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Author Topic: So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist  (Read 47545 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
« Reply #150 on: July 02, 2013, 03:03:57 AM »
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    * What kind of priest is needed to say the Mass you would attend? One from CMRI? SSPV? Indpendent? One ordained before 1962? Are there no priests left?


    I would go to any priest who was certainly validly ordained, who has kept the Faith, is not schismatic, and in which there was not risk of scandal especially in regard to children.

    To be more specific:

    1.  CMRI
    2.  Most SSPX masses
    3.  Many independent chapels
    4.  Some Eastern Rite chapels
    5.  Roman Rite clergy ordained prior to the Paul VI Rite, with the conditions above kept in mind.

    I would avoid

    1.  SSPV, mostly due to their schismatic usurpation of authority by denying Catholics Holy Communion for attending masses at certain other chapels.  There are other reasons but I think the one I mentioned is sufficient.
    2.  Masses said by priests with lineages that I am uncertain of.
    3.  SSPX chapels that are overly attached to the antipopes, due to risk of scandal to the children.
    4.  SSPX chapels that use priests who were ordained in the Paul VI rite, or ordained in the Catholic rite, but by a bishop of the Paul VI rite.
    5.  Any chapel that is dominated by cultish behavior.
    6.  Any chapel that prohibits Catholics from attending other masses, by a false claim of authority by the priest.
    7.  Chapels in which other Catholics, not necessarily myself are unjustly denied Holy Communion, or kicked out.  What you do to my brother you do to me.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #151 on: July 02, 2013, 03:12:56 AM »
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    * Do you realize that it is easy for independent priests to be  actual frauds (with no priestly orders) and that this has happened in the past several times?


    Yes, I am aware of many instances of this.  Catholics must always be aware that the hierarchy is not watching out or them, and for a long time has not sent priests.

    Catholics have the right and duty to question any priest about his orders, that he may consider suspect or about a priest that no one knows about.

    Due to the SSPX using priests of the Paul VI rite, Catholics should not automatically trust SSPX on this either, and should enquire if there is any doubt.

    Catholics should avoid any mass until they are certain that the priest is validly ordained.  

    With the CMRI, they never allow priests of the Paul VI rite to say mass at their chapels without conditional ordination, so I do not believe it is necessary to question them, as they stand by their policy, with no exceptions.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #152 on: July 02, 2013, 03:15:16 AM »
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  • I will finish the questions tomorrow.  I am out of energy and it is late.  I Hope the answers I gave were clear and adequate.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Pius IX

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #153 on: July 02, 2013, 03:52:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    * Does the Catholic Church have a pope right now?


    No

    Quote from: Matthew

    * For how long has the commonly-held pope (in Rome) not been the real pope?


    A few months.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If we have a Pope, who is he (name and place of residence)?


    No, we don't.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Is the Catholic Church currently visible or invisible?


    It's visible. De fide.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Is there any priest/bishop/pope you would currently trust now, or follow in matters of faith without judging his every move?


    I trust my confessor with my soul, but I would never follow a cleric blindly.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How do you reconcile the fact that the world is VERY dangerous as an influence, and that we need Mass and the sacraments (and to a lesser degree, the moral support of fellow Catholics) to save our souls?


    I agree with this in toto. Nothing to reconcile.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How do you reconcile the fact that only a future council can formally judge a Pope?


    Only if the deceased pope lost his office. No power on earth can judge a pope.

    Quote from: Matthew

    Do you have any evidence that the Church makes it possible for laymen to depose, or deny the papacy of, a given pope?


    No laymen ever depose a pope. The actions of the conciliar popes speak for themselves. As Archbishop Lefebvre said, they are anti-Christ. Any Catholic who sees heresy is bound to avoid it, and any manifest heretic places himself outside of the Church. It is rather airtight, and can be seen throughout history, theology, and Church docuмents.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How do you reconcile Church indefectibility with the fact (as you hold it) that the current, putative Pope isn't actually a Pope? And the fact that the entire Church structure believes that he is the Pope?


    That does not have to do with indefectibility. Indefectibility means that the Church cannot give error. If the new popes are true popes, that means she has given the faithful a bastard Mass, bastard disciplines, canon law which promotes error, and has beatified men who have not lived holy lives. As the Great Western Schism and the Arian crisis illustrate, it is possible for many clergymen and lay Catholics to be mistaken. Finally, the entire Church structure does not believe him to be pope. We don't.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you believe that Sedevacantism is a dogma of the Faith? When was it added to the Deposit of the Faith? What authority added it?


