Author Topic: Solemn Declaration Needed (Read 2630 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2013, 11:51:44 AM »

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

Cathedra said:
Quote
Well then, St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope St. Pius V, St. Alphonsus, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Robert Bellarmine, and pretty much all the Saints after the Council of Trent have all been heretics for teaching this heresy.

BOD is in the Roman Catechism, so you are saying the Church has been teaching a heresy to the entire Church for centuries.

Don't tell me "oh it's all good because it's not infallible".

All those saints and that catechism said that Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation but contradicted themselves on this point.
This shows they are not infallible.

Cathedra said:
Quote
The Council of Trent said "or the vow to receive baptism" justifies a man.

You're just repeating what the Dimonds say, it's so obvious.

Like them, you also dismiss the Ordinary Magisterium and think that, just because this hasn't been dogmatically or explicitly defined, you are free to reject it. You're not.

The Council of Trent did not say that.
The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible. Popes are not infallible all the time. Did you know that?

Also, so what if I use the quotes from the Dimond Brothers site. They post Dogmas and where to find them. Their material is like a handy tool against satan, and it's all in one site so I don't have to look around.

Cathedra said:
Quote
Did i say the miracle didn't take place? I said the MIRACLE happened probably because the person had no perfect contrition.

You just don't seem to get what i am telling you.

You obviously don't get what I'm telling you. I didn't say that you said the miracles didn't happen. I said that you explain them away. You totally distort the significance and meaning of why those miracles happened.
It's amusing (almost) how you just add your BOD nonsense to explain the miracles. If anything those miracles happened because the individuals had perfect contrition, not because they lacked it.
Think about it. If these pagans didn't have perfect contrition, why would God go to those lengths to save them? What would make them different from the other pagans that weren't miraculously baptized?

Cathedra said:
Quote
Quote
Isaac Jogues said:
You don't even believe in the Words of Christ.

Typical Dimond vocabulary.

And why do you say this anyways? Because i don't take John 3:5 literally, like a Protestant does?

This is very interesting. If you will notice, you have just denied dogma and are anathematized by the Catholic Church.

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra: “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”

If you do not take it literally, which you said you don't, then you are anathematized.
By the way, I don't know ANY protestants who take John 3:5 literally. Really?

I don't really need to say anything else to you.

Did they really not realize they were "contradicting" themselves as you say? Or perhaps, just perhaps, might you be missing something. Pretty large "coincidence that all those saints did not realize they were contradicting themselves. Even in the same paragraph sometimes.

Good thing they have bloggers like us to point it out huh?

Pardon the sarcasm, but I am trying to make what should have been already an obvious point.

poche · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2013, 05:39:10 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: poche
A person who suffers and dies for Christ goes to Heaven. If he was not baptized in water his baptism would be in blood. One of the companions of Sts Perpetua and Felicity is an example of just such a situation.

I would agree with this, however, with respect to the "examples," you're trying to "prove a negative" (that is, that someone was not sacramentally baptized) with respect to an omnipotent God. As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Granted, Sagan was an agnostic, and should have been open to the reality of God's existence if he had taken his own advice seriously, but that's another topic for another thread. Still, what Sagan said is true -- one cannot disprove the miraculous action of God in and within His own creation.

Yes, but the Catholic Church has recognized their being in Heaven for the past 1700 years.

Stubborn · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2013, 07:20:46 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: poche
A person who suffers and dies for Christ goes to Heaven. If he was not baptized in water his baptism would be in blood. One of the companions of Sts Perpetua and Felicity is an example of just such a situation.

I would agree with this, however, with respect to the "examples," you're trying to "prove a negative" (that is, that someone was not sacramentally baptized) with respect to an omnipotent God. As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Granted, Sagan was an agnostic, and should have been open to the reality of God's existence if he had taken his own advice seriously, but that's another topic for another thread. Still, what Sagan said is true -- one cannot disprove the miraculous action of God in and within His own creation.

Yes, but the Catholic Church has recognized their being in Heaven for the past 1700 years.

Fr. Wathen puts it like this:
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious women through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

It is impossible to prove that God did not grant the Sacrament of Baptism to her and all martyrs who died apparently without this Sacrament. If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2013, 06:07:54 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: poche
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: poche
A person who suffers and dies for Christ goes to Heaven. If he was not baptized in water his baptism would be in blood. One of the companions of Sts Perpetua and Felicity is an example of just such a situation.

I would agree with this, however, with respect to the "examples," you're trying to "prove a negative" (that is, that someone was not sacramentally baptized) with respect to an omnipotent God. As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Granted, Sagan was an agnostic, and should have been open to the reality of God's existence if he had taken his own advice seriously, but that's another topic for another thread. Still, what Sagan said is true -- one cannot disprove the miraculous action of God in and within His own creation.

Yes, but the Catholic Church has recognized their being in Heaven for the past 1700 years.

Fr. Wathen puts it like this:
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious women through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

It is impossible to prove that God did not grant the Sacrament of Baptism to her and all martyrs who died apparently without this Sacrament. If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Poor God can't cleanse the soul of Original Sin without the use of water. Wow, you can really learn alot on these forums.

