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Author Topic: SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism  (Read 7703 times)

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Offline 008

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SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
« on: December 31, 2009, 09:39:59 AM »
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  • An interesting summary From Angelqueen... (There Sedevacantism is foolishly BLEEPED.) One CS Gibson writes

    Quote
    Getting scared here, because that sounds awefully close to the SSPX position which I embrace


    Sedeprivationists do not believe that Pope Benedict has actual jurisdiction over the Church. The SSPX believes that the Pope has jurisdiction. The difference is night and day.

    The sedeprivationists have managed to find a theological "trick" for the problem of restoring the papacy (all the Pope has to do is become theologically acceptable to them), which is a problem that does not seem to concern the s.e.d.e.v.a.c.a.n.t.i.s.t.s (at least those who have not elected their own "popes").

    they claim the occupant of the chair of Peter has technical jurisdiction to keep the chair warm for a "real" one to come along. Sort of like the role of the camerlengo after a pope's death

    I have met Bishop McKenna and enjoyed his hospitality. Though I do not take the BLEEP! view of things, I would most definitely vouch for him as a kind and good man and very prayerful. The community of nuns he has established seem very prayerful as well and quite normal. Unlike so many other groups he has no pretensions to grandeur.

    Though irregular his consecration is certainly valid. As I recall he was consecrated in 1986 by ML Guerard des Lauriers OP ( a former professor at the Lateran University, and Econe and the principal author of the famous "Breve Esame Critico" of the Novus Ordo Missae. Guerard himself was consecrated in 1981 by Archbishop Thuc, there are photos of it, and a brief correspondence with Cardinal Ratzinger ensued in which the then Cardinal wrote to Thuc asking him to desist from consecrations and to ask Guerard, and Carmona whom he had also consecrated, "to come to their senses." It is worthy of note that these seem to be the only Thuc consecrations which Rome took seriously, apart from the Palmar de Troya fiasco.

    Guerard des Lauriers is remembered as a distinguished, though somewhat eccentric professor whose lectures went over the heads of most of his students. He was always a very 'Integriste" Catholic and was shocked by Vatican II and the liturgical reform, and with Archbishop Lefebvre, the Abbe de Nantes, the Abbe Coache etc, was part of the early French resistance to the conciliar reforms. In fact it was Fr Guerard des Lauriers who persuaded the Archbishop to return to the 62 missal at Christmas 1969. Until then Monsigneur Lefebvre had been saying the 65 rite.

    Being very much of the Roman School of theology and taking an extremely high view of the infallibility of papal and conciliar docuмents, he reached the conclusion that the wording of Dignitatis Humanae fulfilled the requirements for an infallible definition, but that as the content contradicted the traditional doctrine the only conclusion could be that Vatican II was somehow defective and not a genuine council of the Church. To explain this he came up with the theory that Paul VI was not properly a Pope owing to a defect in his intention to accept the Papal office at the time of his election, and thus he did not receive the 'form' of the Papacy, but remained only its 'matter', to wit, the legitimately designated electee of the conclave.

    GdL's ideas are somewhat related to what one might call the "Dominican School" on the question "de papa haeretico", ie those of Cajetan, Billuart and Garrigou-Lagrange all of whom held that an heretical Pope did not immediately lose the office until some declaration of the Church was made. Though Billuart and Garrigou-Lagrange took the view that the Pope would retain jurisdiction, even as a heretic, Guerard des Laurier's theory is that even jurisdiction would be lost in so far as it concerns the supernatural aspect of the Church, but that in so far as the Church is a legal entity in a natural sense the material succession of pontiffs would continue until such a time as one returned to the faith at which point he would receive the 'form' of the Papacy. Presumably this event would be known by the repudiation of Dignitatis Humanae and the Novus Ordo Missae, though Guerard seems not to have worked this through fully.

    As far as I know Guerard des Lauriers was not primarily concerned with the questions of obedience or schism which most latter day BLEEPS! seem to be obsessed with in the battle of words with the SSPX. He also took the view that the faithful in order to receive the sacraments could assist at an 'Una cuм' mass at least occasionally. A view repudiated by most BLEEPS! it would seem.

    The primary source for all this information is Sodalitium the journal of the Istituto Mater Boni Consilii. It is available in French and Italian, and ---a rarity in the trad world--is, though polemical, refreshingly polite in debates with others.

    In addition to being influential in the founding of the Istituto, GdL was also a founder of the Dominicans of the Fraternite St Vincent Ferrier of Chemere-le-Roi, who have been reconciled with Rome since 1988.


    Offline SJB

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: 008
    they claim the occupant of the chair of Peter has technical jurisdiction to keep the chair warm for a "real" one to come along.


    I'm not a sedeprivationist, but this is wrong as I understand it. It is a material sucession of popes and does not have anything to do with some sort of "technical jurisdiction" as you claim.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline 008

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 12:48:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    ...as you claim... but this is wrong as I understand it. It is a material sucession of popes and does not have anything to do with some sort of "technical jurisdiction" as you claim.


    I don't claim anything beyond it being interesting. But you are misreading him essentially. He wrote: "did not receive the 'form' of the Papacy, but remained only its 'matter', to wit, the legitimately designated electee of the conclave. "

    Now give someone else a chance. Don't hog;  you seem to misread and generally appear confused in theology (no offense).

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 01:42:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: 008
    Quote
    ...as you claim... but this is wrong as I understand it. It is a material sucession of popes and does not have anything to do with some sort of "technical jurisdiction" as you claim.


    I don't claim anything beyond it being interesting. But you are misreading him essentially. He wrote: "did not receive the 'form' of the Papacy, but remained only its 'matter', to wit, the legitimately designated electee of the conclave. "

    Now give someone else a chance. Don't hog;  you seem to misread and generally appear confused in theology (no offense).


    Thanks, 008.  :smile:

    Quote
    GdL's ideas are somewhat related to what one might call the "Dominican School" on the question "de papa haeretico", ie those of Cajetan, Billuart and Garrigou-Lagrange all of whom held that an heretical Pope did not immediately lose the office until some declaration of the Church was made.


    I don't think this is correct. They are not related as I understand it.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 01:49:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    He also took the view that the faithful in order to receive the sacraments could assist at an 'Una cuм' mass at least occasionally. A view repudiated by most sedvacantists it would seem.


    I don't think this is correct either. The minority opinion is anti-una cuм and many of those within that minority recognize that it ultimately is a matter of conscience.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Caraffa

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 01:57:03 PM »
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    Being very much of the Roman School of theology


    Wasn't the Roman School dominated by the Jesuits though?
    Pray for me, always.

    Offline Raoul76

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 11:20:43 PM »
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  • Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline roscoe

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #7 on: January 01, 2010, 12:13:49 AM »
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  • I do not know Thuc but the Church has also declared some Popes to be anti-popes because of their actions-- irrespective of their seemingly Orthodox words.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline 008

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 10:23:30 AM »
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  • Some exegetes!

    Garrigou-Lagrange, quoted by Richard Ibranyi, who seriously (the latter) considers himself to be the Elias prophet of the Last Days spoken of in the Apocalypse when he's not on his "meds".  And the Dimond brothers who have been brought up by the DA on racketeering (racket---eering, yes indeed) charges after a  man alleges they  bilked him out of over a million dollars (!!)  from them.

    I'll go with Garrigou-Lagrange, thank you,  over any psychotics or racketeers -- Garrigou-Lagrange knew that Catholic principles must be interpreted by other Catholic principles.


    Offline 008

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    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 10:54:43 AM »
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  • When the Racketeers and the psychotics say "Outside the Church there is no salvation" what they mean is that  they are the very last Catholics in the whole world (though they broke off from each other too, hurling the name HERETIC against each other!)

    Yes they are the Church and outside of them $$$$$$$$$$$$ you are a heretic on the way to everlasting Hell.


    $

    Offline SJB

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    SSPX, ML Guerard des Lauriers OP, Sedeprivationism
    « Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 05:53:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange
    First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death.


    Mike, can you tell me when either one of these examples actually was "outside the Church". A validly baptised infant is a member of the Church, if he dies before the age of reason, he is saved. If he lives past that age, and is truly in good faith, he is only then a material heretic and still can be in a state of grace. He is not of course, a member of the Church, as he is at some point legally assumed to be outside the Church, even if he is inculpable.

    Remenber, we are saying he actually is in good faith as an individual and NOT saying all protestants are to be assumed to be in good faith.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline 008

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    « Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 08:32:19 AM »
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  • A New Years Card for the Dimond Brothers:

    The purist Feeneyite Sedes especially here get very confused, so one must be delicate with them lest they blow a gasket and go to Hell for schiz-pride:

    1. The Ordinary Magisterium (daily, or ordinary teaching)  is only infallible when it repeats infallible teaching of the Past, else it would have been redundant for Vatican I (one) to very carefully delineate the parameters and conditions for infallibility. If the OM were always infallible, who would need definitions per Vatican I? An enycyclical would suffice.

    2. Vatican II makes a mess of the Ordinary teaching---due to compromise ambiguous forumulas--- but because it is mostly OM it can be corrected as such (unlike that which is defined as infallible) esp now that we have seen the fruits.

    Paul VI specifically disavowed infallibility.

    3. As for Ecclesia...Nullas, the Church fleshed out its meaning---and what it DID NOT---mean over time as her Doctors and theologians asked more precise questions regarding its meaning.

    4. The Dimond Sciz's and others will not accept the above but must always throw hissy fits when they see Truth, angry that they were not made Popes and doctors of the Faith (though Richard Ibranyi made himself a prophet, Elias)

    5. It is a pride-possession thing.

    Offline Clovis

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    « Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 01:17:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: 008
    Some exegetes!

    Garrigou-Lagrange, quoted by Richard Ibranyi, who seriously (the latter) considers himself to be the Elias prophet of the Last Days spoken of in the Apocalypse when he's not on his "meds".  And the Dimond brothers who have been brought up by the DA on racketeering (racket---eering, yes indeed) charges after a  man alleges they  bilked him out of over a million dollars (!!)  from them.

    I'll go with Garrigou-Lagrange, thank you,  over any psychotics or racketeers -- Garrigou-Lagrange knew that Catholic principles must be interpreted by other Catholic principles.



    Thats not the worst...Richard Ibryani has said terrible things about the little flower and St Thomas Aquinas...The man lacks any piety.

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 07:18:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: 008
    1. The Ordinary Magisterium (daily, or ordinary teaching)  is only infallible when it repeats infallible teaching of the Past, else it would have been redundant for Vatican I (one) to very carefully delineate the parameters and conditions for infallibility.


    Where did you learn this?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 07:29:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange
    First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death.


    Mike, can you tell me when either one of these examples actually was "outside the Church". A validly baptised infant is a member of the Church, if he dies before the age of reason, he is saved. If he lives past that age, and is truly in good faith, he is only then a material heretic and still can be in a state of grace. He is not of course, a member of the Church, as he is at some point legally assumed to be outside the Church, even if he is inculpable.

    Remenber, we are saying he actually is in good faith as an individual and NOT saying all protestants are to be assumed to be in good faith.


    Mike, did you miss this? I would like to hear your answer.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil