Author Topic: So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist  (Read 31522 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 05:06:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    He didn't post here so I'm guessing you're posting in the wrong thread.


    He STARTED the bloomin' thread, mate!  Yes, you need to go to sleep! LOL
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline DeMaistre

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 05:42:24 PM »
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  • Well, so Prodinoscopus is no longer sedevacantist? That was quick.


    Offline Matthew

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 06:33:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    I am at work, doing my quasi-vampire thing at the hotel.  If I have more time, I will get to this at greater length, but...

    I do not know a single person who thinks the Holy Sacrifice offered according to the 1962 Missal is invalid.  For any fruitful discussion amongst those who resist, it facilitates things immensely when we actually understand correctly the position of our confereres.  God speed.


    So you think I'm insulting you by creating a straw man argument, or exaggerating your position? Sorry, but you misunderstand.

    Every item on that list I've seen answered different ways by sedevacantists I've known or run into (personally or on the Internet). What, you thought I didn't know any sedevacantists?

    For example, I've met plenty who would never be caught dead at a 1962 Tridentine Mass. They claim it's invalid, Novus Ordo, etc.

    Matthew
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    Offline Matthew

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 06:37:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Matthew,

    You realize, of course, that I - or a good-willed, non-Catholic outsider - could also draw up a lengthy list of questions for those who think as you do?

    Your "take" is not so simple, either.  Such is unavoidable in an unprecedented situation.  God speed.


    Yes, you could -- and I would answer them and go on with my life. That's all I'm asking of anyone else.

    You are assuming that if you answer any of those questions "the wrong way" you will have my finger wagging at you. That's not true. I'm just stimulating a bit of thought, that's all.

    You're welcome to do the same -- "So you've decided to follow the SSPX" but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting, because although there are some "SSPX Catholics" who don't tow the party line, they are precisely that -- rebels who don't follow SSPX teaching and instruction. For example, some SSPX Catholics have a TV, but it's always against the advice of their priest.

    Whereas Sedevacantism covers a HUGE swath of beliefs.

    Matthew
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    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 07:42:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    Well, so Prodinoscopus is no longer sedevacantist? That was quick.

    Sorry, DeMaistre.  I just cannot bring myself to hold to that position. I do not deny that I'm drawn to it at certain moments. Rest assured that I do not judge or condemn those who hold the sedevacantist position, not even Catholic Martyr, who has judged and condemned me.  Yes, CM, I know that according to you it is Holy Mother Church, not you, who judges and condemns me. Whatever, I consider it to be a fallible opinion and not binding on my conscience -- although it does exert some pressure upon my conscience at times.

    The funny (strange, not ha ha) thing is that I have plenty of sins in which I stand condemned even by the Conciliar Church. I'll be condemned to hell with or without sedevacantism, barring a miracle of God's grace. Jesus save me, Mary pray for me.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!


    Offline DeMaistre

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #20 on: June 16, 2009, 09:24:02 PM »
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  • I am sorry to hear that. It just seems rather rash if you ask me. A bit like converting to Catholicism from Protestantism one day and then reverting back the next.

    To be honest, I have my doubts as well, but I've gone to far, I can't go back. Its like a story related by a priest who was a former Nazi, even in the face of immanent defeat, his superior said "We can't go back, we've gone to far". I can never be a "normal" Catholic again.  

    Offline Dawn

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 10:04:24 AM »
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  • My question is, " Do you think an Apostate  can be Pope? Ever?"
    I do not for the record. No never.

    Offline Dulcamara

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 12:12:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prodinoscopus


    The funny (strange, not ha ha) thing is that I have plenty of sins in which I stand condemned even by the Conciliar Church. I'll be condemned to hell with or without sedevacantism, barring a miracle of God's grace. Jesus save me, Mary pray for me.


    You hit on a very important point in saying this. One my own confessor has put into words a couple of times that I've heard. That is, when we get to heaven, the issue is not going to be nearly so much "who the pope was" as it will be whether we adhered to the Catholic Faith, whether we lived it, whether we held to the ten commandments, the commandments of the Church ,etc..

    If a person dies confused about this situation, their minimum commitment, so to speak, to the truth, (as far as I can tell) will have to be the Catholic one: That the Church has a head, a pope, and that the Church cannot "die out" (and therefore cannot need "reviving" or "re-creating" or "rebirth" which implies hell prevailed against it, even if for a time). Anything that is Catholic dogma or known Catholic truth, which we MUST believe to be saved, well... obviously we must believe it. So if God says, there is a pope, and the Church will always exist, then... that is that. If we die confused about WHO the pope was, God may forgive us, depending on various factors like our understanding, or how much of our decision was just wanting to get off easy, or pride, etc.... whether or not we really did what we could to sort it out... whatever.

    However... if we get to the judgment seat, and God finds that not only did we go awry on the pope question (which in many cases is understandable), but that we also went awry on all of the virtues and commandments in the process... THEN we've got issues.

    I'm not going to say that nobody will go to hell for denying the true pope. The reason I'm not going to say that is, I believe that like the Faith itself, if you really want to know, and you humble yourself enough, and are willing enough to face the trials and difficulties of finding out, then you CAN find the truth, with pretty much full certainty, if not full certainty. The facts, the legal issues, the technicalities... everything will point to the true answer, if only we turn off our pride and our overwhelming desire to condemn others, and just look at the naked (albeit possibly unpleasant) facts.

    However I will say that we can ABSOLUTELY and of course, go to hell for abandoning the commandments, or... dare I say it? ... things like charity, humility, etc., which are vital to a true Catholic life.

    To Prodinoscopus:
    Don't be discouraged in this hour of darkness. Whatever our understanding, the whole situation is not an easy one. But I think you are on the right page to be as concerned about your personal sins as you are about arguing to the death about this issue.

    However, I would say...  don't despair, however black the sins. If God can forgive harlots and people who killed Christians, and every manner of grave offense, because of His goodness, mercy and love, we should not doubt that if we are sincere in our sorrow for our sins, that God, our perfect and loving father, will forgive us as well. Sometimes, depending on the gravity of our sins, that can SEEM like a lot of nerve or presumption on our part, but... the reality is, we are speaking of a perfect God, whose virtues are infinitely above our own, and even above our understanding. Now any decent parent whose child has gone awry... however far awry... even to the extent of murder or other crimes that cry to heaven for vengeance... would nevertheless, if they were good, forgive that person if they repented sincerely of their crimes. (To quote loosely: ) But if you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to them that ask thee, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good gifts to them that ask Him?

    If we, being flawed, have mercy upon those many would not have mercy upon, because we know that in the end, a person can truly regret their actions and decide not to do them anymore, so, too, we can be sure that God has such forgiveness, and more, being perfect. Moreover, He knows us better than we know ourselves, and what things prompted us to fall to begin with, and whether or not we knew what we were doing, or meant to do wrong, or what have you. Yet even if we were wholly malicious, the Good God does not want to see us burn in hell, because He is perfect goodness. He would much rather we repent, and spend eternity with Him, than to loose any one of us.

    Never give up that fight. In time, God will sort out the question of the pope, and I think history will show in retrospect (at that time) that the SSPX was dead on. In the meantime, arguing about it with people who will never budge is pretty much a waste of time, and an occasion of scandal or deception for ourselves in many cases (especially if we know we're tempted to just give up and throw the baby out with the bath water). But if you adhere to what you know is true, and live the best you can according to God's laws for the love of Him, then I'm sure that He and the Blessed Virgin will never give up on you. God does not give up on us. We walk away from Him.

    If you suffer from doubts and strong temptations, and are inclined to despair, I strongly, strongly recommend getting this book and doing the consecration (or renewing it with this book, because it's very much like a retreat):

    Consecration to Mary

    I can't say enough about this devotion, or this book in particular. It is VITAL for souls inclined to doubts and despair to attach themselves firmly to Mary. We may be "naughty little children" in terms of our sins and the poor condition of our spiritual life, and the lack of devotion... but Mary is the Mother Christ gave to such children, so that none of them will be lost. This devotion, I think, is all but indispensable to such souls. (I know, because I'm one of them!)

    I also cannot say enough about the merits of making a general confession. It may be a difficult thing to drag one's self through in a sense, because obviously, we're deeply ashamed of what we've done through our whole lives, but... there is nothing like the peace of walking out of that confessional knowing that at that moment, the devil has absolutely NOTHING on you. It's a great blow to feelings of despair in one's salvation!

    Anyhow, it's nothing the priest hasn't heard before. However bad we are, or whatever horrible things we may have done, someone else has always done something worse.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi


    Offline Dawn

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 01:17:08 PM »
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  • Just finished reading Fr. Meramo's letter to Bishop Fellay. The SSPX will be shown dead on in accepting 95% of the council that began a new church."This council represents, both in the eyes of the Roman Autorities and ours, a new Church that they otherwise call the Conciliar Church."- Archbishop Lefebvre.
    He also affirmed it was a schismatic council.
    So, go ahead. For myself I shall reject the Apostates who brought us the New Church, abandoned the True Chruch of Christ. I will reject it all. As for those who accept 95% it is that last 5% that will sneak up and choke the life out of your soul.
    These days are no surprise to any of us. They were fortold since the beginning. Most especially from Our Lady of LaSallete. We were told that our priests and Bishops would lose the faith. We were told that Rome would become the seat of the anti-Christ. I see it and believe it.


    Offline Dawn

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 01:28:40 PM »
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  • And, yes, it would be best for my children to attend a Church with 10 real Catholics instead of a group of 100 or more in league with the New Church as they themselves call it.
    How many were in the pews during Anthanasius's time? Not many, but should he have gone to the Church of the Arians? Should any of his followers those that listened to the truths he proclaimed gone to the Church of the Arians? After all they had EVERYONE, and you would not want to sit in the pews all by your lonsome self.
    And for sure you may indeed run into a "independent priest" who is questionable at best. I did. SO??? How many "questionable priests" are in the New Religion founded by Vatican II? Leaving invalid orders aside (All of them are invalid since 1969.) It would be better to subject my family to  sermon of no value given by a graduate of the Pink Palace Seminary. So, that there are more people in the pew?

    Offline Dawn

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 01:39:02 PM »
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  • Furthermore, I must believe in the Papacy. Not in Benedict XVI. And, I must also remind you that THEY elected Bendict (as they elected the other Conciliar Popes.) The Holy Spirit is to elect the Pope. Not only that, they are already deciding who the will elect next time around. So, now they are making themselve God by doing the job of the Holy Spirit. Of course just as they did not invite the Holy Spirit to their Vatican Council, they can hardly afford to have him elect a REAL POPE. Still, it is correct to say that the Church is suffering Her Passion just as her beloved Spouse suffered His. Bruised and tattered by the new Sanhedrin lead by the False Ciaphus she will be restored to her full glory by Christ.


    Offline DeMaistre

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #26 on: June 18, 2009, 01:05:50 AM »
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  • What makes you not able to profess "sede-vacantism", Prodinoscopus?

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #27 on: June 18, 2009, 07:38:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    What makes you not able to profess "sede-vacantism", Prodinoscopus?

    I am not competent to judge with absolute certainty that the post-Vatican II popes are guilty of manifest and pertinacious heresy. In response to my anticipated censure by CM, I am not conscious of the mortal sin of following a heretical anti-pope, because I am not convinced that he is such.

    God will sort it out.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #28 on: June 18, 2009, 10:30:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Dawn
    Just finished reading Fr. Meramo's letter to Bishop Fellay. The SSPX will be shown dead on in accepting 95% of the council that began a new church."This council represents, both in the eyes of the Roman Autorities and ours, a new Church that they otherwise call the Conciliar Church."- Archbishop Lefebvre.
    He also affirmed it was a schismatic council.
    So, go ahead. For myself I shall reject the Apostates who brought us the New Church, abandoned the True Chruch of Christ. I will reject it all. As for those who accept 95% it is that last 5% that will sneak up and choke the life out of your soul.
    These days are no surprise to any of us. They were fortold since the beginning. Most especially from Our Lady of LaSallete. We were told that our priests and Bishops would lose the faith. We were told that Rome would become the seat of the anti-Christ. I see it and believe it.


    And, yes, it would be best for my children to attend a Church with 10 real Catholics instead of a group of 100 or more in league with the New Church as they themselves call it.
    How many were in the pews during Anthanasius's time? Not many, but should he have gone to the Church of the Arians? Should any of his followers those that listened to the truths he proclaimed gone to the Church of the Arians? After all they had EVERYONE, and you would not want to sit in the pews all by your lonesome self.
    And for sure you may indeed run into a "independent priest" who is questionable at best. I did. SO??? How many "questionable priests" are in the New Religion founded by Vatican II? Leaving invalid orders aside (All of them are invalid since 1969.) It would be better to subject my family to sermon of no value given by a graduate of the Pink Palace Seminary. So, that there are more people in the pew?


    Furthermore, I must believe in the Papacy. Not in Benedict XVI. And, I must also remind you that THEY elected Benedict (as they elected the other Conciliar Popes.) The Holy Spirit is to elect the Pope. Not only that, they are already deciding who the will elect next time around. So, now they are making themselves God by doing the job of the Holy Spirit. Of course just as they did not invite the Holy Spirit to their Vatican Council, they can hardly afford to have him elect a REAL POPE. Still, it is correct to say that the Church is suffering Her Passion just as her beloved Spouse suffered His. Bruised and tattered by the new Sanhedrin lead by the False Caiaphas she will be restored to her full glory by Christ.



    You are so exactly right on.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 09:28:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Quote from: Prodinoscopus
    Quote from: DeMaistre
    What makes you not able to profess "sede-vacantism", Prodinoscopus?

    I am not competent to judge with absolute certainty that the post-Vatican II popes are guilty of manifest and pertinacious heresy. In response to my anticipated censure by CM, I am not conscious of the mortal sin of following a heretical anti-pope, because I am not convinced that he is such.

    God will sort it out.


    Common sense dictates that the v2 'popes' are anti-popes guilty of manifest and pertinacious heresy.

    You have no authority to declare your "common sense" judgment in a way that is binding on me or anyone else. You will never have that authority, not on this earth.

    Same goes for you, CM.

    Only the Pope has that authority, and if there is no Pope, it's a free for all.  Every man becomes his own Pope.

    The only sane alternative, for me, at least, is to recognize Benedict XVI as a Pope who has abused his authority and resist him tooth and nail.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!


     

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