Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: awkwardcustomer on October 10, 2014, 04:25:56 PM
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Sister Lucy spent the last three decades of her life in a Novus Ordo convent and presumably attended the Novus Ordo Mass every day. Why don't we follow her example?
Because, Traditionalists reject Vatican II and its liturgical and doctrinal changes. But Sister Lucy obviously didn't reject Vatican II. Not once did she speak out against it. I have just watched a recording of the beatification ceremony for Jacinta and Franciso. And there is Sister Lucy, adoring JPII. Do Trads adore JPII?
Whenever I ask this question, Traditionalists always say that Sister Lucy was under a vow of obedience. But if Vatican II was as disastrous for the Church as Trads maintain, then surely Sister Lucy should have discerned this and walked out of her convent, which she could have done at any time. What a message that would have sent to the Conciliarists.
Instead she remained and didn't once speak out against the disastrous changes introduced by the Council. And if obedience to her Vatican II embracing superiors was such a virtue, why aren't Trads obedient to Vatican II embracing bishops and priests.
If Our Lady did indeed choose Sister Lucy to be her messenger - and to announce the 'miracle of the sun', the greatest public miracle since biblical times - does this mean that Our Lady approved of Sister Lucy's silence on the disaster of Vatican II? If so, should Trads also remain silent? And if not, why not?
Some will say that Sister Lucy was a simple peasant girl who could not have fully understood the havoc that Vatican II was causing. But if she was as simple as that, and too simple to appreciate the devastation Vatican II was causing inside her convent, then why listen to anything she had to say?
Something isn't right about Fatima.
IMHO
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Many trads believe that Sister Lucy died and was replaced by an imposter. This would explain why she followed the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, because it wasn't really her. There are several threads on this site about it with pictures of the real Lucy and the imposter and they do look like two different people. I believe Tradition in Action has an article about it also.
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Matto said,
Many trads believe that Sister Lucy died and was replaced by an imposter. This would explain why she followed the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, because it wasn't really her. There are several threads on this site about it with pictures of the real Lucy and the imposter and they do look like two different people. I believe Tradition in Action has an article about it also.
Ah yes, I forgot about that one - the fake Sister Lucy!!! I've read the articles on Tradition in Action and seen the pictures.
Sorry, Matto, but this is just ludicrous. Do Trads really have to come up with such nonsense in order to explain one of the contradictions at the heart of Fatima?
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It's one or the other, isn't it?
Either she was fake (and the heart of Roman freemasons is black as can be, and capable of anything), or - going by your initial statement a.c. - something is desperately wrong. I fear we will never know until all is revealed.
In the meantime, the fruits of Fatima are good and holy vs., for example, Medjugorje, wouldn't you say?
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I think it is more ludicrous that Sister Lucy would attend the Novus Ordo than to think she was replaced by an imposter.
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The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
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PerEvangelicaDicta said,
It's one or the other, isn't it?
Either she was fake (and the heart of Roman freemasons is black as can be, and capable of anything), or - going by your initial statement a.c. - something is desperately wrong. I fear we will never know until all is revealed.
In the meantime, the fruits of Fatima are good and holy vs., for example, Medjugorje, wouldn't you say?
You've summed up my dilemma. Either a fake Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo Mass for all those years in a Novus Ordo convent, and never once spoke out against Vatican II, or something is desperately wrong with Fatima.
Meanwhile, what exactly are the fruits of Fatima? To me, they seem to amount to little more than an endless fretting over the Consecration of Russia and the period of peace that is supposed to follow. Didn't the real Sister Lucy quote Our Lady as saying, in the Second Secret, that,
"... In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."
Matto said,
I think it is more ludicrous that Sister Lucy would attend the Novus Ordo than to think she was replaced by an imposter.
How about if the real Sister Lucy was deceived? What if Fatima is a deception, a decoy, intended to keep Catholics, particularly Traditionalists, distracted from what's really going on - which is the rise of the Antichrist? After all, there have been 'miracles of the sun' reported at Medjugurje. There was also a 'miracle of the sun' reported in 2013 in the Philipinnes on 'Divine Mercy' Sunday. What if Vatican II is actually the 'revolt' that St Paul refers to in 2Thessalonians 2:3?
Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Do you have a source for this? Can this be proved?
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Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the date that Sister Lucy made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite?
I found the following on the EWTN website.
In 1946, seeking a more contemplative life, Lucia entered the Carmelite convent of St. Teresa in Coimbra, where she made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite on May 31, 1949. She took the name Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart.
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/children/lucia.htm
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I clearly remember a video of sister lucy receiving communion from John Paul 2, standing and on the tongue, and then immediately grabbing his hand and arm in some sort of swooning celebrity hugging moment.
Struck me as very odd at the time, since it was an inappropriate thing to do, given she has just received Our Lord, or, at least, thought she did.
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Here is Sister Lucy at the beatification of Jacinta and Francisco in 2000.
Fast forward to 12.04 and you will see her meeting JPII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFBpK-jPdE
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Let me remind everyone, please! Catholics are not called to follow Sr. Lucy, we are called to follow Christ and His teachings, period.
Do you think Sister Lucy will be at your side when you stand before God, when He asks you, DID YOU KEEP THE FAITH?
If you want a pope that contradicts previous popes, then you have one. That is not what the Church teaches however. The pope does not change with the wind, times do not change Church teachings with ambiguous teachings. The popes do not speak with both sides of their mouth, the Catholic church is not a "one size fits all" organization.
How liberal can you get? Wake up before you die united to a fake religion.
Sister Lucy, pray for us!
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Here is Sister Lucy at the beatification of Jacinta and Francisco in 2000.
Fast forward to 12.04 and you will see her meeting JPII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFBpK-jPdE
The part where she puts the hat on her head is pretty much the last straw. I can't believe that is the true Sister Lucy.
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Are you sure she is the actual Sister Lucy. What evidence I have seen. I do not
think so.
The real Sister Lucy was removed before the New Order of Mass became official.
There has been the facial recognition proofs posted on CI in the archives.
See for yourself.
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Here is Sister Lucy at the beatification of Jacinta and Francisco in 2000.
Fast forward to 12.04 and you will see her meeting JPII.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFBpK-jPdE
Thanks, but I think what I recall was when he gave her communion at Mass, not merely kissing his hand at a private audience with him.
It was a very strange and irreverent thing to do at the moment of receiving communion.
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Just my observation, but before VII, she was very serious. The woman saw the holiest of visions, some of which were terrifying. Her demeanor - even as child - always reflected that.
In some pictures where she is somewhat smiling, it is in the manner of, say, St. Terese - solemn and dignified.
After VII, she seemed to be clownish and almost silly. I could never reconcile the two personas, they are so distinct, or that she participated in the new church. If she was privvy to visits of our Holy Mother, etc. she would not be part of the great deception.
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a.c., by the 'fruits of Fatima', I was referring to the concerted re-dedication of the Catholic world to an old and holy devotion. Unlike Garabandal or Medjugorje, the words recanted by the children do not indicate conflicts of Faith or questions re: the 'voice' of Our Holy Mother.
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Either a fake Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo Mass for all those years in a Novus Ordo convent, and never once spoke out against Vatican II, or something is desperately wrong with Fatima.
Or, option #3, the odious Novus Ordo Mass, while a clear attempt by modernists to overtake the Traditional Church, is still a legitimate mass that people can attend and receive the sacrament.
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Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the date that Sister Lucy made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite?
I found the following on the EWTN website.
In 1946, seeking a more contemplative life, Lucia entered the Carmelite convent of St. Teresa in Coimbra, where she made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite on May 31, 1949. She took the name Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart.
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/children/lucia.htm
Years ago you could go to the convent website and though written in Portugese you could see the death records for all the nuns. At the time it was all over the net that #265 was Sister Lucy. It gave here birth, town born, date of entry into the convent and her death. Each one was exactly as could be verified in any book on Fatima. Withing a year this site was taken down. I do remember printing the sheet that contained her record ( I just have to find it now.) I believe Tradition in Action mentions this site also.
EWTN is not reliable on tradition. HOWEVER for arguments sake lets say that's true.
Now wouldn't that be the perfect time to introduce a fake Sister Lucy. Think about it. No one at the new convent would know her, what she looks like or have any personal knowledge of her. They'd take her at face value. They couldn't have done that at her old convent.
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Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the date that Sister Lucy made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite?
I found the following on the EWTN website.
In 1946, seeking a more contemplative life, Lucia entered the Carmelite convent of St. Teresa in Coimbra, where she made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite on May 31, 1949. She took the name Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart.
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/children/lucia.htm
Years ago you could go to the convent website and though written in Portugese you could see the death records for all the nuns. At the time it was all over the net that #265 was Sister Lucy. It gave here birth, town born, date of entry into the convent and her death. Each one was exactly as could be verified in any book on Fatima. Withing a year this site was taken down. I do remember printing the sheet that contained her record ( I just have to find it now.) I believe Tradition in Action mentions this site also.
EWTN is not reliable on tradition. HOWEVER for arguments sake lets say that's true.
Now wouldn't that be the perfect time to introduce a fake Sister Lucy. Think about it. No one at the new convent would know her, what she looks like or have any personal knowledge of her. They'd take her at face value. They couldn't have done that at her old convent.
So you have an actual picture of it! I saw it once, too, and it was gone. So glad someone captured it. :jumping2: Oboyoboyoboy! I wanna see! :jumping2:
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PerEvangelicaDicta said,
It's one or the other, isn't it?
Either she was fake (and the heart of Roman freemasons is black as can be, and capable of anything), or - going by your initial statement a.c. - something is desperately wrong. I fear we will never know until all is revealed.
In the meantime, the fruits of Fatima are good and holy vs., for example, Medjugorje, wouldn't you say?
You've summed up my dilemma. Either a fake Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo Mass for all those years in a Novus Ordo convent, and never once spoke out against Vatican II, or something is desperately wrong with Fatima.
Meanwhile, what exactly are the fruits of Fatima? To me, they seem to amount to little more than an endless fretting over the Consecration of Russia and the period of peace that is supposed to follow. [/b] Didn't the real Sister Lucy quote Our Lady as saying, in the Second Secret, that,
"... In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."
Endless fretting over a direct request from Our Lady!!! its worth fretting over.
Replacing Sr Lucy with a fake in a closed convent is not beyond difficult when you have the resources available to Freemasons. She may have been a simple peasant girl but when threatened with her life she held fast to her faith and the revelation even at such a young age. There is no way that Our Lady would pick a weak Catholic girl in the first place and think of all the graces she would have received. There is no way that she would have gone along with Vatican II.
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Okay, the fake Sister Lucy ......
I have only one question to ask in response to the claims that the real Sister Lucy died, on an unspecified date, and was then replaced by a fake Sister Lucy who went along with Vatican II and all its dreadful reforms.
Why bother?
I mean, why would the Vatican do this? And why would it be worth the trouble? Suppose for the sake of argument that Sister Lucy did die in, say, 1951. Why wouldn't the Roman authorities leave it at that? She had already written down the Third Secret and given it to the local bishop. What was to be gained by setting up a fake Sister Lucy? Nothing, as far as I can see.
It could be argued that a fake Sister Lucy going along with Vatican II and attending the Novus Ordo Mass every day in a Novus Ordo convent, gave Vatican II an added legitimacy. But did the Conciliarists really need this? They had almost the entire hierarchy, including the pope, supporting the Council? They didn't need a fake Sister Lucy to go along with the reforms, never criticising them, adoring JPII as she did. They had all the support they needed, and some.
The fake Sister Lucy thesis is far too difficult to pull off successfully, even for the Conciliarists. Her early death would have suited them just as well. As for those photographs. Try comparing photos of someone in their eighties with photos of that same person in their twenties.
Many Trads find it hard to believe that Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo Mass every day in a Novus Ordo convent. They also find it hard to believe that the the nun shown adoring JPII at the beatification ceremony for Jacinta and Franceso is the real Sister Lucy.
Well I'm sorry, but if Trads have to make up a story about a fake Sister Lucy in order to save Fatima, then what does that say about Fatima?
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stbrigidswell said,
Endless fretting over a direct request from Our Lady!!! its worth fretting over.
