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Author Topic: Sophistry  (Read 6705 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Sophistry
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2010, 11:27:06 AM »
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  • Raoul ---> said <<< An actual Americanist is someone who thinks all religions are more or less roads to heaven.  An implied Americanist is someone who thinks the system of government we have in the U.S., one that places erroneous, false religions on a par with the true religion, is the best form of government.  You apparently don't want Christ to rule over nations, you think everyone should be free to do what they want, and of course that is what leads to rampant immorality and heresy.  You don't say that in so many words, but how else am I to take it when you praise our form of government as "the best"?  "Best" means "better than the rest," and you are saying that you prefer our government to Catholic governments>>>>

    With all due respect Raoul it would be a good practice for you to start using that quote feature.  I think you would gain a lot more respect.

      In defense of Trinity, you misunderstand, and I know that you know there is no such a thing as a Catholic government today, which is what she was answering about; what we have TODAY I know that you know that because you are an intelligent person.
     
    Next you accuse me of the same, of which I have never said. Therefore I repeat, PLEASE  use the quote feature and I will do the same when addressing you in the future.
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    Belloc,  never fear about all your ignores, think about the over 900 members here that love to read and laugh at you!  
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    Offline Caminus

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #16 on: July 13, 2010, 11:32:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    When you start up with your sophistries again, I will be sure to point them out as they occur.  Yesterday with Cecilia you picked up with your favorite, that she was not making proper distinctions.  Your distinctions have a way of exonerating anti-Christs, or attempting to.  I will admit there are times when I will see a heresy where there isn't one, and I do appreciate correction.  But you bend over backwards to defend EVERYTHING your pet anti-Popes do and say.  I knew there was something wrong from the beginning when you downplayed, if not pooh-poohed, the entire idea of Freemasons in the Church, as if it were irrelevant.


    She wasn't making proper distinctions or rather she was making a false inference and then building an entire theory on it.  That is a serious mistake and it is intellectually dishonest to cover up that fact because the conclusion reached just happens to coincide with our opinions.  If an SSPX priest were to make a false statement, they would be subject to correction as well.  This applies to all Catholics of all time.  I cannot understand why you would allow this to happen simply because someone agrees with you on something else.    

    This pretended dogmatic certitude regarding official vacancy has gotten you all twisted up.  It's not real certitude, rather it is akin to an emotional attachment to an idea, like that someone convincing themselves that a particular sporting team is the best in the game and that no one will convince them otherwise.  

    So when someone comes along and reminds you of all of the demands in making such a judgment, you cast them off as merely abetting heretics.  The whole procedure just begs the question.  This in turn informs your judgment regarding my observations.  

    I don't recall "downplaying" Masons in the Church.  Who would ever do such a thing?  It is a serious problem that has evident consequences.  But when the question devolves into the concrete, where a particular determination is made regarding who may or may not be a Mason, you seem to think that anyone who reserves judgment is thereby "downplaying" the presence of Masons in the Church.  Thus you confuse the universal with the particular and simply beg the question.  The matter could be resolved by realizing this distinction is necessary, that real evidence is the sole criterion of judgment, that simply because two men disagree on a concrete question, that doesn't imply they disagree regarding principles or premises.  It comes down to a particular determination of the principles.  

    Quote
    One feature of sophistry is its convoluted and tortured logic.  You try to make yourself sound like Garrigou-Lagrange, but the science is not there, it's all an act.  You are self-learned and have an imperfect grasp of theological concepts.  That's okay, so do I -- the difference is that I admit it.  You never say simply what can be said in a mind-clouding and convoluted way, that is long on rhetoric but often bereft of substance.


    Here you continue with vague and imprecise commentary on my supposed "convoluted logic."  You even offer a false motive of merely trying to sound like a great theologian without offering anything of substance.  Where is the evidence for this other than your mere saying so?  Can you demonstrate my inferior, as opposed to your superior, grasp of theological science?  I am the one who constantly calls you to inform yourself with real substance, not relying on assumptions or sensationalism.  I think the fact that you can't see any substance in what I say is because you have an erroneous notion of what precisely entails substance to begin with.  You have very little tolerance for the intricate reasoning that accompanies theological science, which is why you hold Pius XII as suspect.  Thus, the problem is reduced, rather, to your own taste.  Composing pious or devotional writings, or those dealing with the interior life, are of a different nature than that which constitutes theological science.  

    And who do you study?  Or are you one of those "creative" Catholics who thinks they can assimilate theological knowledge through their own unaided efforts?    

    Quote
    Someone more innocent than myself might mistakenly believe you know what you're talking about.  Well, this habit of speaking in inflated and twisted language to intimidate sheep who are afraid to go against someone they think knows better than they do is a habit of... Guess who?  That's right, it is the exact same bullying, pseudo-intellectual routine of the man you love to defend, Joseph Ratzinger.  That, on top of the fact that you clearly bear a loathing for sedevacantists, one that you think justifies you hissing at them like a serpent, makes you a particularly unpleasant character.
     

