Author Topic: SSPX, the Vatican, Fatima and the Theological Commision (Read 3950 times)

KofCTrad · « **on:** March 09, 2012, 10:06:18 AM »

One thing that sort of puzzles me but not totally because I understand Fatima is an extraordinary revelation and not directly tied to the Faith but a warning and prophecy. But nevertheless, if you're going to give preliminary requests, stipulations, demands, whatever before beginning talks with the usurpers in the Vatican why not really put their fannies to the fire, back them against the wall, and find out once and for all if they are who many suspect they are, usurpers.

Why not make a stipulation that the SSPX wants the Third Part of the secret that begins, "In Portugal the Dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc..." In order to insure the goodwill of the Romans. Surely, they have nothing to hide, right? They're legit, right? and Our Lady said it should be released to the whole world in 1960, right?

So what's the problem, RIGHT?

bernadette · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2012, 10:25:39 AM »

If the "Third Secret" were to be finally revealed it would take a great deal of the punch out of the SSPX...if you solve a mystery, what's left? Nothing. The third secret of Fatima has been a huge part of the preaching, prayer and rosary campaign in the SSPX. And the bottom line is that it is not an article of faith that any Catholic must believe in private revelation.

KofCTrad · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2012, 10:54:47 AM »

Quote from: bernadette

If the "Third Secret" were to be finally revealed it would take a great deal of the punch out of the SSPX...if you solve a mystery, what's left? Nothing. The third secret of Fatima has been a huge part of the preaching, prayer and rosary campaign in the SSPX. And the bottom line is that it is not an article of faith that any Catholic must believe in private revelation.

" it would take a great deal of the punch out of the SSPX.."

How do you figure that?

From all I've read and studied of it I've come to believe that it may actually use the words "anti-pope" and "evil council" in the text its self. That's why it's not released.

One night on Art Bell's radio show the topic of the third secret came up. People were calling up to guess what's in it. Malichi would confirm if something similar was in the secret. One person suggested that the secret foretold of, "a pope under the influence of Satan." Malichi answered, "Art, THAT SOUNDS VERY CLOSE TO IT." I'de love to find which interview that was. I'm not mis-remembering. I'm 98% certain that's the exact exchange. What could be "VERY CLOSE" to a pope under the influence of Satan? An anti-pope perhaps?

"Fr. Kramer revealed that he had spoken with an old Bavarian priest who was very well known to St. Padre Pio and was also a friend of Cardinal Ratzinger.

This priest told Fr. Kramer that Cardinal Ratzinger had informed him some years ago that the text of the Third Secret referred to “an evil Council” in the Church and a warning from heaven about the ѕυιcιdє of altering the liturgy.
When this information failed to materialise with the Vatican’s year 2000 publication of what it said was the entire Secret, this Bavarian priest, who had just concelebrated a Mass with Cardinal Ratzinger, asked him in the sacristy what had happened. The Cardinal admitted to him that not everything had been revealed.

This was astounding information which I had never heard before and it came from an authoritive source. These priests are not lying. They only repeat what they have heard from authoritive and absolutely trustworthy sources."

From:
http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/2009/09/target-scotland-fantastic-fatima-conference-thank-you-fr-gruner-thank-you-fr-kramer/

KofCTrad · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2012, 11:05:44 AM »

"But let me continue examining Fr. Kramer’s article. Having assured us that Ratzinger only used a “mental reservation” and was not lying, Fr. Kramer then relates to us the anecdote of a “seminary professor, who is a close friend of Pope John Paul II, and who also knows personally Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger” (p. 36), who, upon reading the Vatican version of the “Third Secret” on June 26, 2000, had the (very reasonable!) impression that this was not the Third Secret, for that would be impossible. So far, so good, but here comes the most interesting part:

And so he went to the Vatican, he visited Cardinal Ratzinger, and he confronted him. He did not mince his words. He said, “This is impossible! This cannot possibly be the entire Third Secret!” And he insisted that Ratzinger answer him yes or no. “Is this the whole thing? Is this the whole thing, or isn’t it? It cannot be; now you tell me!” Ratzinger admitted, “Truly, that was not all of it.” … He pressed on further for an answer, he would not back off. And he demanded, “What is in the Secret? If that’s not all of it, well, what is there?” Ratzinger’s answer makes it clear. There’s no longer any mystery why they have kept it hidden for so many years…. Ratzinger said that in the Third Secret, Our Lady warns that there will be an evil council. And She warned against the changes: She warned against making changes in the liturgy; changes in the Mass. This is explicitly set forth in the Third Secret.”

