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Author Topic: Source Lists for Baptism of Desire  (Read 2993 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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Source Lists for Baptism of Desire
« on: January 26, 2014, 11:17:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: Michael93
    If anybody knows of a catechism book I didn't include in the list, please let me know and I'll be happy to add it.


    Michael,
    I like your idea of compiling a bibliography. Here, arranged in chronological order, is my contribution to it. Not all of the sources that I have given are catechisms in the commonly-understood meaning of the term, but they are all grist to the mill. I've tried to leave out duplicates, but I may have missed a few.

    Catechisms [and other sources] that teach Baptism of Desire:

    1. Saint Augustine (354-430). The City Of God. Book XIII. In Philip Schaff (ed). A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church. Vol. II. St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine (Buffalo: Christian Literature Co, 1887). See: Chapter 7.

    2. Saint Augustine (354-430). On Baptism, Against The Donatists. Book IV. In Philip Schaff (ed). A Select Library of The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of The Christian Church. The Seven Books of Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, trans. by J. R. King. (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1887). See: Chapter 21.—29.

    3. Peter Lombard (c.1100-c.1160). Quatuor Libri Sententiarum. Book IV, Distinctions I-XXVI. In Elizabeth Frances Rogers. Peter Lombard and the Sacramental System (New York,1917).
    See: “Appendix: Translation of Book IV, Distinctions I-XXVI of the Quatuor Libri Sententiarum of Peter the Lombard.”  pp. 98-101.

    4. Pope Gregory IX. Decretalium Compilatio (1234). See: Lib.III, Tit. XLVIII, Cap.II.

    5. Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). Summa Theologica. See: IIIa q. 68 a. 2.

    6. English College of Rheims. The New Testament of Jesus Christ, Translated Faithfully into English (Rheims: John Fogny, 1582). See: Annotations pp. 222, 224.

    7. Laurence Vaux. A Catechisme or Christian Doctrine. 1583. (Manchester, England: The Chetham Society, 1885 reprint). See: p. 53.

    8. Joannes Chapeauville. Catechismi Romani Elucidatio Scholastica, (Leodii: Henricus Hovius, 1600). See: p. 235.

    9. François Aimé Pouget. Instructions générales en forme de catéchisme (Paris: Guillaume Vandive, 1706).
    Imprimatur: Charles-Joachim Colbert, Evêque de Montpellier. 2 June 1701.
    See: Part 3 (De la grace), Sec.1, Ch. 2 (Du Baptême) p. 14.

    10. Pierre Collot. Doctrinal and scriptural catechism, or, Instructions on the principal truths of the Christian religion, trans. by J. Sadlier. (New York: D. & J. Sadlier, 1862).
    With the approbation of the Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D.,  Archbishop of New York.
    See: pp. 153-155.

    11. Richard Challoner (1691-1781). The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church. (Baltimore: John Murphy & Co, 1852). See: p. 18 f.

    12. Jean-Baptiste Lasausse. Explication du catéchisme a l'usage de toutes les églises de l'Empire Français. Cinquieme Edition. (Paris: H. Nicole, 1810)
    Approved by Jean-Baptiste Cardinal De Bellot, Archbishop of Paris. See p. 456.

    13. Claude Fleury, Abbot of Loc-Dieu, (1640-1723). Historical Catechism; containing a summary of the Sacred History and Christian Doctrine (Dublin: Richard Coyne, 1834). See pp. 209-210.

    14. Jean Gaume. Catechism of Perseverance, trans. by Rev. F. B. Jamison. Fiftieth Edition, revised and enlarged. (Boston: Thomas B. Noonan & Co, 1850)
    English translation published with the approbation of the Most Rev. Archbishop of Baltimore.
    Recommended by +Martin J., Bishop of Louisville; +Michael, Bishop of Mobile; +Anthony, Bishop of New Orleans; +John, Bishop of Galveston. See p.209.

    15. Anon. 1861. Manual of Instructions in Christian Doctrine. (London: Burns & Lambert, 1861) Imprimatur: +N. Card. Wiseman.  Westm. Aug. 1, 1861. See pp. 276-277.

    16. F. X. Weninger. A Manual  of the Catholic Religion for Catechists, Teachers and Self-Instruction, Sixth edition. (Cincinatti: JohnWalsh, 1867). See: p.246.

    17. Anon. (circa 1880) A Compendium of Catechetical Instruction, trans. by the Right Reverend Monsignor John Hagan (Dublin, 1910). See: pp.28, 52.

    18. Henry Taylor Cafferata. The Catechism Simply Explained. (1897) See: No 261.

    19. D. Chisholm. The Catechism in Examples. Vol. IV. Grace: The Sacraments, 3rd Edition. (London: Burns Oates & Washbourne, 1908) See: pp. 59-72.

    20. Joseph Pohle. The Sacraments : a Dogmatic Treatise, Volume I : 1. The Sacraments in General. 2. Baptism. 3. Confirmation. Authorized English version, based on the fifth German edition, with some abridgment and additional references by Arthur Preuss. (St. Louis MO: Herder, 1915) See: pp.243-253.

    21. O. R. Vassall-Phillips. Catholic Christianity or The Reasonableness of Our Religion, 2nd Edition. (London: Burns Oates & Washbourne, 1920) See: pp. 383-386.

    22. Peter Geiermann. A Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine. (St. Louis, MO: Herder Book Co, 1930) See: pp. 69-71.

    23. The Christian Brothers. A Companion to the Catechism Designed Chiefly for the Use of Catechists and the Heads of Families, Revised Edition. (Dublin: M.H.Gill & Son, 1938) See: p. 239.

    24. Leslie Rumble & Charles Mortimer Carty. Radio Replies, Third Volume. (St. Paul, MN: Radio Replies Press, 1938) See: No 778, p.184.

    25. Micheal A. McGuire. The New Baltimore Catechism and Mass, No 2 Official Revised Edition. (New York: Benziger Bros, 1953) See: pp. 141 f.

    26. Francis J. Ripley. This Is The Faith. (Billinge: Birchley Hall Press, 1960) See: pp. 216-218.

    27. N. G. M. Van Doornik, S. Jelsma, A.Van de Lisdonk. A Handbook of the Catholic Faith. (New York: Image Books, 1956) See: p. 261 f.

    28. Charles Hart. Student’s Catholic Doctrine. (London: Burns & Oates, 1961) See: p. 264.

    29. John Anthony O'Brien. The Faith of Millions: the Credentials of the Catholic Religion. (Huntingdon, IN: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Co, 1963, 1974) See: p. 154 f.


    Sunbeam,  

    What a great list!  Good work in compiling it.  Now, there are five lists of sources for Baptism of Desire that I am aware of.  It is very edifying to me to see so many Catholics care about the purity of Sacred Doctrine and stand strong against this modern heresy, which attacks the Church's teaching on Baptism of Desire and Blood.

    I am moving this to another thread to make it easier for Catholics to find the collection of source lists.

    The Mater Dei Seminary list: HERE

    The list posted by Joe Cupertino on the Bellarmine Forums:  HERE

    The list complied by Baptism of Desire.com:  HERE

    The List of Catechisms that teach Baptism of Desire complied by Michael93:  HERE

    Your list above, which should actually be its own thread to make it easier to find.

    Some of these lists contain duplicates, but these list are only the beginning.  There are so many sources teaching Baptism of Desire that it would take months to docuмent them all.

    Baptism of Desire has been taught and believed always and everywhere.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Source Lists for Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 07:44:51 AM »
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  • For those who believe no proof is necessary.  For those who do not believe no proof will suffice.  The good-willed not convinced already should be convinced now.  For certainly as their state in life permits they will read the links.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Sunbeam

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    Source Lists for Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 11:25:48 AM »
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  • Ambrose,

    Thank you for your kind remark, and thank you for the commendable patience and charity that you have shown on this forum. It is a good example to all who post here.

    Here’s another addition to the list:

    Sylvester Joseph Hunter. Outlines of Dogmatic Theology, Vol.III. (London: Longmans, Green & Co, 1896), pp.243-248. Imprimatur: Herbert Cardinal Vaughan, Archbishop of Westminster. 13 July 1894.

    ...and here, for the doubters, are the relevant pages:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Source Lists for Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 03:31:30 PM »
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  • You all missed one.

    Can anyone give me a reason why no one has included the latest Conciliar Catechism in their list?

    Quote

    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 03:44:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    For those who believe no proof is necessary.


    For heretics who deny the dogma No Salvation Outside the Church, any proof will do.

    Your incessant creation of new spam threads to promote your heresy simply demonstrates a bad conscience on your part.


    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 04:10:40 PM »
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  • Interesting list in that it shows exactly ONE Church Father in the list ... a Church Father who, ironically, later reconsidered and rejected BoD.

    And of course, you selectively cited the Church Father while failing to cite the FOUR Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECT BOD ... and of course fail to mention the fact that rest of the Church Fathers are completely silent on the matter.

    Your selective citations of the Patristics just shows your bad will.  You're not even honest at a basic level.



    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 04:55:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    For those who believe no proof is necessary.


    For heretics who deny the dogma No Salvation Outside the Church, any proof will do.

    Your incessant creation of new spam threads to promote your heresy simply demonstrates a bad conscience on your part.


    Then your position is no different than that of Ibranyi and Sparks, namely the heretical idea that the Church has taught and promoted errors and heresies for many centuries.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 05:13:22 PM »
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  • .

    There appears to be no shortage of heretics and theological malefactors who are entirely on board with BoD.  

    Can anyone find a Modernist who does not side with the BoD-ers?  Oh, BTW, not taking sides with BoD-ers can't be construed alone, as defining someone's Modernism.  That would be circular reasoning, and therefore invalid.

    How about Pierre Teilhard de Chardin?  Don't you like to know you're on his side of this issue?  

    Or Alfred Loisy?

    Or Karl Rahner?

    Or Annibale Bugnini?

    Or Edward Schillebeeckx?

    Sounds like good company, no?


    Quote
    Baptism of Desire has been taught and believed always and everywhere.


    That was a quote from whom, Karl Rahner?   HAHAHAHAHA

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 05:23:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    There appears to be no shortage of heretics and theological malefactors who are entirely on board with BoD.  

    Can anyone find a Modernist who does not side with the BoD-ers?  Oh, BTW, not taking sides with BoD-ers can't be construed alone, as defining someone's Modernism.  That would be circular reasoning, and therefore invalid.

    How about Pierre Teilhard de Chardin?  Don't you like to know you're on his side of this issue?  

    Or Alfred Loisy?

    Or Karl Rahner?

    Or Annibale Bugnini?

    Or Edward Schillebeeckx?

    Sounds like good company, no?


    Quote
    Baptism of Desire has been taught and believed always and everywhere.


    That was a quote from whom, Karl Rahner?   HAHAHAHAHA

    .


    Actually, that may as well have been a quote from all the conciliar popes, clergy, hierarchy, nuns, theologians, canon lawyers, and etc, and on and etc and on ......



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 06:06:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: [b
    Stubborn[/b]]You all missed one.

    Can anyone give me a reason why no one has included the latest Conciliar Catechism in their list?


    Yes. It should be obvious.
    The catechisms cited concern the teaching of the Catholic Church, NOT the Conciliar Church.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 06:15:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: [b
    Ladislaus[/b]]Interesting list in that it shows exactly ONE Church Father in the list ... a Church Father who, ironically, later reconsidered and rejected BoD.

    And of course, you selectively cited the Church Father while failing to cite the FOUR Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECT BOD ... and of course fail to mention the fact that rest of the Church Fathers are completely silent on the matter.

    Your selective citations of the Patristics just shows your bad will. You're not even honest at a basic level.


    Instead of trying to derail this thread why don’t you have the honesty to admit that you cannot find an approved catechism wherein the Church explicitly rejects the teaching of Baptism of Desire?


    Offline Alcuin

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    « Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 08:09:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: [b
    Ladislaus[/b]]Interesting list in that it shows exactly ONE Church Father in the list ... a Church Father who, ironically, later reconsidered and rejected BoD.

    And of course, you selectively cited the Church Father while failing to cite the FOUR Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECT BOD ... and of course fail to mention the fact that rest of the Church Fathers are completely silent on the matter.

    Your selective citations of the Patristics just shows your bad will. You're not even honest at a basic level.


    Instead of trying to derail this thread why don’t you have the honesty to admit that you cannot find an approved catechism wherein the Church explicitly rejects the teaching of Baptism of Desire?


    Ladislaus does not strictly speaking have a problem with BoD as such. But he does have an issue with the FoD that is professed by most Trads. The Cushingites and Rahnerites are very active on this Forum.

    Offline Mabel

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    « Reply #12 on: January 29, 2014, 09:43:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote from: [b
    Ladislaus[/b]]Interesting list in that it shows exactly ONE Church Father in the list ... a Church Father who, ironically, later reconsidered and rejected BoD.

    And of course, you selectively cited the Church Father while failing to cite the FOUR Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECT BOD ... and of course fail to mention the fact that rest of the Church Fathers are completely silent on the matter.

    Your selective citations of the Patristics just shows your bad will. You're not even honest at a basic level.


    Instead of trying to derail this thread why don’t you have the honesty to admit that you cannot find an approved catechism wherein the Church explicitly rejects the teaching of Baptism of Desire?


    Ladislaus does not strictly speaking have a problem with BoD as such. But he does have an issue with the FoD that is professed by most Trads. The Cushingites and Rahnerites are very active on this Forum.


    I haven't come across a single thread where anyone has stated their support, admiration, or whatever, for Cushing or Rahner. Can you quote another poster who specifically says they agree with these men, mentions the point of agreement by name and can you quote whatever it is that they are saying they agree with, in context?

     I think there are more straw men on this forum than Cushing and Rahner supporters.

    Offline Thurifer

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    « Reply #13 on: January 29, 2014, 10:40:43 PM »
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  • Quote

    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.


    This one is really weak. It wiggles more than Jell-O.

    I guess I'm really dumb and actually I'm quite sure I should not be venturing into these waters, no pun intended.

    However, if any of you experts would be so kind perhaps you can firm this up for me.

    Since when has the Church been in the business of assuring salvation to anyone outside of canonized Saints?

    What is the definition for repentance? I'm assuming this is a repentance that does not include the Sacrament of Penance. I could go on and on here, but let's just picture an 18 year old who doesn't even have a clue about what constitutes sin and just joined the RCIA program because a friend convinced him or her to join without giving a whole lot of thought to the matter.

    Charity is pretty understandable. But what is charity without works? Are we ditching that one too. As it is written in the Gospel of St. Luke:

    Quote
    Let your loins be girt, and lamps burning in your hands.


    Read the sermon by Saint Gregory in the Common of Confessors in the Breviary. There are so many Confessors in the Liturgical Year that this one has been drilled in my head.

    St. Gregory said,

    Quote
    The Lord saith: Let your loins be girded about.  We gird our loins about when by continency we master the lustful inclination of the flesh.  But it is of small profit to abstain from evil unless we also strive right earnestly to do good works.  Therefore the Lord added that we should keep our lights burning, that is, by good works should give a good example to our neighbour; concerning which the Lord saith: Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


    Certainly the Apostle talks about Faith being dead without Works. Of course he also says that Faith and Works are dead without Charity. With Charity being most important. But again, Charity like Repentance, is not sufficiently defined.

    Isn't Baptism only a means to Salvation that really only wipes away Original Sin and results in Justification? And if that is true, why is there such a concept as Baptism of Desire in the first place? The definition itself is lacking and seems to be used in a way that really means something quite different and that would be using the words 'Baptism of Desire' to truly mean Salvation of Desire.

    Of course this definition is completely inadequate. However, it does use Church of Nice speak to give the impression that one of the best possible statuses to insure eternity in Heaven is to be a Catechumen who dies immediately following registration in some modernist RCIA class.

    And as I pointed out it denies the necessity of every Sacrament the Church dispenses; Baptism, Penance, Eucharist, and possibly marriage in the case of those seeking Baptism after a marriage that is not recognized.

    Silly me, I seem to be way too worried about maintaining Final Perseverance in the Holy Catholic Faith and pray that I have a death bed to partake of the Sacraments and have Last Rites.

    The Feeneyites are right. It gets dicey around Baptism with Blood. And it's a damn shame they couldn't finesse their position to keep doing the works they were doing in converting Harvard elites.

    Like I always said, life isn't fair and if anyone of us dies with a mortal sin on our soul we don't make it. We are owed nothing, even though we have been given everything. This line from the Catechism sounds exactly like Father Baron saying we can have a reasonable hope that no one goes to Hell.


    Offline Michael93

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    « Reply #14 on: January 29, 2014, 11:39:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Interesting list in that it shows exactly ONE Church Father in the list ... a Church Father who, ironically, later reconsidered and rejected BoD.

    And of course, you selectively cited the Church Father while failing to cite the FOUR Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECT BOD ... and of course fail to mention the fact that rest of the Church Fathers are completely silent on the matter.

    Your selective citations of the Patristics just shows your bad will.  You're not even honest at a basic level.




    Catholics don’t need to read the Church Fathers in order to know what the Church teaches. Even if a Church Father did reject baptism of desire, it doesn’t matter now. It’s a part of the universal ordinary magisterium. Anyway, every source I’ve found that talks about baptism of desire and the Fathers say they taught it. For example, Fr. Michael Mϋller:

    “Although it be true that the fathers of the Church have believed and taught that the baptism of desire may supply the baptism of water, yet this doctrine, as St. Augustine observes, should not make any one delay ordinary baptism when he is able to receive it; for such a delay of baptism is always attended with great danger of salvation.”

    Grace and the Sacraments (Imprimatur, 1882).