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Author Topic: someone please explain difference between sedavacantist and traditionalist (for  (Read 2042 times)

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Offline rosary93

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someone please explain difference between sedavacantist and traditionalist (for all us morons)

stupid me, i thought they were about the same thing


Offline Binechi

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What is Sedevacantism?

Sedevacantism comes from the Latin sede vacante, which means “seat vacant.” It is the position held by traditional Catholics who claim that the Papal Seat, the Holy See, has been

vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958. Sedevacantists believe that the subsequent claimants to the papal office — John XXIII (1958–1963), Paul VI (1963–1978), John Paul I

(1978), John Paul II (1978–2005) and Benedict XVI (since 2005) — have been neither true Catholics nor true, legitimate popes. Sedevacantism owes its origins to the rejection of the

theological and disciplinary changes implemented following the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965). Sedevacantists reject this Council and all its decrees, most notably its docuмents

on ecuмenism and religious liberty, which contradicts the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church and denies the unique mission of Catholicism as the one true religion, outside of

which there is no salvation. Sedevacantists also reject the New Mass of Paul VI, promulgated on 3 April 1969, as invalid since it has changed the words of consecration and deviated

from the tradition of the Church.


Offline Binechi

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How s that Rosmary ?     That should give you something to think about  :incense:

Offline LaramieHirsch

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    • h
Traditionalist is a spectrum.  It is not a description of any one particular group.  

Traditionalist Catholicism is on the Right side of the Catholic world.  

Moving from the left-wing to right-wing of the spectrum, you have the following brands (that I'm most familiar with) in the Traditionalist world:

1. Novus Ordo Catholics who are jaded about the current modernist conditions of the Catholic Church, and half-heartedly pine for "the good old days."
2. Catholics who attend diocesan Tridentine Latin Mass.
3. Catholics who attend the Rome-approved FSSP (Fraternal Society of Saint Peter), where they hear Latin Mass, but are in danger of receiving little bits of poisonous modernist teaching.
4. Catholics who attend the non-Rome approved SSPX (Society of Saint Pius X), which exists thanks to a loophole, though is constantly blackballed by Rome.  The SSPX has "kept the pilot light on" when it comes to Catholic Tradition, and it is solely thanks to their efforts that the Latin Mass has survived to this day.  They are ridiculed and derided by most Catholics who do not understand Traditionalism or the problems with Vatican II.  
5. Sedevacantists.  Residing on the far right of the spectrum, sedes believe that all of the popes since Vatican II were false.  

Again, this is the spectrum of Traditionalist Catholics going from Left to Right.  

I'm sure there's more I've left out.  But I don't have much time to type this reply.
.........................

Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

Offline TKGS

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Sedevacantists accept the truth that the See of Rome is currently vacant, that is, there is no valid reigning pope at this time.  I don't personally know of any sedevacantists who are not also traditional Catholics.

Traditional Catholics are Catholics who worship according to the traditional rites of the Church and believe the traditional doctrines of the Church.  Traditional Catholics recognize the truth that the New Mass, sacraments, and doctrines of the Conciliar Church are not Catholic.


Offline Mithrandylan

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Don't listen to these people.  Sedevacantists hide under people's beds and peek in through their windows.  They will take your women and children. 
.
Traditionalists, on the other hand, are in union with Pope Francis and put his picture up so they don't go to hell.
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:P
"Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

Offline roscoe

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someone please explain difference between sedavacantist and traditionalist (for all us morons)

stupid me, i thought they were about the same thing
:sleep: 
There is no such thing as a 'sedevacantist'...
There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

Offline Meg

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someone please explain difference between sedavacantist and traditionalist (for all us morons)

stupid me, i thought they were about the same thing

How did you arrive at the belief that they are the same thing?
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


Offline Binechi

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Answers to the Most Common Objections Against Sedevacantism


This article contains content used from authors: Brother Peter Dimond and Brother Michael Dimond of Most Holy Family Monastery / mostholyfamilymonastery.com

Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”1

There are many objections launched against the sedevacantist position – that is, the position expounded in this book according to which the Chair of St. Peter is vacant because the post- Vatican II “popes” are not true popes, but non-Catholic antipopes. We will now address all of the major objections that are launched against this position.

Objection 1): The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church, as Christ (Matthew 16). He said He would be with His Church till the end of the world (Matthew 28). What you are saying is contrary to the promises of Christ.

Answer: No, indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is. The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church. It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days. This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.
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St. Athanasius: “Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”
2

Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that   heretics are the gates of Hell   which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16!

Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “… we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)…”3

Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter… because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4

St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.)

Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell. Heretics are not members of the Church. That’s why a heretic could never be a pope. The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ. It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics.

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306: “Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church...”

There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes. Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines. This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church.

Offline BumphreyHogart

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Don't listen to these people.  Sedevacantists hide under people's beds and peek in through their windows.  They will take your women and children.  
.
Traditionalists, on the other hand, are in union with Pope Francis and put his picture up so they don't go to hell.
.
:P


Traditionalist is a general term for people who don't want the liturgical and doctrinal changes of Vatican II.

There are many gradations, or subsets, falling under this that general category. It doesn't mean they all are really traditionalists, but they profess to be....which is certainly a very good start.

And, yes, Mith has it right....display the picture and you won't go to hell, is a pretty good summation of the unconscionable R&R position. They would actually rather have Francis permanently frozen in ice (cryogenics), alive, and they would be happy to have "a pope" forever like that, out of the way, but still existing!


"there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

Offline Binechi

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Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell. Heretics are not members of the Church. That’s why a heretic could never be a pope. The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ. It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics.


Offline rosary93

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How s that Rosmary ?     That should give you something to think about  :incense:
you mean Rosary?
I already knew what a sedavacantist is
I just don't know how a traditionalist varies from that?

Offline rosary93

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1. Novus Ordo Catholics who are jaded about the current modernist conditions of the Catholic Church, and half-heartedly pine for "the good old days."
2. Catholics who attend diocesan Tridentine Latin Mass.
3. Catholics who attend the Rome-approved FSSP (Fraternal Society of Saint Peter), where they hear Latin Mass, but are in danger of receiving little bits of poisonous modernist teaching.
4. Catholics who attend the non-Rome approved SSPX (Society of Saint Pius X), which exists thanks to a loophole, though is constantly blackballed by Rome.  The SSPX has "kept the pilot light on" when it comes to Catholic Tradition, and it is solely thanks to their efforts that the Latin Mass has survived to this day.  They are ridiculed and derided by most Catholics who do not understand Traditionalism or the problems with Vatican II.  
5. Sedevacantists.  Residing on the far right of the spectrum, sedes believe that all of the popes since Vatican II were false.  

Again, this is the spectrum of Traditionalist Catholics going from Left to Right.  

I'm sure there's more I've left out.  But I don't have much time to type this reply.
I am somewhat a sede
i say somewhat b/c.. and i dont think many have figured this out so I am far from alone here, but, well, let me just do some thinking "out loud" here.. (thinking while typing.. what a concept!) LOL
I say some of the post V2 popes were false. I have not read anything by Pope JP II that sounds heretical (formally heretical), but then again, i have this vague memory of reading something he allegedly wrote and so... I wish I could remember what it was.. but anyway... Oh, i do recall something. It just popped into my head, probably thanks to the Man Upstairs. :)   
I remember he kissed the Koran!!!!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHH
and didn't he belive that all religions can lead to God? I believe so
OK, so here is where I am at.. I say they were all false after Pius XII
but Jesus promised that His CHurch would prevail over the very "gates of Hell" (mt 16:18 
so no pope can destroy the Church no matter how heretical he is. I have felt the Presence of Christ in the NO Churches. On the other hand, i have felt the tangible presence of the evil one as well. Does that mean much? I mean, Jesus has always been quite acquainted w/ the devil... Even so, you wouldn't expect to feel the presence of both while inside  THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!  Well, I myself didn't expect that... You?
 but it has happened & others say the same thing... So anyway, i am a little confused about how a heretical pope can even be legitimately called "Catholic" much less "pope"? I mean, my sense of logic tells me that if someone is not Catholic, he cannot be the pope. I mean when they are selecting a pope, they do not consult  Billy Graham or the Ayatollah of Iran... 
that may be coming down the pike soon, but for now... 
so if females cannot be priests much less pope
and protesters cannot be pope
how is it that a non-Christian can be pope? Oh, he calls himself Christian? Well, I sometimes like to fantasize and call myself a millionaire... but so far, that has not worked out too well for me..
 

Offline rosary93

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Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell. Heretics are not members of the Church. That’s why a heretic could never be a pope. The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ. It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics.
so we have a headless Church??  :(
that's scarier than a Scorcese movie

Offline rosary93

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How did you arrive at the belief that they are the same thing?
I wasn't thinking, that's how
it happens
not often but it happens. I mean I could have just thought about it and figured it out but for some reason, thinking about stuff in other than a superficial way was not on my brain's agenda that day... :)