If a Pope seems to be a formal heretic, then,  let the Church (not we) declare it for certain. The Church alone can say whether any Pope is  Catholic or not.  Bellarmine is correct but  we could not know it for certain, only the Church can assure where ambiguity reigns. Guimaraes and SSPX are right about that. Else any crank can say a Pope is a heretic ipso facto, as some do going all the way back to St. Pius X.

Humility. Sureness... Otherwise...

008 said:

If a Pope seems to be a formal heretic, then,  let the Church (not we) declare it for certain. The Church alone can say whether any Pope is  Catholic or not.

What Church are you referring to?  The VII sect?  Do you think the Mafia is going to appear one day at the police station and ask to be placed in handcuffs?

The rest of what you're saying is nonsense.  It may be true for someone like Benedict XV, but not for Ratzinger.  A manifest, public heretic is presumed guilty.  Read cuм Ex Apostolatus again.  If anyone is shown to be a heretic prior to election, as Ratzinger did in a million ways, and he gets elected Pope, his election is NULL and VOID, and ANYONE who expresses communion with him may be treated as a warlock, heathen and publican.

St. Catherine is referring to the Pope.  Ratzinger is not the Pope.

This is a circular argument which is false.  You are saying "St Catherine can't be telling us not to judge Pope Benedict XVI because I have judged him to not be the Pope."

Ridiculous.

Quote from: Raoul76

St. Catherine is referring to the Pope.  Ratzinger is not the Pope.

This is a circular argument which is false.  You are saying "St Catherine can't be telling us not to judge Pope Benedict XVI because I have judged him to not be the Pope."

Ridiculous.

Very true, Jamie. Unfortunately your comments will fall upon deaf ears. These radical sedes are too caught up in enjoying the enormous freedom they have now that they have convinced themselves that everyone else is a heretic and therefore they do not have to subject themselves to anyone else's authority.

It's a heady feeling, that freedom. It's the same freedom that Martin Luther and King Henry VIII felt when they realized they no longer had to submit themselves to the rules of the Church. Those who followed them quickly discovered that same freedom.

It's the same freedom felt by many after Vatican II. For years they had been chafing against the Church's restrictions on their behavior:  no extramarital sex, no birth control, get up early on Sunday morning, fast during Lent, no red meat on Friday, confess your sins and do penance, etc. Suddenly within a few short years everything changed. One could now join the world, be happy, have fun, let his conscience be his guide...The Gates of Paradise had opened, and guess what? Tickets to enter were free!

The sedes too were chafing at the bit. It's a lot of work to deal with Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops who seem to have less faith than the average grandmother. It's a big headache to figure out what to do when the rules suddenly seem to have changed. One response is to simply flee. Cut off all ties with the heretics and go it alone.

The problem is that we are not commanded by Jesus to go it alone. We are commanded to preach to unbelievers and correct our fellow brethren who have fallen into error. This is not an easy task. People who are in error may be quite comfortable with that error and resent being told that they must abandon it. It's much easier to simply walk away...leave the playing field and just heckle from the sidelines. The problem is that once you move to the sidelines, you are no longer under the protection of the rules. Even if the referee is lousy, the rules still exist. The referee can be corrected. On the outside, the rules still exist, but there's no one to enforce them. No one to interpret them. No one to prevent others from enforcing and intrepreting the rules themselves. And gradually, logically, chaos ensues. Cliques form and splinter off, accusations of impropriety fly, and radicals appear with new ideas that seem attractive to the unaware. After a while, it seems better to be back on the playing field after all, even with the bad ref and the clumsy players.

Great quote, CM.

"For before Pope John, there were many supreme pontiffs who are now in hell. Nevertheless, the just and reasonable judgments that they made in the world are standing and approved in God's sight."

Indeed.  St. Celestine knew what he was doing when he ran away from this office!  Not an easy way to save your soul.

Are you saying that God revealed something to you about the state of dead popes?

From a post received:

 "Doubtless Catherine would yield to the judgment of the Church if it was discovered that any Pope ever fell from the Faith. If a Pope were ever to personally vanish into actual  formal heresy, and therefore ipso facto lose the Faith and office, which St. Robert Bellarmine and others said was theoretically possible (though he himself did not believe it would ever happen), only the Church could announce that fact bindingly.

"No individuals, be they lay or cleric of whatever rank,  or groups,  we are taught,  can ever presume to usurp the role of the Church in so weighty a matter."