    No.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If you consider Sedevacantism to be a prerequisite for salvation, how do you expect that all men arrive at that conclusion? Are we to take it on authority (WHAT authority?), or must we all become theologians individually?


    N/A.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you believe it's possible to have a less-than-saintly pope on Peter's throne? How about a man who has committed, or who commits, sin? How about a Pope who commits grave sin(s)? How about a man who personally holds some errors? Are you familiar with many Popes throughout Church history? How about Popes that lived before the 18th century?


    I am very aware, and as a formally trained historian, could even give some examples of debauched pontiffs. John X comes to mind, as he turned St. Peter's into a brother and lived a life of iniquity. However, none of these men ever committed grace sins against faith, being pertinacious heretics. The worst renaissance pope, with all of his cardinal-nephews, mistresses, and exploits would never push a bastard Mass and a poisoned faith.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How do you reconcile the notion that, in your estimation, the Catholic Church hasn't provided us laymen with any means of dealing with this unprecedented Crisis? Because as you see it, there is no Epikeia, no ability to disobey a lawful pope, no supplied jurisdiction, etc.


    There is supplied jurisdiction, and I think the Church has provided us with a means to deal with this crisis, although it is unprecedented. Receive the sacraments and save our souls.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of SSPX masses?


    They are valid and licit.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If the answer to the above question was in any way negative, please answer: How many SSPX priests have you met? How many SSPX Mass centers have you visited?


    N/A.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you know of any holy independent/sedevacantist priests? If so, do you realize there are just as many holy SSPX priests? In general, priests are flawed men with a great office bestowed on them by God, and sanctity is always the exception rather than the rule. It has always been thus in the Catholic Church. That is why the Church declares who IS a saint, rather than who IS NOT a saint.


    Yes, I do on both counts.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of Archbishop Lefebvre?


    The man is a saint in my opinion.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of Rome-approved 1962 Masses? (FSSP, ICK, Indult, etc.)


    If the priest is trying his best, is not a modernist, and is a validly ordained priest, I would attend said Mass if I had no choice.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What edition of the Missale Romanum does your ideal priest use? (1962, 1957, 1913, etc.)


    Pre-1955

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How many true priests/bishops/cardinals exist? A handful? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?


    I don't know how many cardinals and bishops there are, but the trad clergy probably number a thousand, give or take a few hundred.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What kind of priest is needed to say the Mass you would attend? One from CMRI? SSPV? Indpendent? One ordained before 1962? Are there no priests left?


    A Catholic priest.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you realize that it is easy for independent priests to be  actual frauds (with no priestly orders) and that this has happened in the past several times?


    Absolutely. Sub soli nihil novi est.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you realize that some independent priests are simply weak in the virtue of obedience? That is, while professing to be "fighting for the truth" and all, they merely couldn't follow orders in the SSPX, SSPV, FSSP, etc. and left so they could "be their own boss".


    I don't know. The indie priests I know remind me of the parson from Canterbury Tales. 100% caring and dedicated. It's not like they went to a Mickey Mouse seminary and are just doing there own thing.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Should you attend some Traditional Latin Mass, or just stay at home?


    If there is a Catholic Mass available, go. If not, what can one do?

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If you advocate "staying at home", is that for fundamental/dogmatic reasons, or would you like to move closer to an independent (sede) chapel someday if you could?


    N/A.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If you advocate "staying at home", how do you plan to teach the Faith to your children? How do you expect to maintain that faith, especially as your children grow older and start asserting their own identity? (At a certain age, children stop doing things simply because mom & dad do them -- if the Faith isn't an extra-familial phenomenon, it is often dropped at that point)


    N/A.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Can the crisis/lack of pope situation be resolved ever? How will you know a new legitimate Pope has been elected? Will Our Lord, Our Lady, St. Michael, Sts. Peter and Paul, etc. do something personally to appoint a Pope and/or cardinals? Are we waiting for something in the very short-term future such as   the Three Days of Darkness or The End of Time?


    God will intervene somehow. There will be another pope.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Is there anything a person (priest, religious, or layman) can do to help end or ameliorate this Crisis? If so, what?


    Penance and prayer.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Should a new pope be elected by "the remnant"? Should you help elect a pope (or become pope yourself? cf. Pope Michael of Kansas, or Pope Augustine who dresses and works as a layman)


    No.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of the average (novus ordo attending) Catholic? Will any of them save their soul? Is it possible for some to be of good will?


    Many within the conciliar church are at least material heretics, but there are some who do have the faith, are pious, but cannot see the crisis. I know some pious souls who only attend the NO, but don't know any better.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of other traditional Catholics? (Defined as "Those trying to oppose error and keep the Faith during this crisis")


    God bless 'em. We all get in the same line for the confessional.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you think those who don't support your preferred sedevacantist group can save their souls? How about those who don't attend your chapel? Should they be formally denounced? In writing?


    Yes, they can. N/A to second part.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Should some, many, or all non-sedevacantist Catholics be declared, or treated as, Vitandi (persons to be avoided) like those who are excommunicated? How about other sedevacantists whom you don't agree with?


    No.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * If you advocate being harsh with non sede-Catholics, A) how do you reconcile the fact that normally it is a praiseworthy thing for Catholics to love and pray for the pope? How about the fact that this crisis is not normal, and is, in fact, unprecedented? B) How do you reconcile violating an integral part of Catholicism (Charity) in favor of a much lesser "doctrine" (what you consider the "fact" of Sedevacantism)?


    N/A.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Are you aware of the actions of past popes throughout Church history? The Great Schism? The fact that St. Vincent Ferrer was on "the wrong side" in that crisis?


    Absolutely. I studied the G.W.S. in depth.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of the various priests/bishops who seem to be fearless in their defense of the Faith, though they are not sedevacantist? For example: Bishop Williamson, and many SSPX priests (though there are countless others!)


    I respect Bishop Williamson and pray for him. His works have immensely helped me.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Should we actually hate the pope? The modernist (or all) cardinals? Bishops? Catholics who are not sedevacantist?


    St. Pius X pretty much settled the question. I can dislike a pope's moral failings, but never hate him, for he is the Vicar of Christ on earth. I can hate heretics, but I will not hate Catholics with whom I disagree.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Can married men be deacons? Priests? (Don't laugh; I know an independent priest who had himself consecrated bishop, and ordained one married man a deacon. He also wants to ordain at least one married man a priest!)


    No.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * What do you think of Fatima? Padre Pio? Baptism of Desire? "Natural Family Planning"? Separation of Church and State? St. Thomas Aquinas? Limbo? America? The Jews?


    Fatima is very important for all of us. Padre Pio was a holy man. Baptism of Desire is de fide. NFP is licit. The Church and State should not be separated. Aquinas is the Angelic Doctor. Limbo is real. I love my country but despise the anti-Catholic, Enlightenment principles on which it rests. Most Jews are secular and completely oblivious like modern pagans, but the few who are into their Christ denying religion are working for Hell. It is a false sect, and it is no secret that many Jews exert an large influence over many facets in society.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How do you feel about the United States of America? Circa 1940? Circa 1850?


    Things were better at those times, but it was rotten since 1776.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * How would you compare an average Lutheran with an average Novus Ordo Catholic?


    Both heretics, on avg.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you believe that Vatican II taught anything binding on Catholics?


    It attempted to, but failed.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you acknowledge that normally the Catholic Church has a Pope, the spiritual leader of all Catholics? Do you believe that all Catholics must normally submit to this pope, or be in schism?


    Yes and yes.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * With the foregoing statement in mind, do you realize that Sedevacantism is a positive (in the sense that you're doing something) action, not a neutral one or a lack of action? That is, an SSPX-supporting Traditionalist isn't "making a choice" in the same way you're "making a choice".


    Perhaps. Many simply misunderstand it or think it means being a Home Alone Dimondite.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Especially if you deny the validity of 1962 masses, you have to ask yourself "Why would God abandon His people and His Church for 51 years, with no means of salvation available to the vast majority of people?"


    I could put this on its head and ask why would God abandon His people and His Church for 51 years with crazy popes, liberal heretic popes, and lead most of the work to a small group of priest known simply as the Resistance.

    Quote from: Matthew

    * Do you have a family? Do you honestly believe that staying at home (or attending a small chapel of 10 people) will be more beneficial to your children than attending, say, an SSPX chapel?


    I am currently single, but unless I sensed problems at an SSPX chapel I would have no problems availing myself there. I am friendly with SSPX priests.

    Quote from: Matthew

    After all, it's not like the Novus Ordo is said in the latter, and aside from mentioning the Pope's name during the canon (quietly), nothing else goes on that a Sede could complain about. Do you honestly think mentioning the Pope's name during Mass will destroy your child's faith?


    No, but the Recognize and Resist position is untenable, and I would tell them so.

    Quote from: Matthew

    Those last two points are important ones. I know personally that attending an SSPX Mass center takes some effort -- usually an hour drive (or more) and many live too far away to attend weekly Mass. How much worse would it be if you couldn't attend any TLM except that offered by an independent sedevacantist priest? You'd pretty much be a "home-aloner" -- one who reads their missal at home on Sunday. With my knowledge of the world (and having attended an independent chapel for 24 years), I know how dangerous this is for the children especially. Usually they give up the Faith -- it seems too much like a cult. Just for starters, they end up marrying non-Catholics, which leads to problems that can't possibly be over-stated!

    Matthew


    N/A.

    Offline TKGS

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #154 on: July 02, 2013, 07:54:55 AM »
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  • This poster, Pius XI, has done a very good job at answering all of Matthew's objections.  The topic has been fully resolved.  It can and should be locked as no further commentary is needed nor would any further commentary be useful.

    Very good job, Pius XI.


    Offline Emerentiana

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #155 on: July 02, 2013, 10:43:33 AM »
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  •  :applause: :applause:

    The above poster tells it like it is. This interview should be poted with a permanent thread on the forum, so all can refer to it.  Thanks so much!

    Offline Matthew

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #156 on: July 02, 2013, 10:44:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    This poster, Pius XI, has done a very good job at answering all of Matthew's objections.  The topic has been fully resolved.  It can and should be locked as no further commentary is needed nor would any further commentary be useful.

    Very good job, Pius XI.


    Is this post joking or serious?

    The Original Post was about appreciating the complexity of the Sedevacantist position, not "so many objections why you shouldn't become a Sedevacantist".

    If you took it that way, you completely missed the point.
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    Offline Emerentiana

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #157 on: July 02, 2013, 10:44:48 AM »
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  • the correction to the above is the word POSTED  (not poted)   :facepalm:


    Offline TKGS

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #158 on: July 02, 2013, 12:07:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: TKGS
    This poster, Pius XI, has done a very good job at answering all of Matthew's objections.  The topic has been fully resolved.  It can and should be locked as no further commentary is needed nor would any further commentary be useful.

    Very good job, Pius XI.


    Is this post joking or serious?

    The Original Post was about appreciating the complexity of the Sedevacantist position, not "so many objections why you shouldn't become a Sedevacantist".

    If you took it that way, you completely missed the point.


    No.  I was absolutely serious.  The "complexity of the Sedevacantist position" is incredibly simple compared to the absolute morass of contradiction and doctrinal gymnastics (not to mention liturgical abuses and sacrileges) one must endure to be a Conciliarist or a "Recognize and Resister".

    I think you are the one who "completely missed the point."

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #159 on: July 03, 2013, 12:18:41 AM »
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  • I will now keep answering the questions.  I hope the answers can clear up myths and misconceptions about sedevacantists.   I have no intention of clogging up this thread, But Matthew has asked serious questions and he deserves a thoughtful response.  I think each of these questions could be its own thread.  There is a lot of ground to cover.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #160 on: July 03, 2013, 12:26:36 AM »
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  • Quote
    * Do you realize that some independent priests are simply weak in the virtue of obedience? That is, while professing to be "fighting for the truth" and all, they merely couldn't follow orders in the SSPX, SSPV, FSSP, etc. and left so they could "be their own boss".


    There are many independent priests and there are many reasons why they are independent.  It could be for the reason that you put forward, "to be their own boss," but it could also be a sincere belief that the organization that they work with is compromising the Faith in some way.  

    Since we do not know the reason, as we cannot read their soul, it is not worth speculating about.  

    In this time of crisis in the Church, these groups have no real power to force priests to remain anyway.  All traditional clergy, whether part of a group or not, have no mission or assignment from the Church.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #161 on: July 03, 2013, 12:55:45 AM »
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  • Quote
    * Should you attend some Traditional Latin Mass, or just stay at home?
    * If you advocate "staying at home", is that for fundamental/dogmatic reasons, or would you like to move closer to an independent (sede) chapel someday if you could?
    * If you advocate "staying at home", how do you plan to teach the Faith to your children? How do you expect to maintain that faith, especially as your children grow older and start asserting their own identity? (At a certain age, children stop doing things simply because mom & dad do them -- if the Faith isn't an extra-familial phenomenon, it is often dropped at that point)


    I do not advocate staying home, and certainly do not recommend it, but I do not condemn it either.  Only the lawful pastors of the Church can bind us, and we are bound to attend the Sunday and Holyday masses at our parish in which we have domicile.

    The traditional clergy have not been sent to us by a bishop of our diocese, they have not been trained in an approved seminary or by approved professors, nor recommended for ordination by an approved rector.  They are ordained without dimmissorial letters, and do not have a mission from the Church.

    There are grave risks to staying home, but I do not believe a Catholic is compelled by law to attend the masses of traditionalist priests.  Whether or not one stays home or not would rather be under the virtue of prudence.  I believe a Catholic is acting imprudently if he fails to attend a mass of a certainly valid priest, who has kept the Faith, is not a schismatic, and there is no risk of scandal involved.

    If a Catholic parent does stay home either by choice or by having no Mass available, they still have a grave obligation to instruct their children in the Faith, and should be developing a prayer life in the home.  They must also teach their children that when the hierarchy is once again fully present in the world, that they must submit to them.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #162 on: July 03, 2013, 01:16:31 AM »
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  • Quote
    * Can the crisis/lack of pope situation be resolved ever? How will you know a new legitimate Pope has been elected? Will Our Lord, Our Lady, St. Michael, Sts. Peter and Paul, etc. do something personally to appoint a Pope and/or cardinals? Are we waiting for something in the very short-term future such as  the Three Days of Darkness or The End of Time?


    Yes, the crisis can end at any time.  A pope can be elected by the hierarchy and/or the clergy of Rome in the absence of the cardinals.  

    This would haver been so much easier if Archbishop Lefebvre and Bp de Castro Mayer were alive, as they, being members of the hierarchy could have called an imperfect council, denounced the public heretic claimant, and proceeded to elect a pope.  This would have been a lawful act and the election would have been valid.

    Without them, this problem is far more difficult to resolve, but not impossible. God could directly intervene, or he could grant graces to the remaining members of the hierarchy and the Roman Clergy to act and elect a pope.

    We will know that we have a pope as the election will be valid, as the electors have the right to elect.  The electors must be the hierarchy or the Roman clergy.  No other men or group has the power to elect a pope, in the absence of the cardinals.

    Secondly, in my opinion, God will give the faithful certainty through a miracle or perhaps many miracles, so there will be no doubt who the pope is.  Our Lady has already reserved a miracle for a pope who united with the bishops consecrate Russia, which will convert the country.  Perhaps the future Pope will do this' and all will see the miracle of Russia's conversion, and be certain of his claim as Pope.

    Regarding the three days of darkness, or the end of the world, your guess is as good as mine. It seems clear that evil is getting exponentially worse, and in my opinion, something major is going to happen.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #163 on: July 03, 2013, 01:27:31 AM »
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    * Is there anything a person (priest, religious, or layman) can do to help end or ameliorate this Crisis? If so, what?


    Yes, first of all pray, stay in the state of grace, and do the duties of your state.  This will be pleasing to God and will obtain graces.  God showed us the value of the just man, when He would have spared the kingdom of Sodom if there were only 10 just men, and he warned Lot and his family to leave prior to the its destruction.

    Beyond that, we must pray for the remaining members of the hierarchy and the clergy of Rome that they will have graces and strength to act to end this crisis.  

    The only organized body that I know if that has the resources to locate and approach the hierarchy and the Roman clergy and urge them to act would be the SSPX. But, as of now, they do not seem to see this as the solution.  I do not see any other group, especially the sedevacantist groups having the means or the ability to pursue such a massive undertaking.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #164 on: July 03, 2013, 01:35:48 AM »
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    * Should a new pope be elected by "the remnant"? Should you help elect a pope (or become pope yourself? cf. Pope Michael of Kansas, or Pope Augustine who dresses and works as a layman)


    Any election by those who are not lawful electors is illegal and schismatic.  We must wait for those God has sent to us through his Church to act.  

    The only lawful electors, as I have said previously are the hierarchy and the Roman clergy.  It is up to them to end this.  We should pray for them daily that they will have the fortitude and the graces to act.

    God could also end this crisis by His direct involvement.  Either way, we must wait or God or for those He has sent to end this.  We cannot end it on our own.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic