubt the existence of these docuмents that the State Department supposedly has. The book that made this claim did not give a very informative footnote to this strange supposed fact. The footnotes for this statement claimed that the docuмent in question had been declassified in 1974 and 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siri_thesis#History_of_the_thesis). Obviously as soon as this book came out a bunch of trads called up the State Department and the FBI asking for these docuмents. They were told they doesn't exist. They even filed Freedom of Information Act requests (https://novusordowatch.org/fbi-consultant-cardinal-siri-elected-pope-1958/) demanding access, with the same results. This raises the interesting question, if the docuмents exist, why can't anyone see them? Paul Williams does not (as far as I know) have top-secret clearance, so how did he manage to see this? And before someone responds that the government would never release something like that even in response to a FOIA request, I would answer that 1) then how did Williams supposedly see it? and 2) they actually do release docuмents they don't want people to see, but just redact them heavily.
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Oh, and don't bother to call the author of the book and ask him to explain any of this. Word is that he hangs up the phone on anyone calling to ask him about Cardinal Siri's election. Another thing about this whole story that does not inspire confidence ...
EDIT: formatting problems
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: roscoe on January 23, 2020, 11:30:03 PM
Bp Williamson is on record saying that Card Siri may very well have been elected in 1958 AND 1963....

MO is that the reason P Williams hangs up on Siri inquisitors is that he released the info w/o realising how important it was... he has now been told to shut up... :popcorn:
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 24, 2020, 05:49:15 AM

For a moment,

Let’s turn the questions around and ask Yeti if he thinks, 5 minutes of “white smoke” over St. Peter’s Square a Vatican maintenance man’s mistake?

And if he believes Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli was a canonically elected pope in a disrupted conclave?  

A conclave where the Cardinals were threatened with excommunication AFTER the election, if they spoke of the unusual activities that went on there.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 08:11:27 AM
In Williams' favor, the mention of the Siri election came only in passing; it was in a FOOTNOTE, and he made no big deal about it, but was matter-of-fact.  This suggests that he didn't have any kind of agenda here.  I highly doubt that he fabricated the docuмent, impugning his credibility and his reputation, simply for a footnote.

It's very likely that this docuмent was declassified by mistake in some procedure.  When Williams brought it to light, it was then reclassified and hidden away.  Williams won't talk about it, and that could be either because he has been instructed not to (since it was reclassified) or else because he's simply annoyed by having undoubtedly received 300 calls about this subject.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 08:17:55 AM
For a moment,

Let’s turn the questions around and ask Yeti if he thinks, 5 minutes of “white smoke” over St. Peter’s Square a Vatican maintenance man’s mistake?

And if he believes Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli was a canonically elected pope in a disrupted conclave?  

A conclave where the Cardinals were threatened with excommunication AFTER the election, if they spoke of the unusual activities that went on there.

And it's not honest to reduce the evidence for the Siri thesis to the white smoke.  There's tons of evidence.  No smoking gun, but lots of evidence.

https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/cardinal-siri-elections/ (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/cardinal-siri-elections/)


Quote
The mystery behind the white smoke and the secret post-election meeting of the 1958 Conclave may not have been uncovered if it were not for Mr. Scortesco.  Scortesco was the cousin of two members of the Vatican’s Noble Guard, including the President of the Noble Guard, which was responsible for guarding the conclaves of 1958 and 1963 and making sure that no communication occurred with the outside.  Scortesco revealed the following in a published letter:

Quote
Scortesco: “In the case of John XXIII (1958) and of Paul VI (1963), there were communications with the outside.  It was thus known that there were several ballots in the first conclave [1958] which resulted in the election of Cardinal Tedeschini and in the second [1963], Cardinal Siri.” (Excerpt from the French Newsletter, Introibo, No. 61, July-August-September, 1988, Association Noel Pinot, Angers, France, p. 3.)

