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Author Topic: So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist  (Read 47745 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2013, 11:39:52 PM »
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    * Is the Catholic Church currently visible or invisible?


    The Catholic Church is visible, but it is less visible than it existed in former times.  The Church is made up of both the Pastors (the Hierarchy) and the laity.  The Church must always maintain some level of visibility, but it can vary in its degree of visibility.

    When the Church began it was made up of only the Apostles, and they at one point were in hiding.  Yet, the Church remained visible.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #136 on: July 02, 2013, 12:06:53 AM »
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    * Is there any priest/bishop/pope you would currently trust now, or follow in matters of faith without judging his every move?


    Well, there are two types of bishops and priests in the world today.  Those with a mission and those without (traditional bishops and priests).

    I know with certainty that there are bishops in the world who are members of the hierarchy, and who have kept the faith.  Whether or not they err on who the pope is, I would trust their doctrine, as long as the have kept the faith.  The same applies to the priests sent by the Church.

    Regarding the traditional clergy, there are many whom I trust.  This would apply to sedevacantist and non sedevacantist clergy.  The essential elements that I have in trusting the traditional clergy are whether they have the Faith, that they remain in communion with all Catholics, and are not the cause of scandal.

    There are many that fit this description, and I do trust them.  At the same time, however, I remain aware that the traditional clergy are not the lawful pastors of the Church.  I am not bound to them in justice as a pre-Vatican II Catholic was to his Pastor and to his local bishop.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #137 on: July 02, 2013, 12:19:06 AM »
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    * How do you reconcile the fact that the world is VERY dangerous as an influence, and that we need Mass and the sacraments (and to a lesser degree, the moral support of fellow Catholics) to save our souls?


    I agree with this completely, and would urge Catholics to frequent the Sacraments, to pray the Rosary, read spiritual books, avoid bad company, etc.

    Sedevacantism if understood properly, should never be a reason for abandoning the sacraments.  For myself, I have attended and would continue to attend Masses said by any validly ordained priest who has kept the Faith and is not a schismatic, and those who are not the cause of scandal.

    For myself, I would attend masses of the CMRI, SSPX, Resistance, many independent chapels, and some eastern rite Catholic Churches.


    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #138 on: July 02, 2013, 12:32:14 AM »
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    * How do you reconcile the fact that only a future council can formally judge a Pope? Do you have any evidence that the Church makes it possible for laymen to depose, or deny the papacy of, a given pope?


    The answer to this can be found in the word, "depose."  We cannot depose any pope.  A public heretic loses his membership in the Church, and therefore his office (if he had it to begin with), from the moment that he professes public heresy, by operation of law.  

    We are witnesses to the fact, we have no power, therefore, we cannot bind any else to what we see and comprehend.  That is why Catholics who believe the claims of the anti-popes cannot be guilty of schism.  Until a future Pope authoritatively makes a judgment on this, the determination we form based on the public evidence binds only our only conscience, not the Church.  

    As laymen, we have a duty to profess the Faith, to keep the Faith, and to avoid heretics.  But, how can we avoid our head?  Archbishop Lefebvre understood this and explained this point ver well in his 1986 Address to Seminarians.  The Pope cannot be ignored.  If the man claiming to be pope is professing heresy, promulgating evil laws, impious sacramental rites, engaging in public sins against the First Commandment, he is forcing us to make a judgment about him in order for us to keep the Faith.  He is the aggressor, we are merely reacting to the public evidence we are witnessing.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #139 on: July 02, 2013, 12:44:39 AM »
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    * How do you reconcile Church indefectibility with the fact (as you hold it) that the current, putative Pope isn't actually a Pope? And the fact that the entire Church structure believes that he is the Pope?


    I would argue that many within the Conciliar structure from the days of Paul VI on do not truly accept the claims of the antipopes.

    What does it mean to accept a Pope?  If you were alive during the time of Pius XII, would you simply say " he is pope," and that is the end of it?  No, as a Catholic your affirmation of who the Pope is means that you are his subject, that you are ready to be taught by him, believe him, not just in his infallible pronouncements, but even in his non-infallible teaching given to the universal Church, to believe him in his moral teachings, to obey his laws, and to submit to you local ordinary who remains in communion with him.

    From the time of Paul VI Catholics who have kept the Faith have not accepted the Pope as the rule of Faith, they no longer learn from him, they know they cannot trust his universal laws, that they cannot follow his public example, etc.

    The Catholics who say these men are popes not are not accepting them as popes in the manner that Catholics accept a true pope.  Therefore there is no acceptance of these men among those who have kept the Faith.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #140 on: July 02, 2013, 01:20:31 AM »
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    * Do you believe that Sedevacantism is a dogma of the Faith? When was it added to the Deposit of the Faith? What authority added it?


    Sedevacantism is not a dogma.  It is a judgment of the status of men claiming to be pope who are publicly profession heresy and grave errors against the Faith.  As I mentioned above, Archbishop Lefebvre believed such a judgment was possible prior to the judgment of the Church, and he was forming this view based on the Code.  St Robert Bellarmine and the majority of theologians who have written on the case of a heretical pope all say that he would lose his office prior to a declaration.  

    As Catholics we are recognizing a fact, we are not creating a dogma.  

    If you came home one night and saw a prominent member of your town dressed in black, climbing out a window of your home with a crowbar in one hand, and a bag full of money and other valuables in his other hand.  You yell at him to stop, he drops the bag, and flees.  There is no evidence except you testimony, as he wore gloves.  

    The police arrest him, but the town is divided.  Many say, he would never do that, you are mistaken, etc.  Do these people have to believe you?  It is your word against his.  One thing that cannot be denied is that you are certain of what you saw regardless of whether anyone believes you.  The truth in this instance binds you, but not others.

    Many Catholics have very carefully looked at the evidence of the public crime of heresy committed by Paul VI and his successors.  Many of us, myself included wish that there was some innocent way of explaining this.  We have seen the evidence of what these men have done. We have formed the judgment that these men could not have been popes, but the judgments binds no one else to it.  We have no authority in the Church.

    Some books providing evidence that I have read:

    1.  Peter Lovest Thou Me? Fr. Daniel Le Roux
    http://www.carmel-books.org/peter-lovest-thou-me-p-986.html

    2.  Iota Unum, Romano Amerio
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963903217/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0963903217&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    3.  John Paul II's Theological Journey, all volumes, Fr. Dormann
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0935952527/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0935952527&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    4.  The Books of Accusation of Heresy against Paul VI, John Paul II, and the Alleged Catechism of the Catholic Church, Fr. George's de Nantes.
    http://www.crc-internet.org/1097-books-of-accusation.html

    5. Paul VI Beatified, Fr Villa
    http://www.padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Paul_VI.._beatified_english.pdf

    I could continue but all that I have presented already is very strong evidence of public heresy.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #141 on: July 02, 2013, 01:35:04 AM »
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    * If you consider Sedevacantism to be a prerequisite for salvation, how do you expect that all men arrive at that conclusion? Are we to take it on authority (WHAT authority?), or must we all become theologians individually?


    It is not a pre-requisite to salvation.  No man is bound to this conclusion.  Those who are bound to this are those who have formed the judgment based on public evidence that these men could not have been popes.  We cannot deny a truth that is clear to us, even if ourselves and others are not bound by authority.

    Regarding this point, the question is not what is the truth, it is what is the status of the truth.

    Those who are not convinced because they have either not viewed the evidence, do not grasp the theology involved or perhaps other reasons are not bound to this truth.  

    Only those who are morally certain of the evidence and the relevant theology applied to the evidence are bound, as we are all bound to what we are certain is true.  

    But whether one sees the truth of this or not, the Pope has not bound any Catholic to this.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #142 on: July 02, 2013, 01:48:17 AM »
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    * Do you believe it's possible to have a less-than-saintly pope on Peter's throne? How about a man who has committed, or who commits, sin? How about a Pope who commits grave sin(s)? How about a man who personally holds some errors? Are you familiar with many Popes throughout Church history? How about Popes that lived before the 18th century?


    Yes, it is possible to have a very bad pope, even a public sinner.  History demonstrates this as well.  There is no arguing against a fact.

    A pope could hold a private error or perhaps innocently err on a matter of faith.  What he could not do, however is teach heresy or grave error to the universal Church.  we know this from the case of Pope John XXII, who erred but recanted.  He never taught his error to the universal Church.

    Catholics are bound to receive the teaching as given by the Pope to the universal Church with docility.  The Pope's teaching on matters of Faith and morals, even if it is non-infallible must be believed under pain of mortal sin.  The Pope's non-infallible universal teaching is guaranteed to be safe.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #143 on: July 02, 2013, 02:01:59 AM »
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    * How do you reconcile the notion that, in your estimation, the Catholic Church hasn't provided us laymen with any means of dealing with this unprecedented Crisis? Because as you see it, there is no Epikeia, no ability to disobey a lawful pope, no supplied jurisdiction, etc.


    As laymen, we are the sheep of the Church, and other prayer and giving support to those who can end this crisis, we must wait.

    There are some who from the beginning of the crisis to our present day, who have the power of ending this crisis.  In the absence of the Cardinals, the power of election of the Pope falls to the hierarchy and the Roman clergy.  

