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Author Topic: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation  (Read 2140 times)

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Offline Mr G

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SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
« on: May 14, 2025, 01:52:57 PM »
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  • Matters Arising: Conditional Confirmation | District of Great Britain

    Here is the conclusion:

    "The purpose of this article is not to analyse the failings of the liturgical revolution, but simply to consider whether or not one is justified in seeking the conditional repetition of Confirmation according to the old rite. In answer to the question posed, we can reply: no, unless you have positive grounds to doubt that your specific Confirmation was invalid when it happened. Otherwise, be at peace, and accept that there are many things that God does not expect you to know with dogmatic certainty in this life. To follow the safer path is to follow the one indicated by objective principles laid down by the Church long ago."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #1 on: May 14, 2025, 02:00:25 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Also a false dilemma.  Who educated this guy?

    We can never know the validity of a Sacrament we receive with DOGMATIC certainty, but moral certainty is required, and there are many reasons why that cannot be had with the Novus Ordo Sacraments, one of them being that it's very unlikely that the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration is valid ... and then you add to it the tendency of many Conciliar "bishops" to tinker with the form (that's especially true for Confirmation ... as I've heard bishops say, "Be a soldier for Christ", for instance) and at one point they were messing with the oils themselves.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #2 on: May 14, 2025, 02:18:42 PM »
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  • Not sure if that's just a straight-out blunder in Logic 101 and Sacramental Theology or it's an attempt to use strawman gas-lighting.

    So the people who disagree with us insist (strawman) upon having dogmatic certainty about the validity of Sacraments, and we can never have that.

    Uhm, no.  We insist upon MORAL certainty regarding the Sacraments and we are entitled to have it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #3 on: May 14, 2025, 02:31:42 PM »
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  • Also in the link ... :facepalm:

    Quote
    Considering the Sacrament of Confirmation specifically, we must remember that, on the one hand,  it is one of the sacraments which imprint a character upon the soul, and which thus cannot be repeated absolutely without sacrilege. On the other hand, it is not one of those which are strictly necessary for salvation. Thus to be justified in receiving it again conditionally ...

    So he's claiming that because Confirmation is not strictly necessary for salvation, to be justified in receiving it ... different criteria apply.

    Nonsense.  If you have any kind of reasonable / positive doubt whatsoever, conditional administration may certainy be JUSTIFIED.  Maybe not "strictly required", but certainly justified.

    So it's also been part of the propaganda on this point to overemphasis the requirements of administering Sacraments conditionally because ... oh, it would be a sacrilege to confer these Sacraments again.  Yes, but, ahem, THAT IS WHY THE CONDITIONAL FORMULA IS USED.  Consequently, there's no risk of scacrilege whatsoever in using the conditional formula.  What Trent was saying is that you cannot go around willy-nilly conditionally readministering Sacraments to anybody with a pulse, i.e. for any negative doubt whasoever.  "Father, what if my Baptism was invalid.  Please give me conditional Baptism."  ... although even there, if the individual were experiencing some traumatic crisis of faith, scrupulosity, despair, etc. ... it might be justified to do it for those reasons along, but one should do it privately.

    But any even moderately legitimate reason would justify it.  Even the SV priests have exaggerated the requirements for conditional administration, where they have to engage in some quasi-thorough investigation, almost as if you were researching a marriage annulment.  Utter nonsense.  There's no such requirement.  It suffices that it's well known that there's a tendency in the Novus Ordo to tinker with Sacraments, adlib the form, mess with the matter, etc.  That by itself suffices.  You are not required to spend resources and even money that you don't have to do investigations that are likely impossible anyway to reach a conclusion on since most of these situations took places years and even decades ago.

    This is more than adequate:  "Novus Ordo has this attitude about messing with Sacraments.  I don't have time to research this case and souls have more important needs I should be attending to."

    THEN, however, with Holy Orders, for instance ... there's ABSOLUTELY some serious positive doubt about them.  That in turn leads to serious positive doubt about NO Confirmations just due to the doubt about whether the NO bishops are valid, and then even if the NO priests are invalid (having been ordained by NO bishops).  Even if you could make a case that a priest with authority could validly confirm, we're not even 100% sure he's a valid priest.

    Probably the one case where you wouldn't just administer the Sacraments without further inquiry would be people who had received the in the Eastern Rites, or, say, a legit Orthodox Rite (vs. the weird auto-cephalous ones nobody can even trace) ... with the one exception where if people had been baptized as adults, I've seen the old "hair baptisms" even in Eastern Rite, where they just poor some water on someone's thick hair and you're not entirely sure if it even touched their skin.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #4 on: May 14, 2025, 02:37:38 PM »
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  • Matters Arising: Conditional Confirmation | District of Great Britain

    Here is the conclusion:

    "The purpose of this article is not to analyse the failings of the liturgical revolution, but simply to consider whether or not one is justified in seeking the conditional repetition of Confirmation according to the old rite. In answer to the question posed, we can reply: no, unless you have positive grounds to doubt that your specific Confirmation was invalid when it happened. Otherwise, be at peace, and accept that there are many things that God does not expect you to know with dogmatic certainty in this life. To follow the safer path is to follow the one indicated by objective principles laid down by the Church long ago."
    This is grounds for *possibly* red-lighting the new-sspx.  They just keep inching closer and closer.  It proves that the whole +Huonder infiltration was not an accident, but a conscious decision to ignore canon law and to treat the new rite as valid-until-proven-otherwise.  I'm tired of their lies and sacramental game-playing.  May God smite them down so that those decent sspx Trads can abandon ship.


    Online jersey60

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #5 on: May 14, 2025, 02:40:26 PM »
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  • I was Confirmed in the early 70's, I made the decision to get conditionally confirmed, with the approval of my Traditional Priest, in 2023 and glad I did. At least I now know the Sacrament "stick" so to speak

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #6 on: May 14, 2025, 02:48:04 PM »
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  • This is grounds for *possibly* red-lighting the new-sspx.  They just keep inching closer and closer.  It proves that the whole +Huonder infiltration was not an accident, but a conscious decision to ignore canon law and to treat the new rite as valid-until-proven-otherwise.  I'm tired of their lies and sacramental game-playing.  May God smite them down so that those decent sspx Trads can abandon ship.

    Yes, I agree.  See, I can tolerate someone who SINCERELY concludes that there's no doubt based on X, Y, or Z.  I might disagree with them, and not receive Sacraments from them, but I can't and won't impose my conscience on them.

    What I absolutely CANNOT stand is where they have ulterior (usually political) motives to want a certain outcome and then butcher logic and principles however they need to in order to get that outcome.  That's absolutely and utterly reprehensible, and some of the SSPX leadership making these decisions could easily lose their souls over it.  If they are wrong, but even if they are not wrong, but are just not intellectually honest ... if some souls don't get valid Sacraments due to this nonsense, they commit grave sin and are liable to damnation over it.  Being a priest, especially a superior, isn't all about being respected and honored.  It comes with great responsibility.

    We ALL KNOW what their motivation is.  "If we say that the NO Sacraments are doubtful, we can never reach an agreement with them or have any cooperation with them."  So let's engage in whatever intellectual and theological gymnastics we need to in order to prevent that outcome.  Instead of letting the TRUTH lead them where it may.

    On top of that if it's a matter of "souls could be lost if I'm wrong and I am not entirely sure" vs. "let's play footsie with Bergoglio and now Prevost", so +Fellay can get a red hat and we can get enough seminarians to justify the $50 million price tag, and "we can't be like those eeeevil sedevacantists"", and you opt for your political nonsense while harming or at least endangering souls?

    I agree with you that it's absolutely deplorable and it objectively constitutes grave sin for which they are liable to hellfire if they're wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #7 on: May 14, 2025, 02:54:42 PM »
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  • I was Confirmed in the early 70's, I made the decision to get conditionally confirmed, with the approval of my Traditional Priest, in 2023 and glad I did. At least I now know the Sacrament "stick" so to speak

    Yeah, I was confirmed by "Bishop" Pilla of Cleveland (longtime head of USCCB) in 1982, but then received conditional from Bishop Willaimson before enterining STAS at Winona.

    HIGHLY SUSPECT of having been a very high ranking memeber of the lavender mafia, and even looks strikingly like Liberace ...




    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #8 on: May 14, 2025, 04:24:28 PM »
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  • Matters Arising: Conditional Confirmation | District of Great Britain

    Here is the conclusion:

    "The purpose of this article is not to analyse the failings of the liturgical revolution, but simply to consider whether or not one is justified in seeking the conditional repetition of Confirmation according to the old rite. In answer to the question posed, we can reply: no, unless you have positive grounds to doubt that your specific Confirmation was invalid when it happened. Otherwise, be at peace, and accept that there are many things that God does not expect you to know with dogmatic certainty in this life. To follow the safer path is to follow the one indicated by objective principles laid down by the Church long ago."
    I got conditionally confirmed not that long ago with the SSPX, I just said I had doubts about my confirmation and would like a conditional one, and I got it. I never told them the reasons why I had doubts.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #9 on: May 14, 2025, 07:48:20 PM »
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  • Yeah, I was confirmed by "Bishop" Pilla of Cleveland (longtime head of USCCB) in 1982 ... HIGHLY SUSPECT of having been a very high ranking memeber of the lavender mafia ...


    Fr. Pilla was a very odd fellow.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #10 on: May 14, 2025, 08:36:36 PM »
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  • Fr. Pilla was a very odd fellow.

    I served "Mass" for him occasionally in the early 1980s.


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #11 on: May 14, 2025, 10:57:20 PM »
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  • Strong simple argument. If pure OLIVE oil isn't used for Confirmation, or whatever sacrament that soul would have received is probably invalid. Doubtful.
    neoSspx is getting careless, looks like it.
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/sspx/comments/w8faye/conditional_confirmation/

    "...AveMaria17
    3y ago

    Yes speak to the priest, I had conditional confirmation. The doubt being sometimes dioceses don’t use 100% olive oil for the chrism which invalidates the sacrament so there is sufficient doubt for any NO Catholic..."


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    The matter matters. Also, the symbolism of olive oil is excellent: Our Lord's Agony in the Garden of Olives; the oil has many healing properties( parable of the Good Samaritan) it must be crushed in its production ( just like wheat for hosts must be crushed), it gives off light when burning (Light of the world) Children of light. As food it gives nourishment and general health. It softens stiff materials ( conversion). It is a clear substance (symbol of purity, innocence) . It spreads ( Gospel, sets a higher moral standard in civilizations, do not put your faith under a bushel ) etc.
    Olive oil has been used in the Church for 2000 years +, so it is a venerable tradition. 


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    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #12 on: May 15, 2025, 02:25:10 AM »
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  • To cut through any arguments on this subject I usually say "If the sacrament was perfect before, then the only possible result of changing it, is to render it imperfect"


    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #13 on: May 15, 2025, 04:13:48 AM »
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  • According to st Vincent ferrer those without the sacrament of confirmation will not persevere under the antichrist. This is serious stuff,
    Vatican 2 was worse than both WW1 and WW2 combined.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 
    Tried 6,000,000 pushups, only got to 271K

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX now discourages Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #14 on: May 15, 2025, 05:37:40 AM »
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  • To cut through any arguments on this subject I usually say "If the sacrament was perfect before, then the only possible result of changing it, is to render it imperfect"
    That could be, but not necessarily.

    What Fr. Wathen says in his book "Who Shall Ascend?" about the NO ordinations, is true also for NO confirmations.......

    "It is not our purpose in these pages to decide whether the new ordination rite is invalid, though, as we shall see, the argument is substantial enough that we are bound to allow for this possibility. Furthermore, we must see the issue in the context of the total redefinition  and reconstitution of the Church, such as was set in motion at the  Council. In view of the fact that, since the Council, the priest's role  has been in the process of being modified, as we said, to that of a Protestant presbyter, there is every reason to deduce that the new  ordination rite sabotages the Sacrament of Holy Orders according to  the explicit program and purposes of those now in power. (The reader is reminded that the very doubt which this change creates serves the malevolent purposes of the conspirators as well as does the certitude of invalidity, because from the doubt flows controversy, disagreements, factions, confusion, and disquietude among the clergy and the faithful.)"
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse