Author Topic: So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist (Read 47782 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #90 on:** March 17, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »

Also, He didn't abandon His Church, it's still here isn't it? In fact He warned us, when He returns will He find the Faith.

Just what do you think His Church is, a building? Vatican City? No, its His teachings! THE FAITH!

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #91 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:18:44 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Also, He didn't abandon His Church, it's still here isn't it? In fact He warned us, when He returns will He find the Faith.

Just what do you think His Church is, a building? Vatican City? No, its His teachings! THE FAITH!

His Church is visible.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #92 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:20:02 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

His "abiding" with in 'her' in these days does not seem to have done much good, has it? 'She' is the laughing stock of the entire world; a babbling, disgraced harlot whose roof protects heretics and perverts of all sorts. No one, not even her own 'loyal' children, listens to her.

That description could fit the Church at various points of history. Christ has always seen to it the seeds of resurrection are there. The Church was almost all Arian at one time as well.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #93 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:26:37 PM »

Quote from: Exilenomore

"Even if the amount of catholics faithful to tradition is reduced to a remnant; they are the true Church of Christ." - St. Athanasius

St. Athanasius didn't deny Liberius was Pope even after he unjustly excommunicated him.

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God did not abandon His Church, neither do we say that He did. There are still valid bishops and priests, offering the spotless Sacrifice in the world. As long as this is the case, the Church has not defected, which she cannot. There will come a valid Pontiff again, who will restore all things.

The Church has defected if it has been, not only headless for 50 years but visibly non-existant except for a few smatterings of fractured believers contradicting each other with no hope of restoration because they deny the visible Church exists.

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The visibility of the Church means that the Church is not some invisible pneumatic entity, but consists of tangible and visible human beings who believe the same doctrines of the same faith.

To say the Church's visibility means that one human is Catholic and not invisible makes the teaching on "visibility" completely meaningless.

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Modernism is 'absurd' and 'crazy', not the belief that the throne of Peter is vacant at present.

I think both are crazy objectively, though subjectively people sincerely hold to them.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #94 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:43:12 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Christ has always seen to it the seeds of resurrection are there.

They are present now, too, although you and I see them under different aspects at the moment.

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The Church was almost all Arian at one time as well.

This is not really ad rem, stevus, as Arianism was not emanating from the very See of Peter. Sure, there were some parallels to our day, but nothing in Church history is really analogous.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #95 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:46:27 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

His Church is visible.

True, but what is the proper definition of visibility? What is YOUR understanding of visibility? I am not being smart, but want to know what you think.

There are many religious bodies that are false, yet visible, even highly so. Visibility, however you define it, means nothing if the Gospel being preached is false.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #96 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:50:28 PM »

BTW, I do not deny the visible Church exists. I just don't think visibility is defined in the way most Catholics, many SVs included, seem to think.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #97 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:02:39 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: stevusmagnus
Christ has always seen to it the seeds of resurrection are there.

They are present now, too, although you and I see them under different aspects at the moment.

So you are saying the sedes are the seeds?

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The Church was almost all Arian at one time as well.

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This is not really ad rem, stevus, as Arianism was not emanating from the very See of Peter. Sure, there were some parallels to our day, but nothing in Church history is really analogous.

Liberius excommunicated the only prominent Bishop fighting the heresy of Arianism which almost took over the Church and signed, what many say is an heretical Creed.

If you see things from the Society point of view it is similar to Arianism, though greater in degree. The Sede point of view has no precedent.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #98 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:13:00 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

So you are saying the sedes are the seeds?

Actually, I am not -- but you can have your irrational laugh if you feel the need :)

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The Sede point of view has no precedent.

This means nothing, stevus. In the time of Arianism, there was no precedent for Arianism or how to deal with it, but the correct view was still correct. This was true at many stages in the long life of the Church. Lack of precedent means NADA, and it is as clear as the summer sun that the present crisis is...you got it...UNPRECEDENTED!

MyrnaM · « **Reply #99 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:42:05 PM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Quote from: MyrnaM
Also, He didn't abandon His Church, it's still here isn't it? In fact He warned us, when He returns will He find the Faith.

Just what do you think His Church is, a building? Vatican City? No, its His teachings! THE FAITH!

His Church is visible.

It is visible in the sense that one can recogzine it, by its 4 marks. ONE, all traditionalist have the same Faith, even the sede does believe in the office of Pope. HOLY, all traditionalist enjoy the holiness of the Mass of All Times. Catholic, it is universal, not exclusive to just one particular race of people, and we can all agree the Traditional Catholic Faith holds firm to the traditions it was taught from the beginning, the deposit of Faith handed down from Christ through the apostles who were inspired by the Holy Ghost.

I will take up some reading on the visibility of the Church tomorrow just to see if my definition is close to being correct.

I do not recognize the novus ordo as being founded by Christ. Each parish is divided, Holy; where?
Universal, I suppose if you want to change that to mean, all religions are equal now. Apostolic, no way, they were founded in 1962 - 1965 somewhere around that time.

BTW, the title of this thread, "so you want to become a sede"
NO, I want to remain a Catholic. Just thought I would mention that. Sedevacantist is not a religion per se. It is a position held by Catholics who believe a true pope can not be a heretic, a true pope can not lead people on a path outside the Church.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #100 on:** March 18, 2011, 05:02:37 AM »

Gladius,

I was laughing at the play on words. The "Sedes" are the "seeds"? Get it?

The degree of the crisis is unprecedented, but the Society reaction is not unprecedented. They are following the example of St. Athanasius. The Sede response to the crisis is unprecedented as there have been no Sedes till the 1970's. I think that is a fair point.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #101 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:12:04 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Gladius,

I was laughing at the play on words. The "Sedes" are the "seeds"? Get it?

The degree of the crisis is unprecedented, but the Society reaction is not unprecedented. They are following the example of St. Athanasius. The Sede response to the crisis is unprecedented as there have been no Sedes till the 1970's. I think that is a fair point.

Congregation Mariae Reginae Immaculatae (CMRI) the Sedes position was organized in 1967; prior to that the word was used during an interregnum. A coin or stamp with the words "Sedevacantism" was issued by the Vatican during a longer interregnum.

Exilenomore · « **Reply #102 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:51:17 AM »

The argument of Pope Liberius is often used against us. It cannot be compared. Here is what St. Robert Bellarmine said of it:

"Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew [then] to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly [merito] be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple [simpliciter], and condemn him as a heretic."

This Felix is venerated by the Roman Church as Pope and Martyr.

Liberius did not preach heresy, but sinned by making peace to the arians to safeguard his life. Even then the Roman clergy was justified, according to Bellarmine, in taking the pontifical dignity from Liberius and giving it to Felix, because of the impression of heresy Liberius gave.

Otherwise the Church has been wrong for more than thousand years in venerating an antipope as Pope and Martyr.

Exilenomore · « **Reply #103 on:** March 18, 2011, 08:59:39 AM »

And to say that we have no hope for restoration is something which you put into our mouths. I firmly believe that catholic restoration will take place.

As to your assertion that there were no adherents tot he sede vacante position before the seventies; How do you know? How do you know whether every bishop and priest scattered abroad the globe still inserted the name of the concilliar heads in the canon of the Mass?

I wonder how many clerics retreated into silence because they wanted to have nothing to do with the new religion. Archbishop Lefebvre, too, has spoken of the many priests and bishops who died of sorrow because of what their eyes saw.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #104 on:** March 18, 2011, 09:22:35 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

The degree of the crisis is unprecedented...

It is not merely a matter of degree, but of kind. A bogus Council held in and approved by Rome, altered Sacramental forms across the board, and a list of 'official' deviations that could go on and on. Something like this has never occurred. Anyone who cannot see this fact is as blind as a bat.