    Both bodies must exist at all times within the Church.  The hierarchy cannot totally defect, nor the diocese of Rome.  This means that it is an impossibility that all members of the hierarchy have fallen into heresy, and likewise, some clergy of Rome must have kept the Faith, at a minimum, at least one.

    Adherence to an anti-pope would not mean that any of these men would have lost their offices.  So long as they have kept the Faith, and have not fallen into heresy, the are members of the Church, and maintain their offices.

    Sedevacantism does not deny the valid Catholic principles of epikeia or supplied jurisdiction.  

    There are instances in which a Catholic could is obey a true Pope, or any authority for that matter.  But, in our discussion, we are not talking about a bad pope, rather a public heretic claiming to be pope.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #144 on: July 02, 2013, 02:11:11 AM »
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    * What do you think of SSPX masses?

    * If the answer to the above question was in any way negative, please answer: How many SSPX priests have you met? How many SSPX Mass centers have you visited?


    I believe that SSPX masses are the Mass.  The celebrant's attachment to SSPX is irrelevant.  

    As I said in a previous post, the criteria that I use in deciding if I would go to a chapel are whether the priest has kept the Faith, is he schismatic, and is there any grave scandal from the priest or others at the chapel, especially to protect the children.

    The fact that the SSPX continues to "accept" these men as pope, still does not change the facts involved.  

    I would to this day go to most "SSPX" masses.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #145 on: July 02, 2013, 02:15:33 AM »
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    * Do you know of any holy independent/sedevacantist priests? If so, do you realize there are just as many holy SSPX priests? In general, priests are flawed men with a great office bestowed on them by God, and sanctity is always the exception rather than the rule. It has always been thus in the Catholic Church. That is why the Church declares who IS a saint, rather than who IS NOT a saint.


    Yes, I know of some priests who are CMRI and independent that I believe are holy.  I may add that I know of some SSPX clergy who I also believe are holy.  I can also add that I know some Byzantine Catholic priests who I believe are holy.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #146 on: July 02, 2013, 02:22:04 AM »
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    What do you think of Archbishop Lefebvre?


    I have always had the greatest respect and admiration for Archbishop Lefebvre.  He and Bp. De Castro Mayer were the only two members of the hierarchy that publicly stood up and actively resisted the anti-popes, and all of the heresy, grave errors, impious sacramental rites, evil laws, and scandals that came from them and those in league with them.

    I am in agreement with John Daly's thought s about Archbishop Lefebvre and sedevacantism given in this radio interview:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/restorationradio/2012/09/09/archbishop-lefebvre
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #147 on: July 02, 2013, 02:31:03 AM »
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    * What do you think of Rome-approved 1962 Masses? (FSSP, ICK, Indult, etc.)


    If the priest is validly ordained and if he believes the Catholic Faith, the the mass is a Catholic Mass.  The principles do not change.

    There are issues to consider before going to these masses, however.  Is there a risk of scandal if you are bringing your children?  Even if the priest has the faith, could he scandalize your children by citing modern fasting rules, praising the "pope," etc.

    Secondly, are you certain the hosts in the tabernacle are consecrated by the certainly valid priest, or is there a chance that the hosts were consecrated by a priest ordained either in the Paul VI rite or by a bishop consecrated in the Paul VI rite or both.

    As a general rule, I would not go to churches run by these groups.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #148 on: July 02, 2013, 02:41:11 AM »
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    * What edition of the Missale Romanum does your ideal priest use? (1962, 1957, 1913, etc.)


    Ideally, the mass with the revisions of Pius XII.  But, as John XXIII was liberal, but not a public heretic, like Paul VI, the 1962 missal might be the law of the CHurch.

    This is a murky issue, as John XXIII may one day be declared an antipope for his numerous actions against the Faith.  

    In the absence of authority, I would rather retreat to the absolutely safe ground a Pope who not only believed the Faith, but loved the Faith.  John XXIII may not have been a public heretic, but he was scandalous and it was under him that the revolution began.

    With that said, however, any argument against his claim to be pope is not air tight, and for that reason, I would happily go to a mass with the 1962 missal.

    Archbishop Lefebvre kept to the 1962 missal, it was the last revision before the crisis took hold, and more importantly prior to Paul VI.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    So You Decided To Become A Sedevacantist
    « Reply #149 on: July 02, 2013, 02:45:24 AM »
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    * How many true priests/bishops/cardinals exist? A handful? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?


    Cardinals:  none
    Bishops:  some, but I don't know how many
    Priests:  I believe thousands of priests have kept the Faith.

    In the above I am speaking only of bishops and priests with a mission, not the traditional clergy.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic