Author Topic: So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist  (Read 31521 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 23772
  • Reputation: +20814/-413
  • Gender: Male
So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
« on: June 15, 2009, 10:43:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The list covers the various opinions, or "what things you have to pick a position on", to illustrate how complicated Sedevacantism actually is.

    (Sedevacantism is defined here as "believing that the man commonly known as Pope Francis I is not the pope")

    The Crisis in the Church is not a simple matter.

    These are the "33 choices" that any Sedevacantist (or would-be Sedevacantist) eventually asks himself/herself, and should be happy to answer. These are ALL crossroads or points of departure for the various opinions within the sedevacantist world.

    Also, for the sake of accuracy and truth, I would admit that several of these questions are for Traditional Catholics in general.

    Some of these, rather than being actual choices, are actual objections/problems with the Sede position that must be addressed/dealt with/answered by the person adhering to the sedevacantist position.

    * Does the Catholic Church have a pope right now?
    * For how long has the commonly-held pope (in Rome) not been the real pope?
    * If we have a Pope, who is he (name and place of residence)?
    * Is the Catholic Church currently visible or invisible?
    * Is there any priest/bishop/pope you would currently trust now, or follow in matters of faith without judging his every move?
    * How do you reconcile the fact that the world is VERY dangerous as an influence, and that we need Mass and the sacraments (and to a lesser degree, the moral support of fellow Catholics) to save our souls?
    * How do you reconcile the fact that only a future council can formally judge a Pope? Do you have any evidence that the Church makes it possible for laymen to depose, or deny the papacy of, a given pope?
    * How do you reconcile Church indefectibility with the fact (as you hold it) that the current, putative Pope isn't actually a Pope? And the fact that the entire Church structure believes that he is the Pope?
    * Do you believe that Sedevacantism is a dogma of the Faith? When was it added to the Deposit of the Faith? What authority added it?
    * If you consider Sedevacantism to be a prerequisite for salvation, how do you expect that all men arrive at that conclusion? Are we to take it on authority (WHAT authority?), or must we all become theologians individually?
    * Do you believe it's possible to have a less-than-saintly pope on Peter's throne? How about a man who has committed, or who commits, sin? How about a Pope who commits grave sin(s)? How about a man who personally holds some errors? Are you familiar with many Popes throughout Church history? How about Popes that lived before the 18th century?
    * How do you reconcile the notion that, in your estimation, the Catholic Church hasn't provided us laymen with any means of dealing with this unprecedented Crisis? Because as you see it, there is no Epikeia, no ability to disobey a lawful pope, no supplied jurisdiction, etc.
    * What do you think of SSPX masses?
    * If the answer to the above question was in any way negative, please answer: How many SSPX priests have you met? How many SSPX Mass centers have you visited?
    * Do you know of any holy independent/sedevacantist priests? If so, do you realize there are just as many holy SSPX priests? In general, priests are flawed men with a great office bestowed on them by God, and sanctity is always the exception rather than the rule. It has always been thus in the Catholic Church. That is why the Church declares who IS a saint, rather than who IS NOT a saint.
    * What do you think of Archbishop Lefebvre?
    * What do you think of Rome-approved 1962 Masses? (FSSP, ICK, Indult, etc.)
    * What edition of the Missale Romanum does your ideal priest use? (1962, 1957, 1913, etc.)
    * How many true priests/bishops/cardinals exist? A handful? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
    * What kind of priest is needed to say the Mass you would attend? One from CMRI? SSPV? Indpendent? One ordained before 1962? Are there no priests left?
    * Do you realize that it is easy for independent priests to be  actual frauds (with no priestly orders) and that this has happened in the past several times?
    * Do you realize that some independent priests are simply weak in the virtue of obedience? That is, while professing to be "fighting for the truth" and all, they merely couldn't follow orders in the SSPX, SSPV, FSSP, etc. and left so they could "be their own boss".
    * Should you attend some Traditional Latin Mass, or just stay at home?
    * If you advocate "staying at home", is that for fundamental/dogmatic reasons, or would you like to move closer to an independent (sede) chapel someday if you could?
    * If you advocate "staying at home", how do you plan to teach the Faith to your children? How do you expect to maintain that faith, especially as your children grow older and start asserting their own identity? (At a certain age, children stop doing things simply because mom & dad do them -- if the Faith isn't an extra-familial phenomenon, it is often dropped at that point)
    * Can the crisis/lack of pope situation be resolved ever? How will you know a new legitimate Pope has been elected? Will Our Lord, Our Lady, St. Michael, Sts. Peter and Paul, etc. do something personally to appoint a Pope and/or cardinals? Are we waiting for something in the very short-term future such as   the Three Days of Darkness or The End of Time?
    * Is there anything a person (priest, religious, or layman) can do to help end or ameliorate this Crisis? If so, what?
    * Should a new pope be elected by "the remnant"? Should you help elect a pope (or become pope yourself? cf. Pope Michael of Kansas, or Pope Augustine who dresses and works as a layman)
    * What do you think of the average (novus ordo attending) Catholic? Will any of them save their soul? Is it possible for some to be of good will?
    * What do you think of other traditional Catholics? (Defined as "Those trying to oppose error and keep the Faith during this crisis")
    * Do you think those who don't support your preferred sedevacantist group can save their souls? How about those who don't attend your chapel? Should they be formally denounced? In writing?
    * Should some, many, or all non-sedevacantist Catholics be declared, or treated as, Vitandi (persons to be avoided) like those who are excommunicated? How about other sedevacantists whom you don't agree with?
    * If you advocate being harsh with non sede-Catholics, A) how do you reconcile the fact that normally it is a praiseworthy thing for Catholics to love and pray for the pope? How about the fact that this crisis is not normal, and is, in fact, unprecedented? B) How do you reconcile violating an integral part of Catholicism (Charity) in favor of a much lesser "doctrine" (what you consider the "fact" of Sedevacantism)?
    * Are you aware of the actions of past popes throughout Church history? The Great Schism? The fact that St. Vincent Ferrer was on "the wrong side" in that crisis?
    * What do you think of the various priests/bishops who seem to be fearless in their defense of the Faith, though they are not sedevacantist? For example: Bishop Williamson, and many SSPX priests (though there are countless others!)
    * Should we actually hate the pope? The modernist (or all) cardinals? Bishops? Catholics who are not sedevacantist?
    * Can married men be deacons? Priests? (Don't laugh; I know an independent priest who had himself consecrated bishop, and ordained one married man a deacon. He also wants to ordain at least one married man a priest!)
    * What do you think of Fatima? Padre Pio? Baptism of Desire? "Natural Family Planning"? Separation of Church and State? St. Thomas Aquinas? Limbo? America? The Jews?
    * How do you feel about the United States of America? Circa 1940? Circa 1850?
    * How would you compare an average Lutheran with an average Novus Ordo Catholic?
    * Do you believe that Vatican II taught anything binding on Catholics?
    * Do you acknowledge that normally the Catholic Church has a Pope, the spiritual leader of all Catholics? Do you believe that all Catholics must normally submit to this pope, or be in schism?
    * With the foregoing statement in mind, do you realize that Sedevacantism is a positive (in the sense that you're doing something) action, not a neutral one or a lack of action? That is, an SSPX-supporting Traditionalist isn't "making a choice" in the same way you're "making a choice".
    * Especially if you deny the validity of 1962 masses, you have to ask yourself "Why would God abandon His people and His Church for 51 years, with no means of salvation available to the vast majority of people?"
    * Do you have a family? Do you honestly believe that staying at home (or attending a small chapel of 10 people) will be more beneficial to your children than attending, say, an SSPX chapel?
    After all, it's not like the Novus Ordo is said in the latter, and aside from mentioning the Pope's name during the canon (quietly), nothing else goes on that a Sede could complain about. Do you honestly think mentioning the Pope's name during Mass will destroy your child's faith?

    Those last two points are important ones. I know personally that attending an SSPX Mass center takes some effort -- usually an hour drive (or more) and many live too far away to attend weekly Mass. How much worse would it be if you couldn't attend any TLM except that offered by an independent sedevacantist priest? You'd pretty much be a "home-aloner" -- one who reads their missal at home on Sunday. With my knowledge of the world (and having attended an independent chapel for 24 years), I know how dangerous this is for the children especially. Usually they give up the Faith -- it seems too much like a cult. Just for starters, they end up marrying non-Catholics, which leads to problems that can't possibly be over-stated!

    Matthew
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 11:13:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I abjure my brief adherence to sedevacantism. I bear no ill will toward sedevacantists. In this most dreadful crisis, I believe that sedes can be forgiven for thinking that St. Peter's chair is empty, as hopefully I can be forgiven for drawing the opposite conclusion.  I cast no stones.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!


    Offline Dulcamara

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1067
    • Reputation: +38/-0
    • Gender: Female
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 11:27:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Chant: That bishop... if it's who I think you mean, he recently publicly stated that he is not now, never has been, nor (by the grace of God) ever will be sedevacantist. He was quite worked up on that occasion, because apparently someone on the internet had been spreading rumors that he was, which he denounced as "grave/serious lies".

    Granted, it's been sometimes difficult to understand exactly what he DOES think of the present situation in the Church (except that it's a crisis and a mess), but... thanks be to God, at least he is not a sede.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23772
    • Reputation: +20814/-413
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 11:39:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, just so you know, it wasn't me spreading such rumors, because I don't use names when I'm discussing things in a high-level manner. I am purposely vague.

    I realize he might not be sede, but he does have all the problems that go with being a "maverick" or "independent" priest -- one who is completely alone and has to follow orders from no one. It's easy for such a priest to A) get discouraged, especially after many years and B) to go off the deep end.

    It's the old truism that schism virtually always leads to heresy.

    Matthew
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline trent13

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 280
    • Reputation: +18/-2
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 04:02:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The list covers the various opinions, or "what things you have to pick a position on", to illustrate how complicated the decision to become Sedevacantist really is.


    I don't quite understand this - are you implying that because it is more complicated to decide a course of action if one is sedevacantist, it is best to go along with the SSPX?  And "the decision to become sedevacantist," just sounds weird - it's a position where one comes to the conclusion that the pope is not who he claims to be, it's not a matter of deciding to become sedevacantist, like, "Today, I will become sedevacantist."


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23772
    • Reputation: +20814/-413
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 04:15:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you for your question -- I will try to clarify.

    Deciding what to do in this Crisis in the Church IS VERY COMPLICATED no matter what position you end up holding. That is my point. I don't want people thinking Sedevacantism is somehow the most graceful, or easiest, solution.

    We recently had someone on this board "become Sedevacantist", and he was wondering out loud what practical effect it would have on his life. He was trying to figure out what else he needed to be thinking about, etc.

    That is what gave me the idea to make this list.

    This list is meant to ask honest questions (and point out actual problems or issues) that will have to be dealt with by any sedevacantist. Anyone who has ever considered sedevacantism has probably thought of many of these things at some point.

    It isn't meant to be offensive -- with any major decision, you choose your consequences. The sedevacantist position is no different. I'm helping people to see what those consequences will be.

    It also points out the variations in the broad "sedevacantist" camp.

    It serves the same purpose as a "questionnaire" you might fill out on MySpace, Facebook, or a dating site, to help people get to know you.

    Lastly, these are the issues/points filed in my head under "sedevacantism", and why I'm not a sedevacantist today.

    At the very least, it serves as a reference, and a good springboard for discussion.

    Matthew
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23772
    • Reputation: +20814/-413
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 05:33:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thanks for the comment, Roscoe. I modified the above document accordingly.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23772
    • Reputation: +20814/-413
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 05:44:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, I do give everyone credit for wanting to give some thought to a decision that will impact their immortal soul.

    But perhaps some people can't be bothered to "stop and think" even about something so weighty.

    There will always be hotheads.

    Matthew
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!


    Offline trent13

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 280
    • Reputation: +18/-2
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • [/quote]I didn't mean that there are not HUGE ramifications because there are, but the fact is that once a person accepts this as the correct position, the world actually makes sense.  And once a person sees the truth of it, it's one of those forehead smacking moments, when one would say "How could I ever have not seen it?!"
    Quote


    Even though I disagree with, what seems to me the general extremity of your ideas on the pope situation, I definitely agree with you on this point.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6398
    • Reputation: +1425/-37
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 01:33:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I am at work, doing my quasi-vampire thing at the hotel.  If I have more time, I will get to this at greater length, but...

    I do not know a single person who thinks the Holy Sacrifice offered according to the 1962 Missal is invalid.  For any fruitful discussion amongst those who resist, it facilitates things immensely when we actually understand correctly the position of our confereres.  God speed.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6398
    • Reputation: +1425/-37
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 02:29:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    ...because BoD is the real nonsense.


    Tell that to St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus Liguori, et alii.

    Read St. Thomas' explanation of the THREE ways to receive the grace of the ONE Sacrament of Baptism.  It is both clear and profound.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6398
    • Reputation: +1425/-37
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 04:06:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Try to grasp this:

    The SAME CHURCH that issued those decrees elevated Sts Thomas and Alphonsus to the level of Doctor - and did so knowing they taught BoD and BoB.  Such teachings have remained in their writings to this day.  St. Alphonsus lived well after Trent, btw.

    There is a HARMONY between their teachings and that of Holy Church.  It is NOT one or the other.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6398
    • Reputation: +1425/-37
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 04:31:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Matthew,

    You realize, of course, that I - or a good-willed, non-Catholic outsider - could also draw up a lengthy list of questions for those who think as you do?

    Your "take" is not so simple, either.  Such is unavoidable in an unprecedented situation.  God speed.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6398
    • Reputation: +1425/-37
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 04:37:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The V2 Church is highly visible.  Is it leading people to heaven or hell?  If the latter, how is that possible if it is the ONE invincible guardian and the infallible, authoritative teacher of revealed truth?

    Was Holy Church visible when she was only made up of a few Jews still living in Palestine?  Waht does it even mean to be "visible" in this instance?

    Did God-made-man actually DIE?  How could that happen?  Could his church go through a similar, albeit-mystical experience?

    No, this is not the list to which I alluded.  These are just tough questions.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Raoul76

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4814
    • Reputation: +2007/-5
    • Gender: Male
    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 04:58:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Gladius, you work a late-shift at a hotel?  

    I tried to get a job like that, it didn't work out.  I like to stay up all night.  Maybe we are "symbolically" staying up through the dark night of the Church, waiting for daylight.  

    I think the Church is plenty visible.  As soon as I figured out something was wrong in VII, it took me no time at all to scout around on the Internet and discover sedevacantism.  Heck, Mel Gibson made us world-famous, even if he is not the best advocate.  No one can say that they haven't heard of traditional Catholics.  God has seen to it with the Internet and all the other blessings He's given us that no one has an excuse ( yes, the Internet is a blessing in our time, without it there is no way I'd have found sedevacantism ).


    I'm not sure what this list you're referring to is, though.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16