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Author Topic: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?  (Read 2853 times)

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Offline Against the Heresies

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Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2021, 11:53:30 PM »
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    • The danger does not come directly, but indirectly from Cardinal Schönborn. It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.
    Vienna may be a big city, but in some ways it is also just a small village. The important figures in politics, business and the church are well known to each other or even friends (and, of course, they all are liberal and politically left-wing). It’s not difficult for the Cardinal to call in a favor.
    These considerations have not the least to do with timidity. Of course you can “courageously”, loudly and provocatively proclaim the catholic teachings to the Freemasons in power, but one will get then very fast problems with the justice. The registered association of the SSPX will be dissolved and all activities of the SSPX, then stigmatized as “extreme association” will be forbidden. (Perhaps one or the other must also go to prison. But that the good God will then send an angel for such foolish “courage” to free the prisoners, as it happened with St. Peter, is not so sure.)
    “Be ye therefore wise as serpents” (Mt 10,16).

    The video that Gloria.tv linked to the article doesn’t show actual footage or even the SSPX. It’s from 2016. Here is the link to the original video, actually on the website of the Minoritenkirche: http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #16 on: July 02, 2021, 08:17:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Against the Heresies on July 01, 2021, 11:53:30 PM
    The danger does not come directly, but indirectly from Cardinal Schönborn. It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.
    Vienna may be a big city, but in some ways it is also just a small village. The important figures in politics, business and the church are well known to each other or even friends (and, of course, they all are liberal and politically left-wing). It’s not difficult for the Cardinal to call in a favor.
    These considerations have not the least to do with timidity. Of course you can “courageously”, loudly and provocatively proclaim the catholic teachings to the Freemasons in power, but one will get then very fast problems with the justice. The registered association of the SSPX will be dissolved and all activities of the SSPX, then stigmatized as “extreme association” will be forbidden. (Perhaps one or the other must also go to prison. But that the good God will then send an angel for such foolish “courage” to free the prisoners, as it happened with St. Peter, is not so sure.)
    “Be ye therefore wise as serpents” (Mt 10,16).

    The video that Gloria.tv linked to the article doesn’t show actual footage or even the SSPX. It’s from 2016. Here is the link to the original video, actually on the website of the Minoritenkirche: http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm

    It's sad to think that the Novus Ordo hierarchy will want to persecute the SSPX on the pretext that they are Catholic. Do you think that the Mass as celebrated by the SSPX there will be well-attended? From the video linked to in your above post, it's looks like the TLM has already been celebrated there, but maybe not on a regular basis.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #17 on: July 02, 2021, 08:19:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Against the Heresies on July 01, 2021, 11:53:30 PM
    It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.

    Don't worry, the SSPX has purged itself of it's "disobedient" past. They stopped selling any controversial books, and stopped being so "negative". Now they look for the positives in Pope Francis, Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo. Now they work with Conciliar bishops every chance they get...

    Any priests who said anything "problematic" are no longer part of the SSPX -- so the SSPX would be instantly cleared of any suspicion of wrongdoing or wrongthink. If anything, it would backfire, showing that the SSPX wants no part of "wrongthink" or political incorrectness.

    What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #18 on: July 02, 2021, 08:27:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on July 02, 2021, 08:19:53 AM
    Don't worry, the SSPX has purged itself of it's "disobedient" past. They stopped selling any controversial books, and stopped being so "negative". Now they look for the positives in Pope Francis, Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo. Now they work with Conciliar bishops every chance they get...

    Any priests who said anything "problematic" are no longer part of the SSPX -- so the SSPX would be instantly cleared of any suspicion of wrongdoing or wrongthink. If anything, it would backfire, showing that the SSPX wants no part of "wrongthink" or political incorrectness.

    What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
    True.
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    Offline Against the Heresies

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #19 on: July 02, 2021, 10:11:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 02, 2021, 08:17:43 AM
    Do you think that the Mass as celebrated by the SSPX there will be well-attended?
    The branch in Vienna is not new, but the Minoritenkirche only serves as a replacement for the previous chapel. So the same number of faithful will attend Holy Mass as before, I think around 140 faithful on sundays.


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    From the video linked to in your above post, it's looks like the TLM has already been celebrated there, but maybe not on a regular basis.
    Correct. There has already occasionally been celebrated the traditional Mass in the Minoritenkirche, but not by the SSPX.
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    Offline Against the Heresies

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #20 on: July 02, 2021, 02:13:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on July 02, 2021, 08:19:53 AM
    What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
    I understand what you are getting at and to a certain extent I share this assessment. I have been associated with the SSPX for over 30 years and I know its development very well (at least in Europe).
     
    In order to get in trouble with the state (at least in Austria) in this day and age, it is already enough to quote the Holy Scriptures (about ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or the role of women, for example). And, of course, one can always bring old quotes to badmouth the breeding ground or the mindset of the SSPX in public. The unproven accusation of having a proximity to National Socialism is a significant problem in Austria (and Germany). Leftists and liberals like to use this to damage opponents in the long term.
     
    To make one thing clear: This is not my view, I am just trying to give (American) readers a bit of an idea of the problem. By acquiring this church, the SSPX is likely to unnecessarily and unfairly run into problems that could easily have been avoided by choosing a less significant and central church.
    If one wants to avoid these problems as far as possible, this will only be possible through reprehensible compromises with the spirit of the times. Unfortunately, Fr. Wegner has been the prior of Vienna for a year, so this should not be so difficult for him.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #21 on: July 02, 2021, 02:23:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Against the Heresies on July 02, 2021, 10:11:49 AM
    The branch in Vienna is not new, but the Minoritenkirche only serves as a replacement for the previous chapel. So the same number of faithful will attend Holy Mass as before, I think around 140 faithful on sundays.
    140 people can't pay the maintenance on that Church, it is not even close. You'd need 4000+ people.

    That "giveaway" is like someone giving me a 100 foot yacht that I am not permitted to sell. Very few people can even afford just the dockage fees ($400,000 to $1,500,000 per year), let alone the 400 gallons per hour it consumes in diesel fuel.
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    Offline Against the Heresies

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #22 on: July 02, 2021, 02:30:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 02, 2021, 02:23:30 PM
    140 people can't pay the maintenance on that Church, it is not even close. You'd need 4000+ people.
    True.
    That's why I said earlier that the financial burden is gigantic. And that's another reason why this church doesn't fit for the SSPX.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #23 on: July 02, 2021, 05:48:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Against the Heresies on July 02, 2021, 02:30:45 PM
    True.
    That's why I said earlier that the financial burden is gigantic. And that's another reason why this church doesn't fit for the SSPX.
    Not even with the Jaidhofer Foundation right there?
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    Offline Against the Heresies

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #24 on: July 02, 2021, 10:41:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 02, 2021, 05:48:48 PM
    Not even with the Jaidhofer Foundation right there?
    Since I am not the chief financial officer of the SSPX, I can of course only make an educated guess:

    The Jaidhofer Foundation (actually the "Jaidhofer Private Foundation St. Josef and Marcellus") is not in a position to do so either:

    1) There is a very clear mission of the foundation. This provides that only the annual income is available, the assets themselves remain untouched.

    2) There are already countless projects that are supported from these annual earnings, not only here in Austria (e.g. the expensive renovation of the Jaidhof castle), but worldwide. In particular, the very expensive seminary in Dillwyn should be mentioned here. Already now the projects (which are predominantly completely inappropriate for the actual emergency situation in the church) exceed by far the possibilities of the foundation.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #25 on: September 16, 2021, 07:14:17 AM »
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    • Evidently, the SSPX has now moved into the Minorite church in Vienna. I found a Tablet article (a very liberal newsource) published yesterday that says that the local bishop won't be able to have any say or control over this church (fortunately). Hopefully the SSPX won't want to collaborate with the local diocese, as they do in other dioceses around the world.

    Historic Viennese church given to Lefebvrists (thetablet.co.uk)

    Here's an Eponymous Flower article about the SSPX recent move to this church, by Roberto de Mattei (not a fan of Mattei, but the article seems okay):

    The Eponymous Flower: SSPX Acquires Minorite Church In Vienna — An Old Center of Resistance and Restoration
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: SSPX is granted Minoritenkirche church in Vienna?
    « Reply #26 on: September 16, 2021, 04:44:25 PM »
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    • This is good. Hopefully the SSPX Priory for Austria has the means to support the upkeep of the church. Provided that is the case, this has to be positive, challenging the Graf von Schonborn, a man of ever flexible views, in his lair. Even the mildest traditionalism of a doctrinal and social variety (the Cardinal is himself liturgically conservative as far as Novus Ordo only Conciliar bishops go) will provide a challenge. Chancellor Kurz is adequately conservative so I don't him providing the support needed for a hate crime prosecution (even if there is an independent prosecutor, a hostile government would find way to making the hate crime prosecution fail). I also don't think the Archbishop of Vienna is the sort of ideologue to wage war on the SSPX. I see him ignoring them. He would see that as dignified, that they're little bugs, annoyances, unworthy of his attention.
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