[The Fatima Crusader, Summer 2005 issue (no. 80), p. 36]

At this point, you should be asking yourself whether you’re waking or dreaming. Did Fr. Kramer just write that “Cardinal” Ratzinger himself has admitted that the Third Secret warned against an evil council and changes to be made to the Mass? In other words, did Ratzinger just admit that the Third Secret condemns Vatican II and the New Mass?

You’d expect Fr. Kramer to lose it at this point and condemn the pharisaical, blasphemous, heretical, deceptive, impious, and Fatima-hating Joseph Ratzinger in the strongest of terms! So Ratzinger knows the truth and deliberately hides it! He is covering up the true Third Secret and is continuing his complicity in the big Fatima cover-up and in building and maintaining the New Church! He knows that Our Lady condemns him, Fr. Joseph Ratzinger, and his wicked works! Having read The Devil’s Final Battle, one would think that this is the last straw Fr. Kramer needed to definitively convict Ratzinger as a pertinacious enemy of the Faith and of Fatima.

But what does Fr. Kramer do instead? He merely notes:

However, men like Cardinal Ratzinger believe that the word of the Second Vatican Council is equivalent to the word of God. They cannot believe that there was any evil in the Council. And so they choose not to believe the Message of Fatima. And this is why Cardinal Ratzinger made a suggestion that the apparition of the Lady of Fatima is something conjured up in the imagination of Sister Lucy.

[p. 36]

This is unbelievable! At long last, Fr. Kramer had all he needed to expose the fraud that is Ratzinger, and what does he do? He proceeds to find excuses for him! And lame ones at that! Ratzinger simply “cannot believe” that Vatican II is the council mentioned in the Third Secret? Is Fr. Kramer kidding?? And I suppose Ratzinger also sincerely “cannot believe” that the changes to be made to the Mass could refer to the “banal on-the-spot product” (Ratzinger’s own words) of the New Mass? If you can believe this, perhaps I could sell you my little 2001 KIA for a good price….

Fr. Kramer is acting as though Benedict XVI were in good faith about this, an utter absurdity if there ever was one. After all that he exposed about Ratzinger in the Devil’s Final Battle, the last thing you could say is that Ratzinger is “innocently misled” about all this.

Which brings me to another important point. What we just read here was the long-awaited admission by a high-ranking Vatican official that the Third Secret of Fatima, penned in the 1930’s, is about what we all more or less assumed it was about, namely, a heavenly warning against the wicked Second Vatican Council, the New Mass, and the loss of Faith resulting therefrom (cf. The Devil's Final Battle, pp. 32-33, 167-170). So, let me ask you something: how come this hasn’t made the biggest headlines in the Fatima Crusader and similar publications? This is, essentially, the story they were waiting for: the true content of the Third Secret! Why is it not the top story at www.fatima.org or at least in the pages of the Fatima Crusader? Why is this buried in the middle of a lengthy article in an issue opposing sedevacantism? Why have other similar publications not picked up on this (at least I'm not aware that they have)? This is practically the mother of all news stories, the smoking gun! Short of perhaps St. Pius X coming back to life and putting an end to the Novus Ordo church, this is the story they (and also we sedevacantists) had been waiting for!"

From:
http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/05Oct/oct7mdi.htm

KofCTrad · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2012, 11:11:54 AM »

From the Fatima Crusader Issue 92 May 2009

“The Secret Warned
Against Vatican Council II and the New Mass
An Exclusive Fatima Crusader Interview with Father Paul Kramer”

“...Question: Do you see a connection between the Third Secret of Fatima and the introduction of the New Mass?”

“[Fr. Kramer] Sister Lucy of Fatima, said that there would take place a diabolical disorientation in the Church. And there is nothing that could do more to bring that about than a liturgical revolution that would enshrine alien principles into a seemingly Catholic liturgy.
As a matter of fact, there is more substance to the question of a diabolical disorientation. I am referring to the part of the Third Secret of Fatima that has not yet been revealed. I know this to be a fact because I have personally spoken with a German theologian and a seminary Rector who is a longtime close fiend of Pope Benedict. When Pope Benedict was still Cardinal Ratzinger, around 1990 he revealed to his friend that in the Third Secret of Fatima Our Lady warns not to change the liturgy: literally, not to mix extraneous foreign elements into the Catholic liturgy. Now, of course, with the new Mass of Pope Paul VI, that is exactly what was done. Elements of Protestantism, both in symbolism and in the wording of the liturgy, were brought into and mixed into a Catholic framework to the extent that the makers of the new Rite flatly stated that this is no longer the Roman Rite, it is a new creation.”

“…Our Lady also warned that there would be an evil Council in the Church that would cause great scandal. And of course, it was the docuмents of Vatican II-the Constitution on the Liturgy-which gave the impetus for Pope Paul VI to reform the liturgy in such a disastrous manner that caused such a loss of faith and confusion in the Church.”

“…Now after this took place, the German theologian who I am referring to went back to the country in South America where he was Rector of a seminary and he explained to a young priest what Cardinal Ratzinger had related to him. And precisely when he related that Our Lady warned against changing the Mass and there would be an evil Council in the Church, they both of them saw a plume of smoke coming up from the floor. Now it was a marble floor. This could not be anything of a natural phenomenon. Both the young priest and the old German Rector were so impressed they drew up a dossier and sent it to Cardinal Ratzinger.”

“…The elderly German priest, Ratzinger’s long-time personal friend, took note of the fact that when this vision of the Third Secret was published it did not contain those things, those elements of the Third Secret that Cardinal Ratzinger had revealed to him nearly ten years earlier. The German priest -Father Dollinger- told me that this question was burning in his mind on the day he concelebrated with Cardinal Ratzinger. Father Dollinger said to me, “I confronted Cardinal Ratzinger to his face” And of course he asked Cardinal Ratzinger, “how can this be the entire Third Secret? Remember what you told me before?”
Cardinal Ratzinger was cornered. He didn’t know what to say so he blurted out to his friend in German, “Wirklich gebt das der etwas” which means “really there is something more there,” meaning there is something more in the Third Secret. The Cardinal stated this quite plainly.”

“Question: This is an amazing story. Is Father Dollinger a credible witness?

[Father Kramer] I can say this much: We’re talking about an elderly priest, a long-time personal friend of Pope Benedict, a man who was a long-time personal acquaintance of St. Pio of Piertrelcina [Padre Pio]. In fact, he told me he had gone to confession to Padre Pio 58 times. This is a man who for many years was the Rector of a seminary in South America; a man who is highly esteemed, who is of great reputation in the Church.
I would also point out that in the diocese where he worked what I have said about the Third Secret, what Cardinal Ratzinger revealed to him, was common knowledge among the young priests who were seminarians and deacons at the time this man was Rector. They all know the story that Cardinal Ratzinger had told him."
“As I have mentioned, they had even put together a dossier and sent it to Cardinal Ratzinger. So he is a man of great credibility, worthy of credence; a man of great seriousness who is not given over to making up fabulous stories, or exaggerating self-importance. The man had no need of such things; he’s a man of utmost credibility.”

bernadette · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2012, 12:54:33 PM »

Let me ask you this...has there ever been a time throughout history, among Catholics, where so much emphasis has been placed on a PRIVATE REVELATION as we see today regarding Fatima, particularly among sspx'ers? Or a time where a PRIVATE REVELATION has turned into what appears to be an industry?

Fatima is not the only prophecy to have given such warnings..yet I do not believe there has ever been the same amount of emphasis and attention paid to these such as there has been to Fatima.

Our Lady of La Salette for example.

"Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/lasalet.html

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2012, 01:14:06 PM »

Bernadette, are you saying you don't believe in Fatima? It is an apparition that is approved by the Church. Please correct me if that is not what you are saying.

I'm not an SSPXer yet believe in Fatima. I know that Raoul, who is a sede, used to deny Fatima but now accepts it. Most Trads believe in Fatima, from what I have observed.

Emerentiana · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:14:55 PM »

We all must remember that Paul VII changed the mass, not Ratsinger. He is the the 4th antipope to sit in the chair of Peter. He is only continuing and adding changes.
Once you understand this, you can understand what the Fatima Secret may have revealed.
Our Lady said at LaSalette "Rome will loose the faith and become the seat of Antichrist.
That happened when the conclave was interfered with after the death of John XX111, and the first antipope, Paul V11, took the chair of Peter.
The papal chair is empty, or occupied by an imposter.
Thats what the term sedevacantist means!
Its really not that hard to understand.

Sede Catholic · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:15:15 PM »

Fatima is definitely genuine.

Fatima has been approved of by Pope Benedict XV.

Fatima has been approved of by Pope Pius XI.

Fatima has been approved of by Pope Pius XII.

Pope Pius XII said: “The time for doubting Fatima has passed.”

We should not be surprised that the Antipopes of the satanic Vatican II sect have used Fatima for their own ends and distorted the truth about it.

Also, faux-traditionalists use Fatima as an excuse for their own treachery in not condemning the Antipopes.

They pretend that, “If we can persuade him to see the truth, our hero in the Vatican will realize what he needs to do to save the Church…”

Mr. Nicholas Gruner and other invalidly ordained “priests” pretend that Antipope Benedict XVI is just confused and simply needs to see things more clearly.

It is all evil lies.

“Pope” Benedict XVI is an invalidly elected Antipope.

He is a Heretic and is therefore not a member of the Catholic Church, and so cannot have been validly elected Pope.

Also, he is clearly trying to destroy the Catholic Church.

Benedict XVI claimed that male prostitutes can use contraception.

Benedict XVI has written books filled with Heresies.

Benedict XVI has even pretended that Saint John did not write the Gospel of Saint John.

Benedict XVI has even pretended that Saint John did not write the Gospel of Saint John.
That is an evil Heresy claimed by Benedict XVI in his book “Jesus of Nazareth” Part I (A.D. 1997) . p.226-227.
By proclaiming this vile Heresy, Benedict XVI incurred automatic Excommunication.

He has spent long years actively promoting Heresy, defending Heretics, and covering up for “priests” who Sodomize children.

Compare these evil, worthless, sɛҳuąƖly active garbage, with the validly ordained and very holy Catholic priests of the CMRI.

The Restoration of the Church will come from Fatima and other means approved of by good Catholic Popes.

It will not come from Antipope Benedict XVI.

Pray the Joyful, Sorrowful, and Glorious Mysteries of the Rosary to Our Lady of Fatima to Restore the Catholic Church.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:22:10 PM »

I think you mean Paul VI, Emerentiana.

But yeah, Paul VI: the worst ever.

Sede Catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:37:08 PM »

We can be confidant that the genuine Third Secret of Fatima concerns matters such as the Great Apostasy, and the Antipopes, and the
lack of transubstantiation in the idolatrous Novus Ordo which has replaced the 1570 A.D. Traditional Latin Mass.

bernadette · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:56:17 PM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Bernadette, are you saying you don't believe in Fatima? It is an apparition that is approved by the Church. Please correct me if that is not what you are saying.

I'm not an SSPXer yet believe in Fatima. I know that Raoul, who is a sede, used to deny Fatima but now accepts it. Most Trads believe in Fatima, from what I have observed.

No. I am not saying that I don't believe in Fatima. I do. But I also believe that the message of Fatima is no longer relevant for our times....I believe that the consecration has been made satisfactorily, and I believe that the SSPX continues to promote the Fatima lore as a sort of excuse or explanation for the ills of the world we live in. I just think that the focus is over the top. I was with the SSPX for nearly seven years and it is treated as though it is a doctrine...but the truth is, that no Catholic need believe in any private revelation if he so chooses. I would prefer keeping emphasis on the faith, not private revelation.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:00:19 PM »

Ok, bernadette. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Of course, while I rarely disagree with you, I don't believe Fatima is done with, nor do I believe the Consecration has been done. I agree that emphasis on Faith and Doctrine is more important, of course.

credo12 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:10:03 PM »

Quote from: bernadette

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
Bernadette, are you saying you don't believe in Fatima? It is an apparition that is approved by the Church. Please correct me if that is not what you are saying.

I'm not an SSPXer yet believe in Fatima. I know that Raoul, who is a sede, used to deny Fatima but now accepts it. Most Trads believe in Fatima, from what I have observed.

No. I am not saying that I don't believe in Fatima. I do. But I also believe that the message of Fatima is no longer relevant for our times....I believe that the consecration has been made satisfactorily, and I believe that the SSPX continues to promote the Fatima lore as a sort of excuse or explanation for the ills of the world we live in. I just think that the focus is over the top. I was with the SSPX for nearly seven years and it is treated as though it is a doctrine...but the truth is, that no Catholic need believe in any private revelation if he so chooses. I would prefer keeping emphasis on the faith, not private revelation.

I agree with Bernadette on many of these points. I disagree with you regarding that the consecration. Grunerite Fatimism is strong in SSPX circles. Fatima tends to be treated as doctrine and not a private revelation. I do believe in the messages of Fatima.

credo12 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:10:58 PM »

Quote

I don't believe Fatima is done with, nor do I believe the Consecration has been done. I agree that emphasis on Faith and Doctrine is more important, of course.

I agree with you, SS.