Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Meg on June 29, 2021, 03:57:24 PM
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It was posted today on the Mundabor blog that the SSPX has acquired the Minoritenkirche church in Vienna, Austria. The church was built in the year 1224 for the followers of St. Francis of Assisi.
Does anyone know if this is really true? If true, I would hope that he SSPX will not waver from the Traditional Catholic faith in this church, as handed down to them by Archbishop Lefebvre. Hopefully, they will not join forces with the conciliar church in this new church.
Wien: Providence At Work | Mundabor's Blog (wordpress.com) (https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2021/06/29/wien-providence-at-work/)
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Nice.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/01/Austria-Vienna-Minoritenkirche-Wien-church-altar-nave.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg/558px-Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg)
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Do you mean that they have been given ownership, or that the diocese is letting them use it?
Very different implications.
Then again, maybe not: Pre-ralliement, SSPX had to purchase through third parties, because the bishops refused (or were not allowed to) sell property to them.
Has that changed? If so, why?
A couple other interesting observations:
1) Austria is the home of the Jaidhofer Foundation, where in the past, a $150 million donation was given to the SSPX...along with the request of the donating family to have Zionist liberal SSPXER manage it (Trojan Horse?).
They were also previously given an actual castle to use as the district HQ.
2) Whether sale or permission to use, this development follows only one week behind the Austrian District Superior’s decision yo retract and recant his prohibition against Catholics using the abortion vaccine. Is there any relation between the two developments?
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Nice.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/01/Austria-Vienna-Minoritenkirche-Wien-church-altar-nave.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg/558px-Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg)
Yes, it certainly is a beautiful church.
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Do you mean that they have been given ownership, or that the diocese is letting them use it?
Very different implications.
Then again, maybe not: Pre-ralliement, SSPX had to purchase through third parties, because the bishops refused (or were not allowed to) sell property to them.
Has that changed? If so, why?
A couple other interesting observations:
1) Austria is the home of the Jaidhofer Foundation, where in the past, a $150 million donation was given to the SSPX...along with the request of the donating family to have Zionist liberal SSPXER manage it (Trojan Horse?).
They were also previously given an actual castle to use as the district HQ.
2) Whether sale or permission to use, this development follows only one week behind the Austrian District Superior’s decision yo retract and recant his prohibition against Catholics using the abortion vaccine. Is there any relation between the two developments?
Mundabor's blog: "The SSPX has been given the Minoritenkirche in Vienna."
This implies it is still under diocesan control, and therefore possible leverage against the SSPX.
I am now more interested in discovering whether there is a link between the Austrian District Superior's reversal/retraction of his prohibition against the abortion jab, and the gifting of the use of this church.
If it will later be discovered that the gifting of this chapel preceded the retraction, was there nevertheless an agreement beforehand that the retraction would be forthcoming?
These are QUESTIONS, not ACCUSATIONS.
PS: As of May 13, 2021 the church was still actively serving an Italian congregation, as well as acting as a concert hall. https://www.visitingvienna.com/entertainment/minoritenkirche/
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Mundabor's blog: "The SSPX has been given the Minoritenkirche in Vienna."
This implies it is still under diocesan control, and therefore possible leverage against the SSPX.
I am now more interested in discovering whether there is a link between the Austrian District Superior's reversal/retraction of his prohibition against the abortion jab, and the gifting of the use of this church.
If it will later be discovered that the gifting of this chapel preceded the retraction, was there nevertheless an agreement beforehand that the retraction would be forthcoming?
These are QUESTIONS, not ACCUSATIONS.
Yes, it could still be under diocesan control, and used for leverage.
You've asked good questions. Hopefully answers will be forthcoming soon.
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Mundabor's blog: "The SSPX has been given the Minoritenkirche in Vienna."
This implies it is still under diocesan control, and therefore possible leverage against the SSPX.
I am now more interested in discovering whether there is a link between the Austrian District Superior's reversal/retraction of his prohibition against the abortion jab, and the gifting of the use of this church.
If it will later be discovered that the gifting of this chapel preceded the retraction, was there nevertheless an agreement beforehand that the retraction would be forthcoming?
These are QUESTIONS, not ACCUSATIONS.
PS: As of May 13, 2021 the church was still actively serving an Italian congregation, as well as acting as a concert hall. https://www.visitingvienna.com/entertainment/minoritenkirche/
According to GloriaTV: https://gloria.tv/post/ujeFiVmiFXbK3bCgZzBVum96a
"PiusX: Big Blow for Vienna Archdiocese
The renowned Minoritenkirche in the very centre of Vienna, Austria, the former Italian National Church, was given by its owner, the Italian Congregation, to the Society of Saint Pius X, they announced in a circular email."
In other words, it does not seem to have been gifted by the Archdiocese.
Not sure how things work in Austria, but it seems strange for a Catholic group of laymen to own a church independent of the Archdiocese. Stranger still to gift it to the SSPX with no publicly known previous relations with them (i.e., there wasn't even an SSPX mission in Vienna).
Why did the Italian Congregation (who the day before had been Novus Ordo) just gift it to the SSPX???
Were they told to do so by the Vienna Archdiocese?
Can Austrian member "Against the Heresies" shed any light on any of these questions?
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I know in France all churches are the property of the state. It may be the same in austria where they can move in and set up shop in an abandoned church.
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Some remarks:
1) The news is true. In an internal email, the District Superior stated, "Today our beloved Society has officially become the owner of one of the most prestigious and beautiful churches in Vienna, the Minorite Church of Madonna della Neve, in a prime location in the 1st district right next to the Federal Chancellery."
2) The Minorite Church (Friars Minor Conventual Church) is actually privately owned and does not belong to the Diocese. This is for historical reasons (expropriation of church property under liberal/masonic Emperor Joseph II. and subsequent donation of the church to a private association, the Italian Congregation).
This private association has now transferred the church to the SSPX. Why, I do not know. In the comments at “gloria.tv” there are two pieces of information:
a) the Italian Congregation did not want to give the church to the diocese under any circuмstances
b) the church was supposedly offered to the Society of St. Peter before, but the latter did not react (probably to avoid a conflict with the diocese).
3) The SSPX has had a branch in Vienna since 1981. Since 1984 the SSPX has celebrated Mass in the present chapel. However, for almost 20 years they have been looking for a better location. In this respect, the interest in vacant or empty churches is not surprising.
4) Why the church was finally given to the SSPX, I cannot answer. However, one should not forget: Maintaining such a huge building and all the artwork is very expensive. It happens again and again that in Austria you can buy an old building for a symbolic Euro, but with the obligation to maintain this building. And this is where the financial challenge lies.
5) There is certainly no connection with the SSPX position on vaccination. This is a completely unfounded and arbitrary speculation.
My personal assessment
The matter is not yet settled. There will certainly be attempts to challenge the donation.
I would be happy if the SSPX does not get the church. The financial burden would be gigantic.
Above all, the SSPX would be in the spotlight. This is not a small village church but one of the most important churches in Vienna, absolutely in the center, right next to the Chancellor's official residence. There is also a lot of tourism there. In addition, Cardinal Schönborn's anger will ensure that what is done or said there is closely monitored. Easily scandals can be produced and maybe even violations of the law (e.g. hate speech) can become a huge problem for the SSPX.
The pastoral care is not helped by all this. (At the time of the persecution of Christians, Christians also did not erect a religious building on the Roman Forum. It is no different today. The superiors should be a little more wise about this).
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Nice.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/01/Austria-Vienna-Minoritenkirche-Wien-church-altar-nave.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg/558px-Minoritenkirche.Wien.jpg)
What a beautiful church. Of course, it pales in comparison to the New Mass, at which we have the grace to assist, even if at more modest locations. Better to remain faithful in a hotel conference room than to compromise in the most beautiful church building.
I wonder why they would just "give" it to the SSPX. Perhaps it's in need of massive renovation which the Italian Congregation doesn't have the stomach for. I bet that on most Sundays only about 50 people attend, given the state of faith in most European countries these days ... not enough to support it financially, and the IC had enough faith left not to want to sell it to become a brothel or restaurant or dance club.
Plus I wonder if there's some ambiguity in the term "given." Was there a transfer or ownership or just the right of use?
Perhaps the SSPX will keep that Luther Table in there ... in case some NO presbyter wishes to concelebrate in the ordinary form.
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Plus I wonder if there's some ambiguity in the term "given." Was there a transfer or ownership or just the right of use?
Perhaps the SSPX will keep that Luther Table in there ... in case some NO presbyter wishes to concelebrate in the ordinary form.
"Given" means that the SSPX is the new owner.
Of course the SSPX won't keep the Luther Table. (The only reason to tolerate this object would be some prescripton regarding monument conservation. But I don't think that is the case here.)
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Here you can see an actual extract of the cadastral register.
(I highlighted the address of the church and the part of the actual owner. In the last line is also written that the SSPX got the ownership on May 25th and as a gift “Schenkungsvertrag”.)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0f7shDX/Grundbuch.jpg)
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"Given" means that the SSPX is the new owner.
Of course the SSPX won't keep the Luther Table. (The only reason to tolerate this object would be some prescripton regarding monument conservation. But I don't think that is the case here.)
That second part was said "tongue-in-cheek" ... as a joke.
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I would be happy if the SSPX does not get the church. The financial burden would be gigantic.
Above all, the SSPX would be in the spotlight. This is not a small village church but one of the most important churches in Vienna, absolutely in the center, right next to the Chancellor's official residence. There is also a lot of tourism there. In addition, Cardinal Schönborn's anger will ensure that what is done or said there is closely monitored. Easily scandals can be produced and maybe even violations of the law (e.g. hate speech) can become a huge problem for the SSPX.
The pastoral care is not helped by all this. (At the time of the persecution of Christians, Christians also did not erect a religious building on the Roman Forum. It is no different today. The superiors should be a little more wise about this).
Thank you for all of the useful info that you've provided. The above paragraph that you wrote is of concern, because you are right that the SSPX needs to be careful here, if they celebrate Mass in this church.
You mention that in the time of persecution, Christians did not erect a religious building on the Roman Forum. I assume that Cardinal Schonborn will be intolerant of Tradition here. But he does not have any real authority over the SSPX, I hope. The SSPX does not really take the stance of Archbishop Lefebvre these days, so maybe it won't be a problem.
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Based on the video on Gloria TV, the table appears to have been removed already.
I take the opposite stance. I hope this rattles everyone in the Vienna diocese. We have got to stop this timid attitude. Make war on the Novus Ordo.
I have been to Vienna several times. This is a great thing with the sacrileges going on in St Stephen's.
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The danger does not come directly, but indirectly from Cardinal Schönborn. It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.
Vienna may be a big city, but in some ways it is also just a small village. The important figures in politics, business and the church are well known to each other or even friends (and, of course, they all are liberal and politically left-wing). It’s not difficult for the Cardinal to call in a favor.
These considerations have not the least to do with timidity. Of course you can “courageously”, loudly and provocatively proclaim the catholic teachings to the Freemasons in power, but one will get then very fast problems with the justice. The registered association of the SSPX will be dissolved and all activities of the SSPX, then stigmatized as “extreme association” will be forbidden. (Perhaps one or the other must also go to prison. But that the good God will then send an angel for such foolish “courage” to free the prisoners, as it happened with St. Peter, is not so sure.)
“Be ye therefore wise as serpents” (Mt 10,16).
The video that Gloria.tv linked to the article doesn’t show actual footage or even the SSPX. It’s from 2016. Here is the link to the original video, actually on the website of the Minoritenkirche: http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm (http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm)
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The danger does not come directly, but indirectly from Cardinal Schönborn. It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.
Vienna may be a big city, but in some ways it is also just a small village. The important figures in politics, business and the church are well known to each other or even friends (and, of course, they all are liberal and politically left-wing). It’s not difficult for the Cardinal to call in a favor.
These considerations have not the least to do with timidity. Of course you can “courageously”, loudly and provocatively proclaim the catholic teachings to the Freemasons in power, but one will get then very fast problems with the justice. The registered association of the SSPX will be dissolved and all activities of the SSPX, then stigmatized as “extreme association” will be forbidden. (Perhaps one or the other must also go to prison. But that the good God will then send an angel for such foolish “courage” to free the prisoners, as it happened with St. Peter, is not so sure.)
“Be ye therefore wise as serpents” (Mt 10,16).
The video that Gloria.tv linked to the article doesn’t show actual footage or even the SSPX. It’s from 2016. Here is the link to the original video, actually on the website of the Minoritenkirche: http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm (http://www.minoritenkirche-wien.info/daten/lnk2016/fuenfherrenamt-video.htm)
It's sad to think that the Novus Ordo hierarchy will want to persecute the SSPX on the pretext that they are Catholic. Do you think that the Mass as celebrated by the SSPX there will be well-attended? From the video linked to in your above post, it's looks like the TLM has already been celebrated there, but maybe not on a regular basis.
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It is quite true that the Cardinal cannot do anything against the SSPX from an ecclesiastical point of view. He can, however, try to make use of the state to achieve his goals. An allegedly discriminatory statement in a sermon, an allegedly problematic statement in a book that is being sold... It is easy to find pretexts to activate the public prosecutor's office and to fight the SSPX with massive problems, expensive lawsuits and negative headlines.
Don't worry, the SSPX has purged itself of it's "disobedient" past. They stopped selling any controversial books, and stopped being so "negative". Now they look for the positives in Pope Francis, Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo. Now they work with Conciliar bishops every chance they get...
Any priests who said anything "problematic" are no longer part of the SSPX -- so the SSPX would be instantly cleared of any suspicion of wrongdoing or wrongthink. If anything, it would backfire, showing that the SSPX wants no part of "wrongthink" or political incorrectness.
What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
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Don't worry, the SSPX has purged itself of it's "disobedient" past. They stopped selling any controversial books, and stopped being so "negative". Now they look for the positives in Pope Francis, Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo. Now they work with Conciliar bishops every chance they get...
Any priests who said anything "problematic" are no longer part of the SSPX -- so the SSPX would be instantly cleared of any suspicion of wrongdoing or wrongthink. If anything, it would backfire, showing that the SSPX wants no part of "wrongthink" or political incorrectness.
What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
True.
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Do you think that the Mass as celebrated by the SSPX there will be well-attended?
The branch in Vienna is not new, but the Minoritenkirche only serves as a replacement for the previous chapel. So the same number of faithful will attend Holy Mass as before, I think around 140 faithful on sundays.
From the video linked to in your above post, it's looks like the TLM has already been celebrated there, but maybe not on a regular basis.
Correct. There has already occasionally been celebrated the traditional Mass in the Minoritenkirche, but not by the SSPX.
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What are they going to come up with? Old quotes from Bishop Williamson? You do know +Williamson isn't part of the SSPX any more, right?
I understand what you are getting at and to a certain extent I share this assessment. I have been associated with the SSPX for over 30 years and I know its development very well (at least in Europe).
In order to get in trouble with the state (at least in Austria) in this day and age, it is already enough to quote the Holy Scriptures (about ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or the role of women, for example). And, of course, one can always bring old quotes to badmouth the breeding ground or the mindset of the SSPX in public. The unproven accusation of having a proximity to National Socialism is a significant problem in Austria (and Germany). Leftists and liberals like to use this to damage opponents in the long term.
To make one thing clear: This is not my view, I am just trying to give (American) readers a bit of an idea of the problem. By acquiring this church, the SSPX is likely to unnecessarily and unfairly run into problems that could easily have been avoided by choosing a less significant and central church.
If one wants to avoid these problems as far as possible, this will only be possible through reprehensible compromises with the spirit of the times. Unfortunately, Fr. Wegner has been the prior of Vienna for a year, so this should not be so difficult for him.
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The branch in Vienna is not new, but the Minoritenkirche only serves as a replacement for the previous chapel. So the same number of faithful will attend Holy Mass as before, I think around 140 faithful on sundays.
140 people can't pay the maintenance on that Church, it is not even close. You'd need 4000+ people.
That "giveaway" is like someone giving me a 100 foot yacht that I am not permitted to sell. Very few people can even afford just the dockage fees ($400,000 to $1,500,000 per year), let alone the 400 gallons per hour it consumes in diesel fuel.
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140 people can't pay the maintenance on that Church, it is not even close. You'd need 4000+ people.
True.
That's why I said earlier that the financial burden is gigantic. And that's another reason why this church doesn't fit for the SSPX.
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True.
That's why I said earlier that the financial burden is gigantic. And that's another reason why this church doesn't fit for the SSPX.
Not even with the Jaidhofer Foundation right there?
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Not even with the Jaidhofer Foundation right there?
Since I am not the chief financial officer of the SSPX, I can of course only make an educated guess:
The Jaidhofer Foundation (actually the "Jaidhofer Private Foundation St. Josef and Marcellus") is not in a position to do so either:
1) There is a very clear mission of the foundation. This provides that only the annual income is available, the assets themselves remain untouched.
2) There are already countless projects that are supported from these annual earnings, not only here in Austria (e.g. the expensive renovation of the Jaidhof castle), but worldwide. In particular, the very expensive seminary in Dillwyn should be mentioned here. Already now the projects (which are predominantly completely inappropriate for the actual emergency situation in the church) exceed by far the possibilities of the foundation.
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Evidently, the SSPX has now moved into the Minorite church in Vienna. I found a Tablet article (a very liberal newsource) published yesterday that says that the local bishop won't be able to have any say or control over this church (fortunately). Hopefully the SSPX won't want to collaborate with the local diocese, as they do in other dioceses around the world.
Historic Viennese church given to Lefebvrists (thetablet.co.uk) (https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/14506/historic-viennese-church-given-to-lefebvrists)
Here's an Eponymous Flower article about the SSPX recent move to this church, by Roberto de Mattei (not a fan of Mattei, but the article seems okay):
The Eponymous Flower: SSPX Acquires Minorite Church In Vienna — An Old Center of Resistance and Restoration (http://www.theeponymousflower.com/2021/09/sspx-acquires-minorite-church-in-vienna.html)
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This is good. Hopefully the SSPX Priory for Austria has the means to support the upkeep of the church. Provided that is the case, this has to be positive, challenging the Graf von Schonborn, a man of ever flexible views, in his lair. Even the mildest traditionalism of a doctrinal and social variety (the Cardinal is himself liturgically conservative as far as Novus Ordo only Conciliar bishops go) will provide a challenge. Chancellor Kurz is adequately conservative so I don't him providing the support needed for a hate crime prosecution (even if there is an independent prosecutor, a hostile government would find way to making the hate crime prosecution fail). I also don't think the Archbishop of Vienna is the sort of ideologue to wage war on the SSPX. I see him ignoring them. He would see that as dignified, that they're little bugs, annoyances, unworthy of his attention.