    This comes from someone who shoots off at the mouth anything which pops into mind; from one who never produces any theological evidence, any positive authority, while formulating opinions.  You are long on generalized accusations, but short on evidence.  Your entire commentary betrays rather your fideistic disdain for Thomistic theology and philosophy, even for being reminded of basic moral duties.  

    And you make the false claim yet again, that I defend Benedict simply because I find the grounds for criticism to be utterly lacking and deficient.  There's a case to be made for sedevacantism, the problem is that you, others here and guys like the Dimonds don't do it.  So don't confuse criticism of your bad arguments with somehow defending Benedict.  This is yet another example of your many fallacies which infuse your messages.  

    Quote
    Why do you think you have this many ignores?  Lots of people on this board are SSPX, but even they won't defend you.  


    This is yet another fallacy, a very poor construct indeed, full of your own assumptions.  Can I help it if people do not tolerate controversy well?  That adults can act like children when disagreements arise?  You again seem to put alot of stock in this ignore function.  Has it become for you a mark of truth?  A democratic consensus?  You assume that the ignorer is righteous while the ignoree must be horribly mistaken?  I have little tolerance for this ridiculous fabrication.  

    You had your chance to expose my alleged sophistry.  Not only did you fail in demonstrating any, you offered up several of your own.  How ironic is that?


    Offline Trinity

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 11:32:55 AM »
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  • So C.M.M.M.'s way is the best!   :roll-laugh2:
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 11:34:16 AM »
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  • Dawn,  with all due respect, I don't see Ceceila post here?

                           ?
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    Offline Caminus

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 11:39:45 AM »
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  • Quote
    There's the irony, because you just bore false witness against me by saying that I bore false witness.  You accuse someone pretty lightly of being non-Catholic and breaking commandments...


    Dawn said to Caminus:

    Quote
    You are a mean viscous arrogant heretic. You are the most unchivalrous man I have ever had the chance to know.




    Offline Dawn

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 11:40:30 AM »
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  • This thread is in direct relation to what Caminus posted yesterday and what Raoul and I said in return. Still what is your position as far as what Cecilia said in the other thread that this ties into?

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 11:50:23 AM »
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  • Dawn, please don't be so judgemental;  I am not a mind reader, and was not here yesterday.  Please refer to the thread PLEASE SHARE, and while there share something positive for a change.  

    I'll wait   :popcorn:
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    Offline Dawn

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    « Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 11:52:15 AM »
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  • Well then I guess you should read the other thread and not steop into something that was not directed to you. Enjoy your popcorn


    Offline Trinity

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 11:58:52 AM »
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  • Caminus said:
    Your entire commentary betrays rather your fideistic disdain for Thomistic theology and philosophy, even for being reminded of basic moral duties.  


    Basic moral duty to treat all as if they were Jesus.

    Since Raoul believes in being governed by Jesus, how does he explain his behavior toward others?

    Since I have placed myself under the government of Jesus, how does he explain my purported refusal to want this country placed under the government of Jesus?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #24 on: July 13, 2010, 12:03:59 PM »
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  • Caminus said:
    Quote
    Dawn said to Caminus:

    Quote:
    You are a mean viscous arrogant heretic. You are the most unchivalrous man I have ever had the chance to know.


    You stoke others up by calling them liars and filthy and vicious, and then when they reach boiling point and turn it back on you, you bat your big eyes.  You're Mr. Innocent.  

    You know, when I was going over-the-top and was a home-aloner and people corrected me, I actually worked to change, to become more charitable and to look at every side.  I began to realize not everyone in the Novus Ordo or SSPX was damned, heh heh.  

    Maybe you are doing that; this is the first time I've heard you admit that sedevacantism might have some merit.  But every time I see hope for you, and try to be more friendly, I always end up getting burned.  It's becoming like the boy who cried wolf.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Dawn

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    « Reply #25 on: July 13, 2010, 12:11:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Caminus said:
    Quote
    Dawn said to Caminus:

    Quote:
    You are a mean viscous arrogant heretic. You are the most unchivalrous man I have ever had the chance to know.


    You stoke others up by calling them liars and filthy and vicious, and then when they reach boiling point and turn it back on you, you bat your big eyes.  You're Mr. Innocent.  

    You know, when I was going over-the-top and was a home-aloner and people corrected me, I actually worked to change, to become more charitable and to look at every side.  I began to realize not everyone in the Novus Ordo or SSPX was damned, heh heh.  

    Maybe you are doing that; this is the first time I've heard you admit that sedevacantism might have some merit.  But every time I see hope for you, and try to be more friendly, I always end up getting burned.  It's becoming like the boy who cried wolf.


    In that case Trinity was right to court Caminus in the attacks against us. Myrna and Trinity play that game too well. Attack and then pull back behind the "who? little ole me, well fiddle-dee-dee, I can not be behind those attacks looky at my thread on the wonders of the Sunday sermons of the CMRI.
    The ignore works well for me with Caminus. And, I guess it will do just as well against the Apostles of luv and warm and fuzzy feelings.


    Offline Belloc

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    Sophistry
    « Reply #26 on: July 13, 2010, 12:16:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Caminus said:
    Quote
    Dawn said to Caminus:

    Quote:
    You are a mean viscous arrogant heretic. You are the most unchivalrous man I have ever had the chance to know.