Isaac Jogues · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2013, 07:11:55 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: poche
A person who suffers and dies for Christ goes to Heaven. If he was not baptized in water his baptism would be in blood. One of the companions of Sts Perpetua and Felicity is an example of just such a situation.

I would agree with this, however, with respect to the "examples," you're trying to "prove a negative" (that is, that someone was not sacramentally baptized) with respect to an omnipotent God. As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Granted, Sagan was an agnostic, and should have been open to the reality of God's existence if he had taken his own advice seriously, but that's another topic for another thread. Still, what Sagan said is true -- one cannot disprove the miraculous action of God in and within His own creation.

Yes, but the Catholic Church has recognized their being in Heaven for the past 1700 years.

Fr. Wathen puts it like this:
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious women through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

It is impossible to prove that God did not grant the Sacrament of Baptism to her and all martyrs who died apparently without this Sacrament. If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Poor God can't cleanse the soul of Original Sin without the use of water. Wow, you can really learn alot on these forums.

Saying things like this is irreverent and disrespectful to God. Your use of sarcasm and referencing God is horrible.

God has revealed, through the magisterium, how He cleanses the soul of original sin. Sacramental water Baptism.
Show a solemn magisterial pronouncement that teaches He removes original sin by any other means.
Here's a question. Where is the pronouncement that St. Thomas is a heretic for teaching that the Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived?
Just because a Saint was wrong about something, doesn't mean it will be corrected by a pope.
God allows these errors to arise in certain periods of Church History in the minds of men. This only shows that men are fallible and that the Infallible Magisterium is the source that we are to believe and defer to when there is a question of Doctrine.

Stubborn · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2013, 08:03:46 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Poor God can't cleanse the soul of Original Sin without the use of water. Wow, you can really learn alot on these forums.

Isaac Jogues said it.

LOT, you need to cease with this type of sarcasm toward God.
You are reminding me more and more of a poster, Vetus Ordo, who did the same type of thing as you are doing - he is now protestant. Prior to him mocking God, he was one of the most staunch and well read trads out there - do not fall into his same trap.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #21 on:** August 01, 2013, 06:47:17 AM »

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: poche
A person who suffers and dies for Christ goes to Heaven. If he was not baptized in water his baptism would be in blood. One of the companions of Sts Perpetua and Felicity is an example of just such a situation.

I would agree with this, however, with respect to the "examples," you're trying to "prove a negative" (that is, that someone was not sacramentally baptized) with respect to an omnipotent God. As the late Carl Sagan used to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Granted, Sagan was an agnostic, and should have been open to the reality of God's existence if he had taken his own advice seriously, but that's another topic for another thread. Still, what Sagan said is true -- one cannot disprove the miraculous action of God in and within His own creation.

Yes, but the Catholic Church has recognized their being in Heaven for the past 1700 years.

Fr. Wathen puts it like this:
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious women through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

It is impossible to prove that God did not grant the Sacrament of Baptism to her and all martyrs who died apparently without this Sacrament. If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Poor God can't cleanse the soul of Original Sin without the use of water. Wow, you can really learn alot on these forums.

Saying things like this is irreverent and disrespectful to God. Your use of sarcasm and referencing God is horrible.

God has revealed, through the magisterium, how He cleanses the soul of original sin. Sacramental water Baptism.
Show a solemn magisterial pronouncement that teaches He removes original sin by any other means.
Here's a question. Where is the pronouncement that St. Thomas is a heretic for teaching that the Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived?
Just because a Saint was wrong about something, doesn't mean it will be corrected by a pope.
God allows these errors to arise in certain periods of Church History in the minds of men. This only shows that men are fallible and that the Infallible Magisterium is the source that we are to believe and defer to when there is a question of Doctrine.

You miss the point evidently. Those who believe it is impossible for anyone to be saved without the use of water evidently put the power with the water instead of God. Also, and not incidentally they disagree with the infallible teaching of the ordinary magisterium. I boggles my mind how people on a traditional forum can do this without much resistance.

They are also the apparently most hateful and childish of those who brand themselves traditional Catholics following the Dimonds led as they thumb down papal quotes on a regular basis if it seems to disagree with their error or heresy. It disagrees with the infallible teaching having to do with the faith. At best it is a grievous error. If we had Popes from Pius XII until now it would have probably condemned as a heresy. Then lay folk could spend there time on more constructive things than defending the obvious against hateful self-proclaimed "traditional Catholics".

I do not label all Feeneyites this way, just many I have encountered. Jehanne is not hateful and engages in civil conversations. You seemed capable of civil conversations and probably are. Others just lurk and down-thumb like imbecilic morons. At least they serve some purpose.

Stubborn · « **Reply #22 on:** August 01, 2013, 08:04:16 AM »

Lover of Truth, why are you even Catholic if you think everyone can get to heaven without being Catholic? Why don't you just join the rest of the world and take the wide road into your eternity?

Do you suppose Our Lord founded His Church so people could enjoy it as an option?

You are so happy to reward heaven to people who reject the faith that you don't even stop to think about what you are posting.

The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport. - Fr. Wathen

SJB · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2013, 08:24:01 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Lover of Truth, why are you even Catholic if you think everyone can get to heaven without being Catholic? Why don't you just join the rest of the world and take the wide road into your eternity?

Do you suppose Our Lord founded His Church so people could enjoy it as an option?

You are so happy to reward heaven to people who reject the faith that you don't even stop to think about what you are posting.

The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport. - Fr. Wathen

You are like a politician, totally mischaracterizing what your "opponent" says in order to divert attention from your own deficient position.

Stubborn · « **Reply #24 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:08:09 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Lover of Truth, why are you even Catholic if you think everyone can get to heaven without being Catholic? Why don't you just join the rest of the world and take the wide road into your eternity?

Do you suppose Our Lord founded His Church so people could enjoy it as an option?

You are so happy to reward heaven to people who reject the faith that you don't even stop to think about what you are posting.

The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport. - Fr. Wathen

You are like a politician, totally mischaracterizing what your "opponent" says in order to divert attention from your own deficient position.

Oh you again hey? I see you still have the same type of comments to make which steer away from the subject.

LOT does not answer direct questions either, you and him are very much alike in that way.

SJB · « **Reply #25 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:12:05 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Lover of Truth, why are you even Catholic if you think everyone can get to heaven without being Catholic? Why don't you just join the rest of the world and take the wide road into your eternity?

Do you suppose Our Lord founded His Church so people could enjoy it as an option?

You are so happy to reward heaven to people who reject the faith that you don't even stop to think about what you are posting.

The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport. - Fr. Wathen

You are like a politician, totally mischaracterizing what your "opponent" says in order to divert attention from your own deficient position.

Oh you again hey? I see you still have the same type of comments to make which steer away from the subject.

LOT does not answer direct questions either, you and him are very much alike in that way.

You've been refuted many, many times.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #26 on:** August 01, 2013, 10:22:34 AM »

Forgive me, but since this subject keeps coming up, I think I will post this research material also on this thread.

From the WEB OF CMRI

St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Blood and Desire
...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
...is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood. We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was...
http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_stalph.html

Blood and Desire: Teachings of Popes, Councils, Fathers, Doctors, Theologians
...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml

Editor's Letter for Issue #122 of The Reign of Mary
...this to mean that “Baptism of Desire” is sufficient to save an adult, who through no fault of his own, cannot receive Baptism of Water, but this is not...
...the necessary acts of supernatural faith and charity which accompany Baptism by desire. I find it interesting that Fr. Brian hαɾɾιson, the same Novus...
http://www.cmri.org/rm122-editors_letter.html

Adsum: Mater Dei Seminary Newsletter January 2004
...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
http://www.cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html

Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Liturgy
...Church, he must still follow the natural law to be saved (implicit baptism of desire). It is evident, according to Catholic theology, that these false...
http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml

Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Ecuмenism
...is striving to overcome. Nevertheless, all those justified by faith through baptism are incorporated into Christ. They, therefore, have a right to be...
...and one shepherd...” in the sense that Christ thereby merely expressed a desire or a prayer which as yet has not been granted. The Church, they say, is...
http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_ecuмenism.shtml

Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#117)
...One more discussion on baptism of desire: Neither baptism of desire nor baptism of blood are the sacrament of Baptism, but in cases of necessity they...
...Michael and Peter Dimond why they reject the Church’s teaching on Baptism of Desire and of Blood. As of June 1, 2004, there has been no reply or...
http://www.cmri.org/rm117.html

Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#115)
...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire Extract from St. Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 “Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
...into Baptism of water [‘fluminis’], of desire [‘flaminis’ = wind] and of blood... Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by...
http://www.cmri.org/rm115.html

Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#116)
...Baptism of Desire and of Blood From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
...necessity of Baptism. As we can see from the following quotes, it is necessary for salvation to belong to the Catholic Church — at least by desire. It...
http://www.cmri.org/rm116.html

Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#118)
......Arguing as we sometimes do with those who deny (heretically) Baptism of Blood and of Desire, it is important to understand that God creates no one for...
http://www.cmri.org/rm118.html

Stubborn · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2013, 11:21:46 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Lover of Truth, why are you even Catholic if you think everyone can get to heaven without being Catholic? Why don't you just join the rest of the world and take the wide road into your eternity?

Do you suppose Our Lord founded His Church so people could enjoy it as an option?

You are so happy to reward heaven to people who reject the faith that you don't even stop to think about what you are posting.

The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second-class transport. - Fr. Wathen

You are like a politician, totally mischaracterizing what your "opponent" says in order to divert attention from your own deficient position.

Oh you again hey? I see you still have the same type of comments to make which steer away from the subject.

LOT does not answer direct questions either, you and him are very much alike in that way.
You've been refuted many, many times.

Since according to you and all other BODers, the Sacraments and the Church are not needed for salvation, why are YOU even Catholic?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2013, 12:00:12 PM »

We are Catholic because of the grace of God.

Stubborn · « **Reply #29 on:** August 01, 2013, 12:06:20 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

We are Catholic because of the grace of God.

And all non Catholics are non Catholics because?