Scortesco obtained this shocking information from members of the Noble Guard.  The letter was published in IntroiboAnd Scortesco was found burned alive in his bed shortly after the publication of this letter.  So Scortesco, prior to being knocked off, revealed that Cardinal Tedeschini, not Antipope John XXIII, was actually elected first in 1958.  And Cardinal Siri, not Antipope Paul VI, was elected first in 1963.

In the letter quoted above, Scortesco also mentioned communication with the “outside.”  His later writings indicate that this communication involved the B’nai Brith (Jєωιѕн Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ).  If communications with the “outside” unlawfully influence a Papal election, this means that such an election is invalid.  The “outside” communication with the Freemasons most probably prevented Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, probably by various threats, including death.  The Communists and the Freemasons knew that neither Siri nor Tedeschini would go along with their evil attempts to destroy the Catholic Church; so they had to block their elections.  If the “outside” communication mentioned by Scortesco did influence Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, then the subsequent elections of Roncalli [John XXIII] and Montini [Paul VI] were absolutely invalid for that fact alone.

Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: CatholicInAmerica on January 24, 2020, 08:39:01 AM
And it's not honest to reduce the evidence for the Siri thesis to the white smoke.  There's tons of evidence.  No smoking gun, but lots of evidence.

https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/cardinal-siri-elections/ (https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/cardinal-siri-elections/)


Scortesco obtained this shocking information from members of the Noble Guard.  The letter was published in Introibo. And Scortesco was found burned alive in his bed shortly after the publication of this letter.  So Scortesco, prior to being knocked off, revealed that Cardinal Tedeschini, not Antipope John XXIII, was actually elected first in 1958.  And Cardinal Siri, not Antipope Paul VI, was elected first in 1963.

In the letter quoted above, Scortesco also mentioned communication with the “outside.”  His later writings indicate that this communication involved the B’nai Brith (Jєωιѕн Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ).  If communications with the “outside” unlawfully influence a Papal election, this means that such an election is invalid.  The “outside” communication with the Freemasons most probably prevented Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, probably by various threats, including death.  The Communists and the Freemasons knew that neither Siri nor Tedeschini would go along with their evil attempts to destroy the Catholic Church; so they had to block their elections.  If the “outside” communication mentioned by Scortesco did influence Tedeschini and Siri from having the free ability to accept their elections, then the subsequent elections of Roncalli [John XXIII] and Montini [Paul VI] were absolutely invalid for that fact alone.
Ok let’s say I accept the Siri thesis and that he was pope until his death. Where is his successor? Do we know any of his cardinals? 
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 08:49:41 AM
Ok let’s say I accept the Siri thesis and that he was pope until his death. Where is his successor? Do we know any of his cardinals?

He didn't have a successor or Cardinals ... one or two nutjobs on the web notwithstanding.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: 2Vermont on January 24, 2020, 11:46:02 AM
He didn't have a successor or Cardinals ... one or two nutjobs on the web notwithstanding.
So.....we're still in a state of sedevacante regardless.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 01:35:06 PM
For a moment,

Let’s turn the questions around and ask Yeti if he thinks, 5 minutes of “white smoke” over St. Peter’s Square a Vatican maintenance man’s mistake?

And if he believes Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli was a canonically elected pope in a disrupted conclave?  

A conclave where the Cardinals were threatened with excommunication AFTER the election, if they spoke of the unusual activities that went on there.
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Yeah, it's hard to say. On the one hand I find the whole story very appealing both from a theological point of view and also from a dramatic point of view, and I would really like to believe it too. But there are so many major problems with the whole thing.
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To answer your question, yes, I do think the white smoke could have been a mistake. We look at 1950's Italy from a modern American point of view. If we were doing this today (and probably back in 2013 in the election that gave us Pope Satan I), we would have a live video feed aiming at the chimney, and probably streaming video right onto the iPhone of the Monsignor who is stoking the fire. So it's hard for us to imagine how such a mistake could go on for 5 minutes. But in 1950s Italy I don't think it's a stretch.
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First of all, the combustible material was being used for the first time in this conclave. Instead of the usual straw, they used some chemicals supplied by a pyrotechnics factory. I believe this has been docuмented and proved. So they could easily have used them wrong. It's important to remember that Italians are great artists and musicians, but they are not well-known for being practical or detail-oriented. If Americans had put this on, they would have had several test-runs with these chemicals to make sure they worked before the conclave. In Italy, I really doubt they would have bothered. They would have simply trusted the word of the factory and not bothered to make sure. They just aren't that careful about "minor details" like that, as a culture.
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Secondly, we assume they would have had walkie-talkies communicating from the outside to the guy at the stove, so that any mistake could have been corrected in half a minute. Because in America that's how we would have coordinated this event. But again, this is Italy. They would have laughed at the idea of having a spotter outside with some electronic gadget, and said they have been electing popes in Rome for two millennia and they didn't need to start worrying now that they can't produce white or black smoke.
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Thirdly, why would it have taken so long to correct the color of the smoke? Well, there would have to be someone to see the smoke outside, realize the color is wrong, and get word inside. How would anyone outside know the white smoke was in error in the first place? Presumably the cardinals inside would have heard the cheering outside and been puzzled at the cheering at black smoke, realized there might be a mistake about the color of the smoke, and sent a messenger out to check the color. How long he would have had to walk through those corridors is anybody's guess, to get to a place where he could see the smoke, assess the color, and come all the way back to tell them the color was wrong. The Vatican is a gigantic place, and it could possibly be hundreds of yards through corridors from the Sistine Chapel to anywhere where you could see the smoke. When you figure all this together, I don't see any great difficulty with the smoke being the wrong color for that long.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 01:51:24 PM
According to the Wikipedia article, the New York Times (not that I consider that a reliable source, but it's all I could find) reported that day that both ballots produced white smoke, at noon and in the evening. If the white smoke came out twice, that makes the whole idea almost unworkable. Imagine how this would go down:
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[Noon in the Sistine Chapel]
Camerlengo: Cardinal Siri, you have received enough votes to be pope.
Cardinal Siri: Thank you, I accept the election!
Freemasons: Your Eminence, we will nuke Italy if you become pope.
Cardinal Siri: Yikes! Okay, I resign!
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[Evening that same day]
Camerlengo again: Cardinal Siri, you have received enough votes to be elected.
Cardinal Siri: I accept!!
Freemasons: Hey! We told you we would nuke Italy, remember???
Cardinal Siri: Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about that! Okay, I resign again!
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This whole scenario is pretty absurd. Either it happened only once, or it didn't happen at all. It could not have happened twice in the same day, and yet that's what some reports seem to suggest. So, if white smoke came out twice in the same day, that points much more strongly to some issues with smoke production.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 02:17:19 PM
Doing further digging on the information provided by Ladislaus, I'm not sure it helps that much more. The story about Paul Scortesco, who had inside knowledge of the conclave that he published in the early 1980s and was founded burned to death shortly afterwards, seems alarming at first, but it breaks down pretty quickly.
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First of all, this is the only source I could find for the rumor of Cardinal Siri's election, and there are only three websites that have this information on the internet at all, and they mostly copy from each other. None of them provided any footnotes or links to outside sources in confirmation of any of this information. We're already off to a terrible start, but let's see what we have ...
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Scortesco claims that the French Cardinals left the conclave to confer with the outside, the freemasons. This was the explosive revelation that supposedly got him murdered (more on that later). It turns out, Cardinal Siri denies Scortesco's claims. From one of the three websites: According to Scortesco, during that conclave Cardinal Tisserant left to meet with representatives of B’nai B’rith, and told them Siri had been elected!  They in turn said that for the new pope to continue as such would immediately precipitate another round of persecutions against the Church. [...] During the 1985 interview at the Cardinal’s palace in Genoa, when Remy and his two companions, Francois Dallais and Monsieur de la Franquerie, asked Siri himself about the above incident, his response was precise and firm.  “No,” he said, “no one left the Conclave.”
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Um, okay, so the only person who would know about this actually denies it. Let's keep going with the story, as things are just going to keep getting worse:
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Asked whether he had been elected pope, however, the Cardinal reacted quite differently…  After a long silence, he “raised his eyes to heaven” as though in pain and suffering.  Joining his hands, he said gravely: “I am bound by the secret.  This secret is horrible.  I would have books to write about the different conclaves.  Very serious things have taken place.  But I can say nothing.”
 
Remy thinks that “if he had not been elected pope, he would have said so” with the same sort of firm, categorical “No,” given the previous question.  He thus concludes that Siri had in fact been elected, but, feeling “bound by the secret”, “took refuge behind it.”
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What??! Cardinal Siri refuses to answer if he was elected, and Remy takes this to mean that he was elected?? Talk about tendentious reasoning. The argument that "if he had not been elected pope, he would have said so" is completely false, because either answer (yes or no) would have likewise violated the secret of the conclave, as either answer divulges knowledge about what did or didn't happen inside. The only answer Cardinal Siri could have given that would not have divulged information about the conclave would be exactly what he said, that he cannot confirm or deny.
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Just to conclude, the last quote of Siri that "serious things took place" in the conclave doesn't mean that he was elected or threatened. It can mean literally anything. And that conclave produced Johnny Roncalli as pope(?), so yeah, no duh serious things took place in that conclave! Tell us something we don't know! But to say that "serious things took place" is equivalent to saying or somehow implies "I was elected and threatened to resign" is just silly.
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Lastly, I am extremely curious about the "suspicious" death of Scortesco, but I couldn't find anything about it on the internet. This by itself makes me question it, as it seems to be lacking in any kind of source. Do we have a police report of this fire? Was his death considered suspicious by the police? Why can't I find any mention of it on the internet, in newspaper articles or anyone else who might have thought it suspicious at the time, for the same reason we do? And did this guy have a habit of smoking cigarettes in bed? Again, Italy has a lot of very old houses that aren't exactly fire safe, and back then lots of people smoked cigarettes. This is now 30 years after the election of Roncalli, so I'm assuming Scortesco is getting up in years by this point. We need a little more evidence than "he was found burned in his bed" to really conclude that he was murdered.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 03:27:43 PM
What??! Cardinal Siri refuses to answer if he was elected, and Remy takes this to mean that he was elected?? Talk about tendentious reasoning.

He made this inference based on the fact that he readily said "no" when asked other questions about what happened in the conclave that he did not believe were true.  He did not see himself bound by the oath not to DENY things that did not happen, but could not speak about what did.  If he had not been elected, he could have just said, "no, I was not elected," in line with his previous answers.  I think that this is a very reasonable conclusion.

You can try to pick apart each detail, but when you put it ALL together,

the smoke signals,
Vatican loud speaker and radio reports that a pope had been elected,
Cardinals' assistants waving back to the crowd when the celebrations began,
Roncalli's unprecedented secret meeting after the conclave, so secretive that
Tisserant excommunicated Tardini on the spot for entering by mistake,
Scortesco's testimony,
Scortesco's death shortly after said testimony,
Malachi Martin,
Paul Williams,
Siri's statement, with an anguished look, that very serious things happened in the conclaves,
various Catholics prophecies regarding an Antipope usurping the See,
Sister Lucia stating that the Fatima Third Secret would be much clearer by 1960, a prophecy which according to those who read it referred to an apostasy beginning at the top,

and last but not least

the unprecedented Crisis and Apostasy in the Church, with a purported Ecuмenical Council that followed Masonic blueprints.

Add in Roncalli's disturbing background, accusations that he was a Mason, his strange use of the phrase "mysterious force" in his first Encyclical, a traditional occult name for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Roncalli's foreknowledge that he would be elected ...

Entire books could be written about the conspiracy here.  Only the willfully blind will deny it.

Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 03:30:09 PM
So.....we're still in a state of sedevacante regardless.

But a 30-year vacancy rather than a 60-year vacancy ... if all this is true.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 04:11:29 PM
He made this inference based on the fact that he readily said "no" when asked other questions about what happened in the conclave that he did not believe were true.  He did not see himself bound by the oath not to DENY things that did not happen, but could not speak about what did.  If he had not been elected, he could have just said, "no, I was not elected," in line with his previous answers.  I think that this is a very reasonable conclusion.
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Are you referring to his statement that nobody left the conclave to confer with the outside? This wouldn't be a statement about anything that happened *inside* the conclave. This may seem like a quibble, but it's true. If he says that nobody left the conclave, that's information that would be observable to people outside the conclave. It is a statement about what happened *outside* the conclave (or rather, did not happen), nor does it reveal anything about anything happening inside.
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If I misread your statement, can you please set me straight and indicate which statements he said that revealed things inside the conclave.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 04:15:57 PM
If he had not been elected, he could have just said, "no, I was not elected," in line with his previous answers.  I think that this is a very reasonable conclusion.
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Er, no, not without violating his oath. He said his oath preventing him from saying anything. Even saying "No, I was not elected" is making a statement about events that took place in the conclave. Try this experiment (actually don't ...): After you see a priest hear someone's confession, go up to him and ask him if that penitent confessed any mortal sins. Can the priest just say "no" if that's the answer? Moral theologians would probably say this does not violate the seal of confession, but more likely the priest will decline to give any answer. There's a huge difference between saying "no" and declining to answer, and if someone is under an oath of secrecy, he must decline to answer a question like that.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Incredulous on January 24, 2020, 04:25:34 PM
He made this inference based on the fact that he readily said "no" when asked other questions about what happened in the conclave that he did not believe were true.  He did not see himself bound by the oath not to DENY things that did not happen, but could not speak about what did.  If he had not been elected, he could have just said, "no, I was not elected," in line with his previous answers.  I think that this is a very reasonable conclusion.

You can try to pick apart each detail, but when you put it ALL together,

the smoke signals,
Vatican loud speaker and radio reports that a pope had been elected,
Cardinals' assistants waving back to the crowd when the celebrations began,
Roncalli's unprecedented secret meeting after the conclave, so secretive that
Tisserant excommunicated Tardini on the spot for entering by mistake,
Scortesco's testimony,
Scortesco's death shortly after said testimony,
Malachi Martin,
Paul Williams,
Siri's statement, with an anguished look, that very serious things happened in the conclaves,
various Catholics prophecies regarding an Antipope usurping the See,
Sister Lucia stating that the Fatima Third Secret would be much clearer by 1960, a prophecy which according to those who read it referred to an apostasy beginning at the top,

and last but not least

the unprecedented Crisis and Apostasy in the Church, with a purported Ecuмenical Council that followed Masonic blueprints.

Add in Roncalli's disturbing background, accusations that he was a Mason, his strange use of the phrase "mysterious force" in his first Encyclical, a traditional occult name for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Roncalli's foreknowledge that he would be elected ...

Entire books could be written about the conspiracy here.  Only the willfully blind will deny it.

Excellent summary! 
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 04:42:26 PM
You can try to pick apart each detail, but when you put it ALL together,

the smoke signals, easily could be a mistake
Vatican loud speaker and radio reports that a pope had been elected, triggered by previous
Cardinals' assistants waving back to the crowd when the celebrations began, possibly triggered by smoke
Roncalli's unprecedented secret meeting after the conclave, so secretive that
Tisserant excommunicated Tardini on the spot for entering by mistake, I will discuss this below
Scortesco's testimony, which Siri denied
Scortesco's death shortly after said testimony, not all that suspicious
Malachi Martin, oh please no ...
Paul Williams, already discussed, and lacking evidence
Siri's statement, with an anguished look, that very serious things happened in the conclaves, yeah! John 23 happened!!!
various Catholics prophecies regarding an Antipope usurping the See, oh, we certainly have that, I agree
Sister Lucia stating that the Fatima Third Secret would be much clearer by 1960, a prophecy which according to those who read it referred to an apostasy beginning at the top, yes, but could simply refer to John 23 and his successors

and last but not least

the unprecedented Crisis and Apostasy in the Church, with a purported Ecuмenical Council that followed Masonic blueprints.

Add in Roncalli's disturbing background, accusations that he was a Mason, his strange use of the phrase "mysterious force" in his first Encyclical, a traditional occult name for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Roncalli's foreknowledge that he would be elected ...

Entire books could be written about the conspiracy here.  Only the willfully blind will deny it.
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Sorry, maybe I haven't been sufficiently clear on my position. I certainly agree with you on all the stuff about anti-popes usurping the Holy See starting in this conclave. The only part I don't really accept is the explanation that Cardinal Siri was elected first.
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The meeting of Roncalli with the cardinals afterwards is a little weird, assuming it's unprecedented (I am not really convinced of that, but supposing it is). It could easily be that he was afraid people might come out later and question the election once he started with his modernist agenda, and maybe he just wanted to scare the cardinals into not even thinking about doing that. It doesn't necessarily point to the Cardinal Siri thesis.
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Part of my problem with the Siri thesis is that it's too Hollywoodesque. It reads like a James Bond movie, except without James Bond. A conclave is proceeding normally and elects a pious Italian cardinal whom everyone wants. Suddenly several villains on the inside violate the secret by communicating with a nefarious organization. They threaten apocalyptic catastrophe to the meeting of those venerable empurpled eminences, terrifying them into electing their own man instead. They put a gun to the head of the man at the stove, ordering him to send out black smoke. Everyone inside is threatened with dire punishments if they ever breathe a word. They all take it to their graves, except the head of security, who confides in his cousin on his deathbed. Thirty years later, the cousin breaths a whisper to an unknown French newsletter, and is found murdered in his bed, but the police covered the whole thing up on orders from above. There are secret records of this in the U.S. government, which accidentally got leaked, but were covered up again so fast that no one could find any trace of them. And Men In Black "got to" the guy who leaked this information, and now he's terrified of saying anything about what he saw that he refuses to say anything.
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I mean, really? This whole narrative sounds a lot more like Hollywood-fueled fantasy and American folklore than the events we have seen in the Church since 1958. Isn't it much easier just to believe that there were a lot of modernist cardinals in 1958, and they won the election? It was only a couple of years later that it became known to the entire world that the entire hierarchy of bishops -- over 2,000 of them -- were willing to sign the modernist docuмents of Vatican 2. How big of a stretch is it to think that the modernist cardinals got two-thirds plus one on Roncalli? It's certainly more likely than the story I outlined in the previous paragraph.
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Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Ladislaus on January 24, 2020, 05:02:35 PM
...

And you've proven my point with your comments inserted by each point.  It's unlikely that ALL of your dismissals are true.  If there are a dozen indicators in favor of a possible Siri election, they would ALL have to be false for you to be able to say that there's nothing there.  It's a major stretch.

I don't buy it for one second that ALL of those pieces of evidence are nonsense, simply because Yeti wishes to gratuitously dismiss them.  I in turn gratuitously reject your gratuitous denials.
Title: Re: St. Pope Fabian and Cardinal Siri
Post by: Yeti on January 24, 2020, 05:28:17 PM
And you've proven my point with your comments inserted by each point.  It's unlikely that ALL of your dismissals are true.  If there are a dozen indicators in favor of a possible Siri election, they would ALL have to be false for you to be able to say that there's nothing there.  It's a major stretch.

I don't buy it for one second that ALL of those pieces of evidence are nonsense, simply because Yeti wishes to gratuitously dismiss them.  I in turn gratuitously reject your gratuitous denials.
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Yeah, who knows. Maybe I'll change my mind someday. Maybe some day the truth will come out. But as the Italians say, "Se non è vero, è ben trovato." Even if it's not true, it sure makes a good story. Have a great weekend, Lad! :cowboy: