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Author Topic: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?  (Read 1685 times)

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Offline DustyActual

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SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
« on: September 01, 2021, 03:09:35 PM »
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  • What do you guys think of this video? I myself am conflicted on this question and I have read from both sides. It also seems that Archbishop Lefebvre changed his views on the validity of the new rite of priestly ordination over time. Is there an objective doubt with the new rite of priesthood in itself, or does the doubt come with the intention of the ordaining bishop?
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    Offline Bataar

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #1 on: September 01, 2021, 03:45:10 PM »
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  • Saying I doubt the validity of NO bishops is probably too strong, more that I question it. Currently, I go to an SSPX church instead of FSSP for this reason. I know for sure their sacraments are all legit. This CMRI video compares the NO mass to the TLM Mass, but near the 1:04 mark, it discusses the difference in the rite of consecration and it's more convincing (doesn't mean it's 100% accurate) than the video presented here though.





    Offline Comrade

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #2 on: September 01, 2021, 04:54:37 PM »
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  • What do you guys think of this video? I myself am conflicted on this question and I have read from both sides. It also seems that Archbishop Lefebvre changed his views on the validity of the new rite of priestly ordination over time. Is there an objective doubt with the new rite of priesthood in itself, or does the doubt come with the intention of the ordaining bishop?
    Another poorly done argument.

    • Fr. McFarland spends most of time discounting the issue because of an emotional reaction from people who hate the Councilor church or the misconception that the chruch would cease to exist if all of the current V2 Bishops were not valid. More Ad hominems, more fear mongering, little substance.
    • Does not actually present the real opposing arguments. For example, he mentions the "Ut" argument but does not provide proof that the meaning does not change the formula. He just says a " it is 2 letter word, how can a tiny word change the meaning?". Note: that was a paraphrase. Remember the "Many vs. All" argument. An honest representation would show the translations side-by-side.
    • Makes claim that the The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus was an approved version used by the Church, but does not provide any reference. I wonder if this was the Anti-pope Hippolytus who crafted that one.

    I was looking for more background into this issue. SSPX did provide any at all. Here is Fr. Cekada argument: http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf

    Even if you don't agree with Fr. Cekada at least take the time to confirm one of his arguments using the resources he provides. I think these podcasts are missing a question and answer section.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 06:12:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    He just says a " it is 2 letter word, how can a tiny word change the meaning?

    :facepalm:

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2021, 06:23:25 PM »
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  • Saying I doubt the validity of NO bishops is probably too strong, more that I question it. Currently, I go to an SSPX church instead of FSSP for this reason. I know for sure their sacraments are all legit. This CMRI video compares the NO mass to the TLM Mass, but near the 1:04 mark, it discusses the difference in the rite of consecration and it's more convincing (doesn't mean it's 100% accurate) than the video presented here though.


    You are aware that apparently NO priests are taken into the sspx with no conditional ordination right.  So I think to say you know sspx sacraments are all legit is a big stretch.  Further, the whole una cuм thing, how someone in good conscience can say they are in union with bergolio is beyond me.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2021, 06:30:31 PM »
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  • :facepalm:
    Another argument I heard is that in the past old copies of the ritual exist where the word "ut" was present and also copies exist where it was absent, so in the past the Church had used both forms.
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    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 07:24:57 PM »
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  • Another poorly done argument.

    • Fr. McFarland spends most of time discounting the issue because of an emotional reaction from people who hate the Councilor church or the misconception that the chruch would cease to exist if all of the current V2 Bishops were not valid. More Ad hominems, more fear mongering, little substance.
    • Does not actually present the real opposing arguments. For example, he mentions the "Ut" argument but does not provide proof that the meaning does not change the formula. He just says a " it is 2 letter word, how can a tiny word change the meaning?". Note: that was a paraphrase. Remember the "Many vs. All" argument. An honest representation would show the translations side-by-side.
    • Makes claim that the The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus was an approved version used by the Church, but does not provide any reference. I wonder if this was the Anti-pope Hippolytus who crafted that one.

    I was looking for more background into this issue. SSPX did provide any at all. Here is Fr. Cekada argument: http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf

    Even if you don't agree with Fr. Cekada at least take the time to confirm one of his arguments using the resources he provides. I think these podcasts are missing a question and answer section.
    I'd say that there are more complications with "for all" used in the new mass, than with "Ut" in the form for the rite of ordination. The removal of "Ut" does not change the meaning. If you look at the old form of episcopal consecration by itself, it isn't clear in my opinion.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 07:29:47 PM »
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  • What do you guys think of this video?
    I do not need to watch it, for I know it is the same ole dung repeated since 2005, when the SSPX had to deal for the first time with a "pope" that was consecrated a bishop with the new formula, Ratzinger. Before that time you could find many SSPX priests openly teaching people about the doubts in the new ordinations of priests and the consecrations of bishops. After Ratzinger they changed their tune. There's no money in saying their superiors in Rome may not be valid priests when they're kowtowing to them.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 09:54:44 PM »
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  • I came across a quote from Bishop Tissier from the 2016 Econe Ordinations: 

    "We cannot, of course, accept this new sabotaged rite of ordination which poses doubts about the validity of many ordinations according to the new rite." 

    "But, dear faithful, this prayer, this rite of transmitting the power to forgive sins, was simply suppressed in the new rite of ordination. It is no longer mentioned. So this new rite of ordination is not Catholic. And so we shall continue, of course, to faithfully transmit the real and valid priesthood through the traditional rite of priestly ordination."


    Here is a few links. 
    https://fsspx.uk/en/news-events/news/ordination-sermon-bishop-tissier-de-mallerais-16842
    https://laportelatine.org/docuмents/spiritualite/sermons/sermon-de-mgr-tissier-de-mallerais-le-29-juin-2016-a-econe
    https://novusordowatch.org/2016/07/tissier-invalidity-novus-ordo-ordinations/







    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #9 on: September 02, 2021, 12:26:03 AM »
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  • I came across a quote from Bishop Tissier from the 2016 Econe Ordinations:

    "We cannot, of course, accept this new sabotaged rite of ordination which poses doubts about the validity of many ordinations according to the new rite."
    That's not inconsistent with the video.
    If he were saying the rite itself was invalid, he wouldn't doubt "many" but "all" ordinations.

    The SSPX posed their doubts mainly around intention, saying the weaknesses of the "sabotaged" NO rites permit the minister to lack the appropriate intention. Secondarily was a concern about ministers ad libbing the rites.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #10 on: September 02, 2021, 04:50:48 AM »
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  • I do not need to watch it, for I know it is the same ole dung repeated since 2005, when the SSPX had to deal for the first time with a "pope" that was consecrated a bishop with the new formula, Ratzinger. Before that time you could find many SSPX priests openly teaching people about the doubts in the new ordinations of priests and the consecrations of bishops. After Ratzinger they changed their tune. There's no money in saying their superiors in Rome may not be valid priests when they're kowtowing to them.
    In a nutshell, he (sspx) says the new rite of ordination is valid when followed to the letter, but doubtful or invalid if the consecrating bishop does not follow the NO script but instead, 'ad libs' during the ordination. What he said there has always been the position of the SSPX since it's very beginning.

    Like so many issues that are still discussed and debated, this is an old issue, it's as old as the NO and was addressed way back when the new rite first came out.

    It was addressed +50 years ago during the infancy of the NO, even before the SSPX was founded, precisely because the enemies flooded the Church with effeminate, liberal priests which caused doubt of their validity among most of the truly faithful way back then.

    So this particular issue is not anything that was not already addressed pre-1969, before many (most?) people here were even born, or converted, or converted back to the true faith. So he's not saying anything that has not already been said umpteen times over the last 5 decades.    

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #11 on: September 02, 2021, 10:58:11 AM »
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  • Fr McFarland can say there isn’t doubt, but reading the opinions of many Trads, the sensus fidelium seems to think otherwise. 

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #12 on: September 02, 2021, 11:03:48 AM »
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  • In a nutshell, he (sspx) says the new rite of ordination is valid when followed to the letter, but doubtful or invalid if the consecrating bishop does not follow the NO script but instead, 'ad libs' during the ordination. What he said there has always been the position of the SSPX since it's very beginning.

    Like so many issues that are still discussed and debated, this is an old issue, it's as old as the NO and was addressed way back when the new rite first came out.

    It was addressed +50 years ago during the infancy of the NO, even before the SSPX was founded, precisely because the enemies flooded the Church with effeminate, liberal priests which caused doubt of their validity among most of the truly faithful way back then.

    So this particular issue is not anything that was not already addressed pre-1969, before many (most?) people here were even born, or converted, or converted back to the true faith. So he's not saying anything that has not already been said umpteen times over the last 5 decades.    
    The SSPX does not conditionally ordain any Novus Ordo priests anymore, whereas before they conditionally ordained all of them. So, where the rubber meets the road, where it counts, they have changed completely.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #13 on: September 02, 2021, 11:29:17 AM »
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  • In a nutshell, he (sspx) says the new rite of ordination is valid when followed to the letter, but doubtful or invalid if the consecrating bishop does not follow the NO script but instead, 'ad libs' during the ordination. What he said there has always been the position of the SSPX since it's very beginning.

    Like so many issues that are still discussed and debated, this is an old issue, it's as old as the NO and was addressed way back when the new rite first came out.

    It was addressed +50 years ago during the infancy of the NO, even before the SSPX was founded, precisely because the enemies flooded the Church with effeminate, liberal priests which caused doubt of their validity among most of the truly faithful way back then.

    So this particular issue is not anything that was not already addressed pre-1969, before many (most?) people here were even born, or converted, or converted back to the true faith. So he's not saying anything that has not already been said umpteen times over the last 5 decades.    
    One of the disagreements that the "nine" had with +Lefebvre, was that he allowed some novus ordo priests into the SSPX without conditional ordination. To me it appears that those "nine" believed that there was an objective doubt with the new rite of ordination, in itself, and not just on the bishop's intention. When I read the conference that +Lefebvre gave to the seminarians at Ridgefield in 1983 or 1984, he talked about the new rite of ordination, and it seems that he didn't believe that there was an objective doubt with the rite itself, as "the nine" believed there to be. He just said that each case has to be investigated. However in 1988, +Lefebvre wrote to a certain Mr. Wilson and he agreed with Wilson's desire to conditionally reordain novus ordo priests, and that he has done that many times. +Lefebvre also said "All sacraments from the modernists bishops or priests are doubtful now. The changes are increasing and their intentions are no more Catholic."

    This is where I am conflicted because it appears that +Lefebvre had a different view of the new rite of ordination in 1988, than in 1983.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 11:32:19 AM »
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  • The SSPX does not conditionally ordain any Novus Ordo priests anymore, whereas before they conditionally ordained all of them. So, where the rubber meets the road, where it counts, they have changed completely.
    That's not so LT. I'm not sure where that idea even comes from but the SSPX never conditionally ordained all NO priests as if they were all automatically invalid, because they always believed the NO ordinations to be valid as long as the new rite was followed. If nothing else, they have been absolutely consistent about this since the SSPX began. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse