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Author Topic: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?  (Read 3678 times)

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Offline Matthew

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SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
« on: January 01, 2024, 12:42:31 PM »
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  • Ok, let's say the Archbishop was providentially prepared by God to de-facto lead the Traditional Movement for many years, start the SSPX, etc. This much is simply a matter of history. If you read his biography, it's clear he was arranged by God to help so many Catholics into lifeboats so they could survive (keep the Faith).

    The Archbishop's crowning virtue (besides charity) was PRUDENCE. He went as far as he needed to in his resistance, but not a step farther. He did nothing without justification or a good reason.

    But the Archbishop died in 1991. Would he have become Sedevacantist if he had lived to 2024? We honestly don't know.

    But here's the point: I (and others) adhered to the SSPX because they were the most Catholic position, blessed by God, with good fruit, not going a step further than they had to, in their resistance/opposition to Modernism and the new man-made Conciliar Church. It was the safest place to park your Faith during the Crisis in the Church, and +ABL was clearly providential, so he was a good man to follow.

    But today, aside from following the same line (today it would be the Resistance, as the neo-SSPX is closer to the FSSP now than to the classic SSPX position), what obviously providential figure is there to trust or follow?

    No one. There is no sedevacantist individual OR group which screams "God is here", or "this is where you should leave (wherever you are right now) and get your butt over here, because HERE is the safest/best place to keep the Faith during this Crisis in the Church."

    What Sedevacantist leader, what sedevacantist group's founding, reads like a Lives of the Saints founding of the Redemptorists, Benedictines, Dominicans, Jesuits, etc.? I'm not aware of any. CMRI was founded by Schuckardt, so that one's disqualified as a modern-day Saint story.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt


    Allow me to rephrase my point:

    I
    +Archbishop Lefebvre was a holy, saintly man. How God prepared him for his life's work reads like Lives of the Saints.
    ...and I would know what those sound like, because I've read probably 300 or more such books and biographies.

    Let's put it this way: if +ABL's life and work makes you feel uncomfortable, or puts you on the defensive, then maybe JUST MAYBE you hitched your wagon to the wrong horse?

    Again, for those who are unaware of crucial tidbits of +ABL's heroic Catholic career, you need to investigate it for the sake of truth. His holy family, his siblings, the number of vocations in the +Lefebvre household, the fact he was a prominent clergyman before Vatican II, the fact he headed up the International Group of Fathers, the ONLY resistance by the assembled bishops to full Modernism during Vatican II. And +ABL was personally trusted by the Pope with authority over French-speaking Africa. Last but not least, this extremely well-trusted Churchman was on the committee to draft the schemata that were SUPPOSED TO BE addressed at Vatican II -- the schemata that were thrown out at the outset of the Council.

    And despite having a phone book full of Traditional "groups" in current year, that was not true in 1970. All you had were scattered resistant priests refusing to say the New Mass and saying the Tridentine Mass for scattered groups of Faithful here and there all over the world. But what about would-be seminarians? They can't just go off and start a chapel, and become a priest online. They came to +ABL and begged him to start a seminary. And he did.

    In the end, +ABL's PRIESTLY SOCIETY was rubber-stamped by God according to anyone who has the Faith and eyes to see. He died on March 25th, which is literally the MOST PRIESTLY DAY in the whole 365-day calendar. Holy Thursday is a movable Feast. March 25th is when the Eternal High Priest became incarnate, bridging God and man, which is fundamentally Priest. He is Priest by his very being, having both Divine and human natures. I can't emphasize this enough. +ABL didn't start "another Trad group", let alone to compete with other Trad groups. He started a Priestly Society to form priests according to the pre-Vatican II ways. Offering the Tridentine Mass in various existing and to-be-created "Mass centers" came as a logical consequence of the former.

    His many experiences as a missionary in Africa prepared him to defend the Tridentine Mass (having seen its power first-hand) and also the danger of priests being alone (as he witnessed in Africa, with priests joining whole villages in binge drinking). That is why he set up the system of "Priories" in the SSPX, where priests would always have a homebase with 3+ priests to recharge their spiritual batteries.

    Once we have established that +ABL was an outstanding, peerless example of Divine Providence to see us through the greatest Crisis in Church history, we move on to my second point:

    II
    If I'm to leave +ABL's path and position on the Crisis, I expect to follow someone AS CLEARLY INDICATED by Providence as +ABL was, or MORE so. Not less than. In my opinion, all the "great sede priests" you listed pale in comparison to the stunning endorsement by Heaven that +ABL had.

    Remember, it's not what a man DOES by his own will. That's not how it works. It's what HAPPENS, especially what happens that WASN'T the will of the saint in question. That's what you have to pay attention to.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #1 on: January 01, 2024, 12:46:34 PM »
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  • By the way, when I call +ABL "providential" it's not because I'm biased. It's because I'm objective.

    I mean that +ABL had a stellar career in the Catholic Church before the Crisis, he led the Resistance or conservative "international group of Fathers" during Vatican II, and so he was singularly equipped to convince Catholics and lead them into safe lifeboats in the immediate aftermath of Vatican II and the New Mass. He even received permission for his first Seminary, etc. 

    He didn't set out to "start a group", it just happened. People kept coming to him, seminarians came to him begging to be trained in the old way, etc. The whole thing just HAPPENED just like you read about in Lives of the Saints with any other religious congregation. That's what I mean by "providential". What happened with +ABL is what GOD wanted, not what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre wanted.

    If you don't know the history of +ABL, I actually feel sorry for you, and I pity your ignorance. I'm not saying that as a glib insult; I mean "I have feelings of sadness due to your lack of knowledge about +ABL." Maybe you should look into his history; he's an important figure in 20th Century Catholicism and the Traditional Movement, regardless of where you go to Mass.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #2 on: January 01, 2024, 01:03:41 PM »
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  • Why does this post seem like a gigantic Ad Hominem. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #3 on: January 01, 2024, 01:41:21 PM »
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  • Ok, let's say the Archbishop was providentially prepared by God to de-facto lead the Traditional Movement for many years, start the SSPX, etc. This much is simply a matter of history. If you read his biography, it's clear he was arranged by God to help so many Catholics into lifeboats so they could survive (keep the Faith).

    The Archbishop's crowning virtue (besides charity) was PRUDENCE. He went as far as he needed to in his resistance, but not a step farther. He did nothing without justification or a good reason.

    But the Archbishop died in 1991. Would he have become Sedevacantist if he had lived to 2024? We honestly don't know.

    But here's the point: I (and others) adhered to the SSPX because they were the most Catholic position, blessed by God, with good fruit, not going a step further than they had to, in their resistance/opposition to Modernism and the new man-made Conciliar Church. It was the safest place to park your Faith during the Crisis in the Church, and +ABL was clearly providential, so he was a good man to follow.

    But today, aside from following the same line (today it would be the Resistance, as the neo-SSPX is closer to the FSSP now than to the classic SSPX position), what obviously providential figure is there to trust or follow?

    No one. There is no sedevacantist individual OR group which screams "God is here", or "this is where you should leave (wherever you are right now) and get your butt over here, because HERE is the safest/best place to keep the Faith during this Crisis in the Church."

    What Sedevacantist leader, what sedevacantist group's founding, reads like a Lives of the Saints founding of the Redemptorists, Benedictines, Dominicans, Jesuits, etc.? I'm not aware of any. CMRI was founded by Schuckardt, so that one's disqualified as a modern-day Saint story.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt
    Though AFAIK he is not a sedevacantist, Bishop Williamson would seem to fill this role.

    And then there's Viganò.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #4 on: January 01, 2024, 01:51:23 PM »
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  • The reason there is a Resistance to the SSPX is because +Fellay and company clearly steered from the path.  But that started in the very earliest of days with their clandestine meetings in GREC.  And the sole reason Fr. Fellay became +Fellay was because his bishopric was purchased by a large donor.  So, it's clear that +Lefebvre was human like any other.  Yes, I think he was the key player in this mess but he also wavered especially regarding the error that has become +Fellay.  That too is objective history. 

    Now waiting for all of the 'you hate +Lefebvre???!!!' threads...


    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #5 on: January 01, 2024, 01:53:16 PM »
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  • Bp. Sandborn, Fr. Cekeda, Fr. Jenkins are the main ones that pop into my head as far as influencers go. The CMRI also has a lot of good resources as well. I learned quite a bit from those three. I'm not sure what the point of this post is. 

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #6 on: January 01, 2024, 02:17:38 PM »
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  • Possibly +Vigano. God knows and time will tell.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #7 on: January 01, 2024, 02:19:10 PM »
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  • More to the point as to why, in my opinion, +Lefebvre didn't go 'full sede' is because 90% of those following him would've disappeared into the weeds.  People are still having trouble getting rid of an idiot usurper like Bergoglio with all the harm he's done - and that's a ton.  If +Lefebvre had carried through with all the statements he made to that effect, in those early days, people simply wouldn't have been able to handle it and 'tradition' would be a mere fraction of what it is today.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #8 on: January 01, 2024, 02:24:41 PM »
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  • But today, aside from following the same line (today it would be the Resistance, as the neo-SSPX is closer to the FSSP now than to the classic SSPX position), what obviously providential figure is there to trust or follow?

    No one. There is no sedevacantist individual OR group which screams "God is here", or "this is where you should leave (wherever you are right now) and get your butt over here, because HERE is the safest/best place to keep the Faith during this Crisis in the Church."

    Since we're talking about today, what R&R group screams "God is here"?  I'm not sure what the point is here.  You can say "the Resistance", but that's your opinion, and from the outside, given the antics of Pfeiffer-ville, a third-party observer might think otherwise ("See Fr. Pfeiffer.  That Resistance is a mess.")

    Perhaps the closest individual who MIGHT be in a position to become some kind of +Lefebvre-like leader would be a +Vigano.

    But today we have the neo-SSPX slouching inexorably toward the Conciliar Church, and then we have myriad splinter groups ... BOTH among sedevacantists and R&R.

    So I fail to see how this criticism is unique to sedevacantism.

    Bottom line is that the only REAL source of unity for Catholics is the Papacy and the Pope, but given the vacuum of papal authority, this fragmentation is inevitable.

    I recall that Bishop Williamson gave a talk after the Archbishop had died predicting the fragmentation and splitting precisely because he said that the Archbishop was a glue and without him the fragmentation was inevitable.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2024, 02:29:34 PM »
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  • Bp. Sandborn, Fr. Cekeda, Fr. Jenkins are the main ones that pop into my head as far as influencers go. The CMRI also has a lot of good resources as well. I learned quite a bit from those three. I'm not sure what the point of this post is.

    Yes, these are individuals.  But Bishop Williamson's entire model for the Resistance is basically patterned around this notion, that there are individual priests and groups and pockets of faithful in a loose cooperation.  There were many independent priests out there, but there was a vacuum to produce more Traditional priests, until Providence called upon Archbishop Lefebvre.  If you recall, +Lefebvre did not proactively set out to create a Society, but was responding to requests from Conciliar-cancelled seminarians who sought him out.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #10 on: January 01, 2024, 03:16:01 PM »
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  • Archbishop Thuc.

    ARCHBISHOP THUC (ourladyoftheholyrosarychapel.com)

    Unlike ABL, Archbishop Thuc had a papal mandate.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #11 on: January 01, 2024, 03:16:40 PM »
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  • Perhaps the closest individual who MIGHT be in a position to become some kind of +Lefebvre-like leader would be a +Vigano.

    I agree.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #12 on: January 01, 2024, 05:19:27 PM »
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  • Archbishop Thuc.

    ARCHBISHOP THUC (ourladyoftheholyrosarychapel.com)

    Unlike ABL, Archbishop Thuc had a papal mandate.

    That's interesting.  Does that mandate allow for bishops at any time into the future?

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #13 on: January 01, 2024, 05:37:45 PM »
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  • Ok, let's say the Archbishop was providentially prepared by God to de-facto lead the Traditional Movement for many years, start the SSPX, etc. This much is simply a matter of history. If you read his biography, it's clear he was arranged by God to help so many Catholics into lifeboats so they could survive (keep the Faith).

    The Archbishop's crowning virtue (besides charity) was PRUDENCE. He went as far as he needed to in his resistance, but not a step farther. He did nothing without justification or a good reason.

    But the Archbishop died in 1991. Would he have become Sedevacantist if he had lived to 2024? We honestly don't know.

    But here's the point: I (and others) adhered to the SSPX because they were the most Catholic position, blessed by God, with good fruit, not going a step further than they had to, in their resistance/opposition to Modernism and the new man-made Conciliar Church. It was the safest place to park your Faith during the Crisis in the Church, and +ABL was clearly providential, so he was a good man to follow.

    But today, aside from following the same line (today it would be the Resistance, as the neo-SSPX is closer to the FSSP now than to the classic SSPX position), what obviously providential figure is there to trust or follow?

    No one. There is no sedevacantist individual OR group which screams "God is here", or "this is where you should leave (wherever you are right now) and get your butt over here, because HERE is the safest/best place to keep the Faith during this Crisis in the Church."

    What Sedevacantist leader, what sedevacantist group's founding, reads like a Lives of the Saints founding of the Redemptorists, Benedictines, Dominicans, Jesuits, etc.? I'm not aware of any. CMRI was founded by Schuckardt, so that one's disqualified as a modern-day Saint story.
    Who cares.  What have you went out into the desert to see?  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX had saintly ABL. Who do the sedes got?
    « Reply #14 on: January 01, 2024, 07:12:16 PM »
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  • You’re forgetting about two saintly monks living in poverty in a trailer park in Fillmore NY who have been “cancelled” by the rest of Traditional Catholicism by making sure nobody gets to hide their dirty laundry 

    (In case it’s not obvious, this is a joke)