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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 6801 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2018, 08:08:04 PM »
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  • Some episcopal lineage charts.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #46 on: April 30, 2018, 10:14:02 AM »
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  • Of Thuc's mandatum?  I've seen images of similar mandata issued to other Iron Curtain bishops, but not the actual Thuc one.  Kalata, who is still alive ... circling back to the original thread topic ... most likely had one.
    Yes, Archbishop Thuc's mandatum.  CI Post here: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/new-book-arguing-against-sedevacantism/msg479690/#msg479690
    And the source is here: http://holyrosarychapel.vpweb.com/ARCHBISHOP-THUC.html


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #47 on: April 30, 2018, 10:24:08 AM »
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  • By nearly all theologians, I am referring to nearly all theologians who have addressed the topic.  Various R&R have cited quotations backing this principle, Nishant in particular, if I recall, and I found the citations convincing.  I'll see if I can find them.
    Thanks in advance.  I recall Nishant saying that but I also recall that he was overstating his case.  I have never seen any theological manual discussing specifically the jurisdictional hierarchy in the context of the indefectibility of the Church.  Whenever they do discuss indefectibility they don't go into the specifics of what would constitute a defection.  So I don't think the specifics are based on divine revelation.  The discussion would need to be limited to what what we can know from reason.  Obviously, the Church must have at least one bishop.  But why would the Church need at least one ordinary when ordinary jurisdiction is not necessary for electing a pope?  If it was a revealed doctrine then end of discussion.  But if it isn't revealed, there is no logical reason for advancing such a proposition.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #48 on: April 30, 2018, 10:59:59 AM »
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  • Thanks in advance.  I recall Nishant saying that but I also recall that he was overstating his case.  I have never seen any theological manual discussing specifically the jurisdictional hierarchy in the context of the indefectibility of the Church.  Whenever they do discuss indefectibility they don't go into the specifics of what would constitute a defection.  So I don't think the specifics are based on divine revelation.  The discussion would need to be limited to what what we can know from reason.  Obviously, the Church must have at least one bishop.  But why would the Church need at least one ordinary when ordinary jurisdiction is not necessary for electing a pope?  If it was a revealed doctrine then end of discussion.  But if it isn't revealed, there is no logical reason for advancing such a proposition.

    I vaguely recall his citing Billot, but I'm not 100%.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #49 on: April 30, 2018, 11:03:50 AM »
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  • Yes, Archbishop Thuc's mandatum.  CI Post here: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/new-book-arguing-against-sedevacantism/msg479690/#msg479690
    And the source is here: http://holyrosarychapel.vpweb.com/ARCHBISHOP-THUC.html

    Thank you.  So it is said that the extent of the powers was verbally communicated.  With that, we'll never know for sure what the Pope told +Thuc.  I don't believe that +Thuc ever gave details.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #50 on: April 30, 2018, 02:40:41 PM »
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  • Thank you.  So it is said that the extent of the powers was verbally communicated.  With that, we'll never know for sure what the Pope told +Thuc.  I don't believe that +Thuc ever gave details.
    Yeah, it's an interesting topic but in the end isn't terribly important because none of the bishops ordained by +Thuc ever claimed to have been appointed to an office.  But maybe there was someone who remains in hiding who +Thuc did appoint to an office?  Who knows?  Anyway, I don't think it is crucial to the resolution of the crisis.  It could be a crumb to hang onto for those who are convinced that there must always be an ordinary in existence.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #51 on: September 04, 2018, 05:52:43 PM »
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  • Just TWO such bishops alive now.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #52 on: September 04, 2018, 06:48:22 PM »
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  • Just TWO such bishops alive now.

    So +Kalata passed away?

    :pray:

    ... the End Times draw nigh.