    You stoke others up by calling them liars and filthy and vicious, and then when they reach boiling point and turn it back on you, you bat your big eyes.  You're Mr. Innocent.  

    You know, when I was going over-the-top and was a home-aloner and people corrected me, I actually worked to change, to become more charitable and to look at every side.  I began to realize not everyone in the Novus Ordo or SSPX was damned, heh heh.  

    Maybe you are doing that; this is the first time I've heard you admit that sedevacantism might have some merit.  But every time I see hope for you, and try to be more friendly, I always end up getting burned.  It's becoming like the boy who cried wolf.


    would compliment you Mike, you did read, listen and have made positive changes I see in past yr or so....

    SV does have have merit, but for me, not at this time, ...yet.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Trinity

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    « Reply #27 on: July 13, 2010, 12:17:05 PM »
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  • Still waiting, Myrna?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Dawn

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    « Reply #28 on: July 13, 2010, 12:22:06 PM »
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  • ?

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #29 on: July 13, 2010, 12:39:22 PM »
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  • Caminus said:
    Quote
    Here you continue with vague and imprecise commentary on my supposed "convoluted logic."  You even offer a false motive of merely trying to sound like a great theologian without offering anything of substance.  Where is the evidence for this other than your mere saying so
    ?

    Pick practically any sentence from any post... How about this whopper from your last one --

    Caminus said:
    Quote
    "You have very little tolerance for the intricate reasoning that accompanies theological science, which is why you hold Pius XII as suspect."


    Pure Ratzinger.  The first falsehood is that I have little tolerance for intricate reasoning.  Just because I say yours is phony is different from not appreciating "intricate reasoning."  In your egomania you apparently put yourself on the same footing as St. Thomas, but you are not, you are an amateur like me.  Except your ambition is to become a theologian while my skills are more of a rhetorical nature.  I am not interested in getting bogged down in theological debates, though they can be fun, when more important debates are pressing.  The Popes themselves don't often quote huge hunks of theology.  

    Then after having falsely tried to establish what you pretend to be my contempt for intellectuals -- if you haven't noticed, I am an intellectual, though I am not or at least not yet anything resembling a theologian -- you move onto Pius XII.  You use your false premise to draw a false conclusion; that I don't understand Pius XII because I am a crude sledgehammer and he is a glorious Aquinas.  

    But the questions I raise about Pius XII have to do with specific actions he took, like starting a Commission for Liturgical Reform and appointing Bugnini at the head of it, changing the Holy Week rites, changing the Psalter to a classical i.e. PAGAN Latin, introducing NFP and teaching it in a vague and confusing way, and all of this right before Vatican II -- and I'm supposed to believe he was a conservative who stood against the tide?  Well, I don't.  

    Then there are his words.  Like his Christmas Message of 1944:

    Quote
    1. Having passed, as it has, through an ocean of blood and tears in a form perhaps never experienced in past ages, it has lived through the indescribable atrocities with an intensity such that the recollection of so many horrors must remain stamped in its memory, and even in the deepest recesses of its soul, like a picture of a hell against which anyone who cherishes a sense of humanity desires more than anything else to close the door forever.

    FORMATION OF A COMMON MEANS TO MAINTAIN PEACE

    62. The decisions already published by international commissions permit one to conclude that an essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression."


    This speaks for itself.  Pius XII, who lived in the time of the ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic democracies -- which as a skilled diplomat and politician he knew very well, thank you -- calls for an international organ a la the future UN, which of course would be ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic also, to "smother in its germinal state any threat" of war.  In other words, war is peace.  This is simply flat-out communism, it is Big Brother, it is the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.   He is championing it.  

    You have nothing to say against this because the evidence is damning, and you know it.  So you try to turn my questions about Pius XII into some proof of my lesser theological fluidity, while throwing out all kinds of junk about my "fideism"!
    AND THAT MY MAN IS SOPHISTRY.

    Just because I am a new Catholic that has not yet had the time to omnivorously study theology -- though I hope to one day -- does not mean I disdain "intricacy."  That is why I am able to untangle yours for the garbage it is, because I do have a mind that can work through convoluted arguments.  I know the difference between St. Thomas and Ratzinger, okay?  St. Thomas is difficult but rewarding and his thought blossoms for those who take the time to study it; Ratzinger is a fraud, a phony, a Meister Eckhart pseudo-mystic trussed-up with lots of concepts from Contintental philosophy.  He's also a heretic and commits the acts of an apostate.

    Almost everything you say is lost in some fog of nonexistent distinctions... Okay, I am general and I don't quote theologians enough.  I give you that one.  I've also been Catholic for just over a year.  What I do is sift information, I read through Bellarmine Forums, through French forums, and I do read many other people who quote the theologians.  I stand on the shoulders of those giants, because in the short time I have to figure out where to go to church and which side is right, I will take advantage of those who have done years of research and work.  I then, like a judge, throw my weight on the sedevacantist side, because they have the most convincing arguments.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.