Author Topic: Only Catholics are saved?  (Read 1344 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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Only Catholics are saved?
« on: May 31, 2015, 08:46:39 PM »
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  • I recently subscribed to Bishop Williamson's "Eleison Comments" and was quite surprised by his most recent commentary (emphasis mine):

    Quote
    Catholics, do not be narrow. Our Lord said That sheep outside his fold have him as head.


    (Note that the above seems like something Pope Francis would say!!)

    But, let's consider this in light of Cantate Domino from the Council of Florence:

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    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."


    Note that the Council talks about an "ecclesiastical unity" and not a "spiritual unity", a "unity of charity," a "unity of Sacraments" or an "unity of faith," etc., but rather an ecclesiastical unity, which implies, clearly, a unity of Church governance, hence, law.  Clearly, anyone outside of this unity cannot and will not be saved.

    P.S.  Bishop Williamson's article can be accessed in its entirety here:

    http://stmarcelinitiative.com/eleison-comments/?lang=en

    Offline Cantarella

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #1 on: May 31, 2015, 08:58:54 PM »
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  • This unity of the Ecclesiastical Body infallibly declared as necessary for salvation in Cantate Domino is always determined by three elements: Profession of the same Faith, reception of the sacraments dispensed by the Church, and personal submission to the Roman Pontiff.  If one of these elements is missing then there is no real unity of Ecclesiastical Body. God has revealed that if someone is not part of such unity, then he cannot be saved.  Furthermore, this Ecclesiastical Body must be visible. It cannot be invisible.

    Quote from: Fr. Feeney

    The mystery of the Incarnation is now the signature of God’s dealings with man. Everything in the true Faith comes to us in visible, tangible, flesh-and-blood terms. Authentic Christianity is incarnational.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline clare

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 05:22:14 AM »
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  • I was having a scout around Cathinfo the other day, and I came across an old post which (I thought) made an interesting point about the wording in that Cantate Domino passage:
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    ... none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her.


    [J]oined with (or joined to) isn't as clear cut as "unless... they become members of Her" would be. Perhaps it allows for implicit BOD.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 08:41:29 AM »
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  • That phrase hearkens back to something St. Augustine wrote (which is also widely misinterpreted).  But the meaning is not that they can be saved without becoming Catholic but that they are among the elect and on a trajectory towards becoming Catholic while at the same time there are those who are Catholic that are not among the elect.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 08:48:49 AM »
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  • I presume that Bishop Williamson is referring to:

    Quote from: Gospel of St. John 10:15
    And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.


    Nowhere does Our Lord state that He is CURRENTLY their head (aka "shepherd") but that He WILL be.  He says that these "sheep" that He "has" are in a state where he MUST yet BRING them (into the fold) and that they SHALL (future) hear his voice.  Which proves my interpretation of this passage rather than Bishop Williamson's.  These other sheep of this fold (being of the elect) shall at some point hear His voice and will be "brought" into the fold so that they WILL become part of the one fold with the one shepherd.

    So Bishop Williamson comes across as a Protestant quoting (partial) Scripture out of context to suit his own agenda.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 08:51:52 AM »
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  • Another common interpretation of this passage is that it refers to the Gentiles vs. Jews ("this fold") who will be gathered into the ONE fold (which includes both Gentiles and Jews).

    Offline Cantarella

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #6 on: June 01, 2015, 01:44:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    I was having a scout around Cathinfo the other day, and I came across an old post which (I thought) made an interesting point about the wording in that Cantate Domino passage:
    Quote
    ... none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her.


    [J]oined with (or joined to) isn't as clear cut as "unless... they become members of Her" would be. Perhaps it allows for implicit BOD.


    Similar to the Modernist interpretation of "Outside the Church there is no Salvation":

    Here is what progressivist theology (even professed by right wing liberals in traditionalist garb) says:

    * That it all depends on what you mean by the Church.

    * That it all depends on what you mean by outside .

    Basically they all make the distinction, as if it was ever possible, of explicitly belonging to the Church vs. implicitly belonging to the Church. The irremediable result is not the unity of the Ecclesiastical Body but two separate churches, one visible and the other one invisible. If the EENS dogma is not protected from this modernist error of relativistic semantics, then no dogma ever is or will be.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Matto

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 02:06:08 PM »
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  • I get sick of the fact that most traditional Catholics, even the better ones, don't even believe in the Athanasian Creed. And when you bring that up they lie and say they do believe in it.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..


    Offline JPaul

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    Only Catholics are saved?
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 08:56:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I presume that Bishop Williamson is referring to:

    Quote from: Gospel of St. John 10:15
    And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.


    Nowhere does Our Lord state that He is CURRENTLY their head (aka "shepherd") but that He WILL be.  He says that these "sheep" that He "has" are in a state where he MUST yet BRING them (into the fold) and that they SHALL (future) hear his voice.  Which proves my interpretation of this passage rather than Bishop Williamson's.  These other sheep of this fold (being of the elect) shall at some point hear His voice and will be "brought" into the fold so that they WILL become part of the one fold with the one shepherd.

    So Bishop Williamson comes across as a Protestant quoting (partial) Scripture out of context to suit his own agenda.


    Why introduce such a confusing allusion to already uncertain souls when today, of all times, souls need unfettered certitude and solidity in doctrine and dogma?

    In modern parlance, we have "hey lighten up you guys".....we're not the only ones going to heaven................. :facepalm:


     

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