Replacing Sr Lucy with a fake in a closed convent is not beyond difficult when you have the resources available to Freemasons. She may have been a simple peasant girl but when threatened with her life she held fast to her faith and the revelation even at such a young age. There is no way that Our Lady would pick a weak Catholic girl in the first place and think of all the graces she would have received. There is no way that she would have gone along with Vatican II.
But we don't know for sure that the Consecration of Russia was a direct request from Our Lady. We only have Sister Lucy's word for it, and no-one else's, the same Sister Lucy who accepted Vatican II - in public, remember!
Was there no-one still alive in the year 2000 who had known Sister Lucy when she was growing up? Wouldn't they have seen her, either while watching the beatification ceremony for Jacinta and Francisco on television, or while attending the ceremony in person?
And did no family member or person from her village ever try to visit Sister Lucy after she had died and been replaced by a fake? Or were they all in on the plot too?
And who was this fake anyway? Does anyone have any idea who she was? Did she have childhood friends and family? Wouldn't they have recognised her as being the fake Sister lucy? Or were they also in on the plot?
That's a lot of people who either have to be silenced, or who are part of the conspiracy. I'm quite open to conspiracy theories, but this one is going too far.
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Let me remind everyone, please! Catholics are not called to follow Sr. Lucy, we are called to follow Christ and His teachings, period.
Do you think Sister Lucy will be at your side when you stand before God, when He asks you, DID YOU KEEP THE FAITH?
This is the most sensible thing that I have read in this entire thread. Both sides, starting in the very first post, are putting far too much weight on what Sister Lucy did and did not do. Was Sister Lucy a pope or otherwise infallible? NO. Does anything about Fatima guarantee that Sister Lucy would never sin? NO. Did many good Catholics get duped (mainly by virtue of being "obedient") into following the conciliarists and its "popes?" YES. Is it possible that Sister Lucy was one of those good Catholics who obediently followed the path of conciliardom? YES. If so, does that make conciliardom right or acceptable? HELL NO!!!!
awkwardcustomer's initial post invited you all into proceeding as though Sister Lucy was some sort of sinless, divine, infallible persona, and y'all (laughably) fell for it. I argue with heretics all the time accusing Catholics of thinking that the saints are divine. You sound as though if it were unequivocally proven to you that Sister Lucy attended NO "masses" and "sacraments," that you would suddenly decide that conciliardom is perfectly fine. And that's what awkwardcustomer baited you for.
I don't know for sure (nor do any of you), but I expect she did and that she was who ggreg saw all giddy with JPII. But that's absolutely MEANINGLESS as an indication of whether the NO is good or not. Just like this whole thread--MEANINGLESS--not worth a $#!+ for anything.
And then somebody like Hirsch comes strolling by who has been putting sentences together and making a little sense of late, and he has a relapse and takes this Sister Lucy's actions as the golden nugget of an indicator that the NO and its sacraments are acceptable. UGH!!
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So my Sacraments and all the times I went to NO Mass doesn't count??
Where were traditional Catholics to be "apostolic" and reach out to Catholics.
There were knocks on our door and it wasn't traditional Catholics.
There were invitations to churches not by traditional Catholics.
History shows us that there were Popes who were in error sin or herectics.
Well got to go. Going to Rosary Rally with Father Romanowski who no longer does the Vatican II
Mass but the Latin Mass. Our Lady of Fatima pray for us!!
Deo gratias!
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Doesn't anyone think it's possible that Sister Lucy in 2000 was an old lady with dementia? Even saints can go senile. I saw the beatification ceremony when it was broadcast, I thought Lucy acted strange(I remember her waving strangely at the crowd). But the reason doesn't haven't to be that Lucy was an imposter, or that Fatima is a fraud. Maybe she was acting like what she, in fact, was- an old lady in her dotage. What was she, 90 plus years old?
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OHCA said,
....Both sides, starting in the very first post, are putting far too much weight on what Sister Lucy did and did not do. Was Sister Lucy a pope or otherwise infallible? NO. Does anything about Fatima guarantee that Sister Lucy would never sin? NO. Did many good Catholics get duped (mainly by virtue of being "obedient") into following the conciliarists and its "popes?" YES. Is it possible that Sister Lucy was one of those good Catholics who obediently followed the path of conciliardom? YES. If so, does that make conciliardom right or acceptable? HELL NO!!!!
awkwardcustomer's initial post invited you all into proceeding as though Sister Lucy was some sort of sinless, divine, infallible persona, and y'all (laughably) fell for it. I argue with heretics all the time accusing Catholics of thinking that the saints are divine. You sound as though if it were unequivocally proven to you that Sister Lucy attended NO "masses" and "sacraments," that you would suddenly decide that conciliardom is perfectly fine. And that's what awkwardcustomer baited you for.
I don't know for sure (nor do any of you), but I expect she did and that she was who ggreg saw all giddy with JPII. But that's absolutely MEANINGLESS as an indication of whether the NO is good or not. Just like this whole thread--MEANINGLESS--not worth a $#!+ for anything.
And then somebody like Hirsch comes strolling by who has been putting sentences together and making a little sense of late, and he has a relapse and takes this Sister Lucy's actions as the golden nugget of an indicator that the NO and its sacraments are acceptable. UGH!!
Excuse me, but I didn't bait anyone for anything. If you object to the topic of this thread and choose to declare it "MEANINGLESS" in a loud voice, and "not worth a "$#!+", then that's up to you. But I think you have misunderstood the point of this topic.
My questions were not intended to demonstrate that the Novus Ordo Mass is acceptable because Sister Lucy attended it. Most certainly not. They were intended to ask whether or not someone is worthy of belief given that they attended the Novus Ordo Mass every day for over thirty years in a Novus Ordo convent, while never once objecting the Vatican II and its reforms.
There is no suggestion here that Sister Lucy should have been entirely perfect and sinless, or needed to be in order to be believed. But the three secrets of Fatima, and more besides, are entirely dependent on the testimony of Sister Lucy and no-one else. Catholics, especially Traditionalists, put a lot of weight on her testimony and are entitled to consider her conduct in the post Vatican II years regarding the reforms introduced by the Council.
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And then somebody like Hirsch comes strolling by who has been putting sentences together and making a little sense of late, and he has a relapse and takes this Sister Lucy's actions as the golden nugget of an indicator that the NO and its sacraments are acceptable. UGH!!
Bah! Everyone's throwing every wild speculation on the table except THAT ONE. As if every law of physics would prevent the Novus Ordo from being a valid Mass. Every speculation, no matter how kooky, is welcomed onto the table of this discussion except THAT ONE.
And just to clarify, I did not say that the Novus Ordo Mass is acceptable. I said it is legitimate.
I do not think the Novus Ordo Mass is acceptable. At least, not to me personally, which is why I attend Tridentine Latin Mass through my diocese. The Novus Ordo Mass should be done away with forever, and it is a clear mark of Modernism's assaults on the Church. It is likely that it is odious to God, and when I think of it, I liken it to being fed from a garbage can. You can survive, but it is a pathetic way to celebrate a Consecrated Host.
It has always been obvious that I do not like the Novus Ordo Mass, and that it should be gotten rid of, among other problems in the Church.
My guess is that Lucy was a prisoner of sorts, and probably a simple woman who didn't know any better.
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She also saw Hell and knew the Third Secret of Fatima. One might therefore realistically think, regardless of how simple she was, that if Fatima in anyway whatsoever suggested that the Church would lose its way, then she would have known not to go along with it
And if Fatima's third didn't warn against that, or at least imply it, then what relevance does it have to us in 2014?
Because for the last 25 years THAT is the problem we are facing? Not primarily immodest fashions or the errors of Russia, but the total abandonment of the Church's mission to teach morality and save souls.
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She also saw Hell and knew the Third Secret of Fatima. One might therefore realistically think, regardless of how simple she was, that if Fatima in anyway whatsoever suggested that the Church would lose its way, then she would have known not to go along with it
And if Fatima's third didn't warn against that, or at least imply it, then what relevance does it have to us in 2014?
Because for the last 25 years THAT is the problem we are facing? Not primarily immodest fashions or the errors of Russia, but the total abandonment of the Church's mission to teach morality and save souls.
True. Common sense would have us think she surely would've seen this.
However, maybe she was dense. Many people are. The very existence of people who continue to attend Novus Ordo--in spite of being told of what it is, its nature, and its effects on the Church--the very existence of these people is a testament to the fact that people can be dense.
Or...
Another possibility is that she recognized that the Novus Ordo, while odious, is legitimate, yet she was only allowed to attend N.O. Mass.
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She also saw Hell and knew the Third Secret of Fatima. One might therefore realistically think, regardless of how simple she was, that if Fatima in anyway whatsoever suggested that the Church would lose its way, then she would have known not to go along with it
And if Fatima's third didn't warn against that, or at least imply it, then what relevance does it have to us in 2014?
Because for the last 25 years THAT is the problem we are facing? Not primarily immodest fashions or the errors of Russia, but the total abandonment of the Church's mission to teach morality and save souls.
This.
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I like this discussion. Because I do not believe it was the same Sister Lucy in 2000 than
in 1949.
They were entirely two different people. And for what reason, to obscure the real
importance of the messages of our Lady of Fatima.
The modernists treat Fatima at no great importance, and now it is an ecuмenical
shrine that includes false and pagan religions.
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If Our Lady did indeed choose Sister Lucy to be her messenger - and to announce the 'miracle of the sun', the greatest public miracle since biblical times - does this mean that Our Lady approved of Sister Lucy's silence on the disaster of Vatican II? If so, should Trads also remain silent? And if not, why not?
Because she was a mere fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature.
Either Fatima must be false, or we, at least by default, should fall in line and accept the bastardized "mass" and "sacraments?" Not true.
But if Fatima is true and conciliardom is despicable in His eyes, then why would God have let His instrument for the Fatima message to march into conciliardom? I claim not to know the mind of the Lord, nor to have counseled Him.
I am bit of a skeptic about Fatima, too. But the tenor set by the title and initial post is that if Fatima is true, then there's no conceivable reason that Lucy shouldn't be followed into the NO. That, in turn, elicited responses dealing with Lucy-gate (a/k/a fake Lucy) and dribble about how the real Lucy would never have participated in conciliardom.
The implication is that if Lucy is this saint-like figure, then she should be followed into conciliardom. I would sooner follow Padre Pio, Archbishop Fulton Sheen, etc. other "good" priests and bishops into conciliardom. But I recognize that all of these people are mere fallible mortals of free will and sinful nature, and do not find the example of any human being strong enough to take me down that path.
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So my Sacraments and all the times I went to NO Mass doesn't count??
Where were traditional Catholics to be "apostolic" and reach out to Catholics.
There were knocks on our door and it wasn't traditional Catholics.
There were invitations to churches not by traditional Catholics.
As to your reference to the NO "sacraments" and "mass," I ultimately found the fullness of the Faith and true Catholicism. I can't help but think that I would have been much less likely to have done so away from conciliardom (the only Catholicism that I knew at the time).
But now that I realize the doubtfulness of the NO "mass and "sacraments" and that the NO is exponentially more sacrilegious than I had known before, it would be a grave sin for me to return.
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If Our Lady did indeed choose Sister Lucy to be her messenger - and to announce the 'miracle of the sun', the greatest public miracle since biblical times - does this mean that Our Lady approved of Sister Lucy's silence on the disaster of Vatican II? If so, should Trads also remain silent? And if not, why not?
Because she was a mere fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature.
Either Fatima must be false, or we, at least by default, should fall in line and accept the bastardized "mass" and "sacraments?" Not true.
But if Fatima is true and conciliardom is despicable in His eyes, then why would God have let His instrument for the Fatima message to march into conciliardom? I claim not to know the mind of the Lord, nor to have counseled Him.
I am bit of a skeptic about Fatima, too. But the tenor set by the title and initial post is that if Fatima is true, then there's no conceivable reason that Lucy shouldn't be followed into the NO. That, in turn, elicited responses dealing with Lucy-gate (a/k/a fake Lucy) and dribble about how the real Lucy would never have participated in conciliardom.
The implication is that if Lucy is this saint-like figure, then she should be followed into conciliardom. I would sooner follow Padre Pio, Archbishop Fulton Sheen, etc. other "good" priests and bishops into conciliardom. But I recognize that all of these people are mere fallible mortals of free will and sinful nature, and do not find the example of any human being strong enough to take me down that path.
Why not just choose someone stubborn and with a visceral dislike of fαɢɢօtry and hand-wringing modernist bullshit, like me? I am sure in the Global population they could find someone like this.
Imagine if Sister Lucia had joined Marcel Lefebvre in 1973. Or written to the Media about the critical deadline in 1961 and the earth-shaking implications of the Pope's disobedience. That would have caused a HUGE focus on the problem.
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OHCA said,
Because she [Sister Lucy] was a mere fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature.
Either Fatima must be false, or we, at least by default, should fall in line and accept the bastardized "mass" and "sacraments?" Not true.......
.... The implication is that if Lucy is this saint-like figure, then she should be followed into conciliardom.....
Do people have to be saints to recognise the errors of Vatican II? I'm not a saint. Are you? And yet we both recognise Vatican II for what it is. Aren't all Traditionalists "fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature"?
Traditionalists, who are not saints, reject Vatican II. Sister Lucy, who is not a saint either, accepted Vatican II by attending the Novus Ordo Mass every day in a Novus Ordo convent and never speaking out against the Council. Surely that is ample reason for Traditionalists to question Sister Lucy.
Your whole argument here seems to be based on Sister Lucy not being saint-like enough to reject Vatican II, that she was a fallible human being, like the rest of us, and that we shouldn't expect sinless perfection from her. In my twenty years in the Church, I've never met a Traditionalist who claimed to be a saint. But from what I've observed and studied, Traditionalists can at least claim to have enough Catholic sense, Catholic common sense, to recognise Vatican II for what it is.
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Sister Lucy. I wouldn't expect Sister Lucy to demonstrate saint-like perfection. But I would hope that she could at least have displayed the kind of Catholic common sense that Traditionalists display by rejecting Vatican II and all its errors.
And yes, Sister Lucy's behaviour does make me question Fatima. The veracity, or otherwise, of the three secrets depends entirely on the testimony of Sister Lucy, and no-one else. Why should I believe the words of someone who spent over thirty years as a Novus Ordo nun?
You also said,
..... But if Fatima is true and conciliardom is despicable in His eyes, then why would God have let His instrument for the Fatima message to march into conciliardom? I claim not to know the mind of the Lord, nor to have counseled Him......
My problem is that I find it almost impossible to believe that God would have let His instrument march into conciliardom. Therefore my logic tells me that Sister Lucy cannot have been God's instrument. I could be wrong, of course. But I cannot reconcile Sister Lucy being God's instrument with her embracing of conciliardom.
ggreg said,
Imagine if Sister Lucia had joined Marcel Lefebvre in 1973. Or written to the Media about the critical deadline in 1961 and the earth-shaking implications of the Pope's disobedience. That would have caused a HUGE focus on the problem.
Exactly. Just imagine if Sister Lucy had walked out of her Novus Ordo convent and joined Archbishop Lefebvre. What a message that would have sent.
Alas, she didn't.
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Dear awkward, if you don't believe in Fatima, that is your choice, most here do believe in the message of Fatima and it does have Church approval, although the apparition was never declared dogma. Yet, the message of Fatima is Biblical. Penance, amendment of life, and prayer, is that what you object too?
Many of the apostles did not agree about things, read the book of Acts. Things that were not dogma, yet they all served God, with the exception of Judas, but then he was replaced. Proving no one is indispensable.
What difference does it really make, when Sister Lucy died, she, Sister Lucy has gone to her eternity, she has been judged and rewarded, so why are you even here putting doubt in the minds of those who are trying to live their Faith by obeying the message of Fatima?
What is your real point? I wonder!
My problem is that I find it almost impossible to believe that God would have let His instrument march into conciliardom. Therefore my logic tells me that Sister Lucy cannot have been God's instrument. I could be wrong, of course. But I cannot reconcile Sister Lucy being God's instrument with her embracing of conciliardom.
Why not, she was human, as long as she kept the Faith. There was a time when most of us embraced conciliarism, but we kept the Faith, and God brought us out of it with His grace. His timing is most perfect for all of us. Sister Lucy died in His grace that I am sure of.
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Dear awkward, if you don't believe in Fatima, that is your choice, most here do believe in the message of Fatima and it does have Church approval, although the apparition was never declared dogma. Yet, the message of Fatima is Biblical. Penance, amendment of life, and prayer, is that what you object too?
Many of the apostles did not agree about things, read the book of Acts. Things that were not dogma, yet they all served God, with the exception of Judas, but then he was replaced. Proving no one is indispensable.
What difference does it really make, when Sister Lucy died, she, Sister Lucy has gone to her eternity, she has been judged and rewarded, so why are you even here putting doubt in the minds of those who are trying to live their Faith by obeying the message of Fatima?
What is your real point? I wonder!
My problem is that I find it almost impossible to believe that God would have let His instrument march into conciliardom. Therefore my logic tells me that Sister Lucy cannot have been God's instrument. I could be wrong, of course. But I cannot reconcile Sister Lucy being God's instrument with her embracing of conciliardom.
Why not, she was human, as long as she kept the Faith. There was a time when most of us embraced conciliarism, but we kept the Faith, and God brought us out of it with His grace. His timing is most perfect for all of us. Sister Lucy died in His grace that I am sure of.
This made me think of St Vincent Ferrer. God allowed him to follow an anti-pope for a time and still made him a saint.
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Did st. Vincent Ferrer die following an anti-pope?
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Did st. Vincent Ferrer die following an anti-pope?
No. Do we know the mind of Sister Lucia when she died?
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OHCA said,
Because she [Sister Lucy] was a mere fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature.
Either Fatima must be false, or we, at least by default, should fall in line and accept the bastardized "mass" and "sacraments?" Not true.......
.... The implication is that if Lucy is this saint-like figure, then she should be followed into conciliardom.....
Do people have to be saints to recognise the errors of Vatican II? I'm not a saint. Are you? And yet we both recognise Vatican II for what it is. Aren't all Traditionalists "fallible sinful creature with free will, borne of, and unpreserved from, original sin and man's fallen nature"?
Traditionalists, who are not saints, reject Vatican II. Sister Lucy, who is not a saint either, accepted Vatican II by attending the Novus Ordo Mass every day in a Novus Ordo convent and never speaking out against the Council. Surely that is ample reason for Traditionalists to question Sister Lucy.
Your whole argument here seems to be based on Sister Lucy not being saint-like enough to reject Vatican II, that she was a fallible human being, like the rest of us, and that we shouldn't expect sinless perfection from her. In my twenty years in the Church, I've never met a Traditionalist who claimed to be a saint. But from what I've observed and studied, Traditionalists can at least claim to have enough Catholic sense, Catholic common sense, to recognise Vatican II for what it is.
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Sister Lucy. I wouldn't expect Sister Lucy to demonstrate saint-like perfection. But I would hope that she could at least have displayed the kind of Catholic common sense that Traditionalists display by rejecting Vatican II and all its errors.
And yes, Sister Lucy's behaviour does make me question Fatima. The veracity, or otherwise, of the three secrets depends entirely on the testimony of Sister Lucy, and no-one else. Why should I believe the words of someone who spent over thirty years as a Novus Ordo nun?
You also said,
..... But if Fatima is true and conciliardom is despicable in His eyes, then why would God have let His instrument for the Fatima message to march into conciliardom? I claim not to know the mind of the Lord, nor to have counseled Him......
My problem is that I find it almost impossible to believe that God would have let His instrument march into conciliardom. Therefore my logic tells me that Sister Lucy cannot have been God's instrument. I could be wrong, of course. But I cannot reconcile Sister Lucy being God's instrument with her embracing of conciliardom.
ggreg said,
Imagine if Sister Lucia had joined Marcel Lefebvre in 1973. Or written to the Media about the critical deadline in 1961 and the earth-shaking implications of the Pope's disobedience. That would have caused a HUGE focus on the problem.
Exactly. Just imagine if Sister Lucy had walked out of her Novus Ordo convent and joined Archbishop Lefebvre. What a message that would have sent.
Alas, she didn't.
The notion of your thread, "If Fatima is real; and if Sister Lucy followed then NO; then we too should follow the NO," attributes to such an instrument of the Lord used at Fatima as being God-like, omniscient, sinless, and infallible. I used the term saint-like as a rough summary. But this even goes beyond saint-like.
The whole notion that you posit is that if Fatima is real, then Sister would not have, or could not have, marched into conciliardom if doing so was wrong. This does not follow. But why would God have let it play out like this?
Consider Romans 11:33-34
[33] O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways! [34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counsellor?
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Let me remind everyone, please! Catholics are not called to follow Sr. Lucy, we are called to follow Christ and His teachings, period.
Do you think Sister Lucy will be at your side when you stand before God, when He asks you, DID YOU KEEP THE FAITH?
This is the most sensible thing that I have read in this entire thread. Both sides, starting in the very first post, are putting far too much weight on what Sister Lucy did and did not do. Was Sister Lucy a pope or otherwise infallible? NO. Does anything about Fatima guarantee that Sister Lucy would never sin? NO. Did many good Catholics get duped (mainly by virtue of being "obedient") into following the conciliarists and its "popes?" YES. Is it possible that Sister Lucy was one of those good Catholics who obediently followed the path of conciliardom? YES. If so, does that make conciliardom right or acceptable? HELL NO!!!!
awkwardcustomer's initial post invited you all into proceeding as though Sister Lucy was some sort of sinless, divine, infallible persona, and y'all (laughably) fell for it. I argue with heretics all the time accusing Catholics of thinking that the saints are divine. You sound as though if it were unequivocally proven to you that Sister Lucy attended NO "masses" and "sacraments," that you would suddenly decide that conciliardom is perfectly fine. And that's what awkwardcustomer baited you for.
I don't know for sure (nor do any of you), but I expect she did and that she was who ggreg saw all giddy with JPII. But that's absolutely MEANINGLESS as an indication of whether the NO is good or not. Just like this whole thread--MEANINGLESS--not worth a $#!+ for anything.
And then somebody like Hirsch comes strolling by who has been putting sentences together and making a little sense of late, and he has a relapse and takes this Sister Lucy's actions as the golden nugget of an indicator that the NO and its sacraments are acceptable. UGH!!
Thank you.
Some folks put way too much into private revelations anyway. This thread is a good reason why I try not to get too involved with them.
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If I saw real Hell and souls falling into it, I would be the most sinless person alive.
And I was thinking of Sister Lucy. If I knew the contents of the Third Secret, I
would be the most sinless person alive, and I am thinking about Sister Lucy.
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If I saw real Hell and souls falling into it, I would be the most sinless person alive.
And I was thinking of Sister Lucy. If I knew the contents of the Third Secret, I
would be the most sinless person alive, and I am thinking about Sister Lucy.
Then if you were deluded into thinking conciliarist "popes" have been true popes and that being separated from them meant being separated from the true Church, then you would have been skipping down the aisle with Sister Lucy. That's how I was born and came of age in conciliardom.
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MyrnaM said,
Dear awkward, if you don't believe in Fatima, that is your choice, most here do believe in the message of Fatima and it does have Church approval, although the apparition was never declared dogma. Yet, the message of Fatima is Biblical. Penance, amendment of life, and prayer, is that what you object too?
Many of the apostles did not agree about things, read the book of Acts. Things that were not dogma, yet they all served God, with the exception of Judas, but then he was replaced. Proving no one is indispensable.
What difference does it really make, when Sister Lucy died, she, Sister Lucy has gone to her eternity, she has been judged and rewarded, so why are you even here putting doubt in the minds of those who are trying to live their Faith by obeying the message of Fatima?
What is your real point? I wonder!
How could I object to the Catholic parts of the Fatima message? Why would you imply that I would? And is your reference to Judas meant to suggest something about me? What is your real point, I wonder!
Did Catholics in 1917 need a 'miracle of the sun' to remind them of the need for penance, amendment of life and prayer? Perhaps they did. Do Catholics still need this 'miracle' to remind them of this? Perhaps they do. If so, then fine. The Catholic parts of the Fatima message are not the issue here.
The problem is that most Catholics today have succuмbed to Vatican II, despite the Fatima message. And judging by appearances, so did Sister Lucy, who announced the 'miracle of the sun'. I find that perplexing to say the least. What's more, many more Catholics have abandoned the Faith altogether, again despite the Fatima message.
But surely the main point of the Fatima message is not the Catholic part. It is the Secret, particularly parts two and three. According to Sister Lucy, Our Lady said in part two:
..... In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.
Do you believe this is going to happen? Many Traditionalists do - I've met them. How many hours, days, months, years have Traditionalists spent anticipating the consecration of Russia, praying for it, expecting it to happen only to be disappointed yet again? How many conferences have been held, apostolates been formed, articles been written, all on the subject of whether or not Russia has actually been consecrated, when it will be, which pope will do it?
As for part three of the Secret - how much time have Traditionalists spent agonising over whether or not it has actually been revealed? How many books have been published claiming Vatican cօռspιʀαcιҽs? I have one in my possession, by Christopher Ferrara, titled 'The Secret: Still Hidden'.
This is the part of the Fatima message that I question.
As for your accusation that I am "putting doubt in the minds of those who are trying to live their Faith by obeying the message of Fatima" - penance, amendment of life and prayer are Catholic and their practice does not depend on Fatima.
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Firstly I am shocked that you thought the Judas reference was meant for you. I only mentioned his name because if I didn't someone would come along to correct me, for saying they "ALL" served God.
The problem is that most Catholics today have succuмbed to Vatican II, despite the Fatima message. And judging by appearances, so did Sister Lucy, who announced the 'miracle of the sun'. I find that perplexing to say the least. What's more, many more Catholics have abandoned the Faith altogether, again despite the Fatima message.
I find that perplexing to say the least. What's more, many more Catholics have abandoned the Faith altogether, again despite the Fatima message.
So, most Israelites succuмbed to the old covenant even after Jesus proved He was the Messiah.
..... In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.
Do you believe this is going to happen?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe its not the end yet... at least not the end in the eyes of God. It only makes sense that in the end SHE WILL REIGN. With or without Fatima.
Who put you in charge of when the end will be? Why worry about it, your end will come when you die, as mine will. We are called to think of that, till then pray for your loved ones. As the Bible says, "Watch and Pray".
I suggest your write to Christopher Ferrara for answers, since he is the one who wrote your book that you put so much faith in.
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MyrnaM said,
Firstly I am shocked that you thought the Judas reference was meant for you. I only mentioned his name because if I didn't someone would come along to correct me, for saying they "ALL" served God.
Fair enough.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe its not the end yet... at least not the end in the eyes of God. It only makes sense that in the end SHE WILL REIGN. With or without Fatima.
I thought that in the end CHRIST WILL REIGN. Have I got that wrong?
What I was asking was - do you believe that the Holy Father will consecrate Russia, that Russia will be converted and that a period of peace will be granted to the world?
This is part of the message of Fatima. According to Sister Lucy, this is what Our Lady said. Do you believe this will happen?
Who put you in charge of when the end will be? Why worry about it, your end will come when you die, as mine will. We are called to think of that, till then pray for your loved ones. As the Bible says, "Watch and Pray".
I don't recall saying that anyone put me in charge of when the end will be.
I suggest your write to Christopher Ferrara for answers, since he is the one who wrote your book that you put so much faith in.
And I don't recall saying that I put any faith at all in Christopher Ferrara's book. I mentioned it as an example of the time and effort that has been spent on the Secret of Fatima.
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OHCA said,
The notion of your thread, "If Fatima is real; and if Sister Lucy followed then NO; then we too should follow the NO," attributes to such an instrument of the Lord used at Fatima as being God-like, omniscient, sinless, and infallible. I used the term saint-like as a rough summary. But this even goes beyond saint-like.
The whole notion that you posit is that if Fatima is real, then Sister would not have, or could not have, marched into conciliardom if doing so was wrong. This does not follow. But why would God have let it play out like this?
So, the popes, the cardinals, the bishops, priests, monks, nuns who marched into conciliardom - they are all just fallible human beings, marked by original sin, imperfect but not essentially at fault.
Because that is where your argument leads.
Furthermore, in order to resist the march into conciliardom, Sister Lucy would have had to have been - "God-like, omniscient, sinless, and infallible" - to use your own words.
Where does that leave Traditionalists who reject Vatican II?
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OHCA said,
The notion of your thread, "If Fatima is real; and if Sister Lucy followed then NO; then we too should follow the NO," attributes to such an instrument of the Lord used at Fatima as being God-like, omniscient, sinless, and infallible. I used the term saint-like as a rough summary. But this even goes beyond saint-like.
The whole notion that you posit is that if Fatima is real, then Sister would not have, or could not have, marched into conciliardom if doing so was wrong. This does not follow. But why would God have let it play out like this?
So, the popes, the cardinals, the bishops, priests, monks, nuns who marched into conciliardom - they are all just fallible human beings, marked by original sin, imperfect but not essentially at fault.
Because that is where your argument leads.
Furthermore, in order to resist the march into conciliardom, Sister Lucy would have had to have been - "God-like, omniscient, sinless, and infallible" - to use your own words.
Where does that leave Traditionalists who reject Vatican II?
You are a knucklehead and you're putting words in my mouth.
What you posited in your titling this thread, at it's essence, is that anyone who believes in "Fatima" should follow Lucy's NO example. Are you too dumb to realize that the implication of your question is that if Fatima is true, then the NO must be right because of Lucy's example? What does one have to do with the other? You're query assumes that if Fatima is true, then the NO must be good because of Lucy's example. The only way that that would necessarily be true would be if Lucy was God-like, omniscient, infallible, and sinless, which she was not.
". . . are all . . . imperfect but not essentially at fault.
"Because that is where your argument leads."
Try some rather than all, Logic-King.
I did not say that Lucy would have had to have been God-like, omniscient, infallible, sinless, etc., to have avoided marching into conciliardom. I am saying that she would have, in addition to being a mere instrument in Fatima (if it's even real), would have had to have been those things for the faithful to have rightfully blindly marched into conciliardom solely based on her example. You're saying that if Fatima is true, then the NO is necessarily good based on Lucy's example. That's the biggest bunch of horseshit logic that I can imagine at the moment.
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Of course Christ will reign, see my avatar for a better understanding of what I meant.
I thought that in the end CHRIST WILL REIGN. Have I got that wrong?
What I was asking was - do you believe that the Holy Father will consecrate Russia, that Russia will be converted and that a period of peace will be granted to the world?
I would have hoped the Holy Father would have consecrated Russia when it was first requested, maybe then we would not be in this state of crisis within the Church, and I don't know why he didn't.
Do I think Russia will ever be consecrated? For whatever my opinion is worth to you, I do.
I only found it strange that you complain about his book, we all read different books and blogs, and some of them are worth thinking about, and some are not. My own opinion of Christopher Ferrara isn't worth the mention here, that is just my opinion. I prefer the Catholic Newspaper known as the "The Four Marks". http://www.thefourmarks.com/
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OHCA said,
You are a knucklehead and you're putting words in my mouth.
What you posited in your titling this thread, at it's essence, is that anyone who believes in "Fatima" should follow Lucy's NO example. Are you too dumb to realize that the implication of your question is that if Fatima is true, then the NO must be right because of Lucy's example? What does one have to do with the other? You're query assumes that if Fatima is true, then the NO must be good because of Lucy's example. The only way that that would necessarily be true would be if Lucy was God-like, omniscient, infallible, and sinless, which she was not.
". . . are all . . . imperfect but not essentially at fault.
"Because that is where your argument leads."
Try some rather than all, Logic-King.
I did not say that Lucy would have had to have been God-like, omniscient, infallible, sinless, etc., to have avoided marching into conciliardom. I am saying that she would have, in addition to being a mere instrument in Fatima (if it's even real), would have had to have been those things for the faithful to have rightfully blindly marched into conciliardom solely based on her example. You're saying that if Fatima is true, then the NO is necessarily good based on Lucy's example. That's the biggest bunch of horse#### logic that I can imagine at the moment.
:really-mad2:
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I maintained we are really talking about two different Lucy's. The real one in 1957
with Father Fuentes and 1967 with Pope Paul VI.
This first decide if the Sister Lucy that came on the scene in 1967 was really an
impostor. We can go on, and from there.
If Sister Lucy died in 1949, who did Father Fuentes really speaking to!
Sounded like the real Sister Lucy to me.
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Sister Lucy was replaced by an imposter. No question about it. This is by no means "crazy" talk just because it sounds sensational. Communists were very practiced in the art of replacing people with doubles.
Sister Lucy probably died in the early- to mid- 1960s. She was told that she would live to see the fulfillment of the Third Secret, which clearly had to do with Vatican II and most likely the illegitimate election of John XXIII.
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Why go to the trouble of setting up an imposter Sister Lucy?
If Sister Lucy died in the late 1950s or early 1960s, why wouldn't the Vatican, or the Communists, or whoever, just leave it at that?
Why did they need a fake Sister Lucy when a dead Sister Lucy would have served them just as well. What did they have to gain by replacing her with an imposter?
Besides, setting up an imposter is not as easy as people think. Everyone who ever knew both the real Sister Lucy and the fake Sister Lucy must have been part of the deception. Either that, or they were blackmailed into cooperating, or silenced permanently.
That's a lot of trouble to go to for no real benefit. No doubt they could have achieved this, by silencing (killing), threatening and blackmailing all those who knew both Sister Lucys. But why would they bother?
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One reason I could think of would be just your point in starting this thread.
What is the FULL Title of your thread here?
Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo for decades, shouldn't we follow her example.
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An imposter Lucia is more evidence that the Vatican has been rotten to the core for a long time. This was not some mistake that got overlooked. It's a policy of deception that goes on to this very day. It's more proof that the message from Our Lady of La Salette has been coming to fruition. The full crystallization will be when Rome becomes the seat of the anti-Christ - a Jєω.
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MyrnaM said,
One reason I could think of would be just your point in starting this thread.
What is the FULL Title of your thread here?
Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo for decades, shouldn't we follow her example.
But they had almost the entire hierarchy supporting Vatican II. That was more than enough to persuade Catholics to accept the Novus Ordo. Why would they go to all the trouble of setting up a fake Sister Lucy as well, when they had the backing of so many heavyweights?
Also, there was no Traditionalist movement around in the late 50s and early 60s, the time when the real Sister Lucy is supposed to have died and been replaced by an imposter.
Ascent said,
An imposter Lucia is more evidence that the Vatican has been rotten to the core for a long time. This was not some mistake that got overlooked. It's a policy of deception that goes on to this very day. It's more proof that the message from Our Lady of La Salette has been coming to fruition. The full crystallization will be when Rome becomes the seat of the anti-Christ - a Jєω.
But according to St Cyril of Jerusalem, the seat of the Antichrist will be the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, (Catechetical Lecture 15, para 15):
.... Who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped .... so that he seats himself in the temple of God .... What temple then? He means, the Temple of the Jєωs which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are! Why say we this? That we may not be supposed to favour ourselves. For if he comes to the Jєωs as Christ, and desires to be worshipped by the Jєωs, he will make great account of the Temple, that he may more completely beguile them; making it supposed that he is the man of the race of David, who shall build up the Temple which was erected by Solomon.....
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310115.htm
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Don't forget awkard... we are in battle with the devil himself, he knew that the fight was not over just because of Vatican II.
The devil knew, just because it seemed as if everyone would follow him into Vatican II in the early 60's, he knew that would not last.
Tradition is being blessed daily, just today I heard CMRI picked up another novus ordo church with 11 acres for an affordable price. We are so blessed.
So if he can instill some doubt into the mind of weak souls, like you are trying to do, he might drag more into Hell, misery loves company.
Sister Lucy pray for us!
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MyraM said,
So if he [the devil] can instill some doubt into the mind of weak souls, like you are trying to do, he might drag more into Hell, misery loves company.
Are you seriously comparing my questions about Fatima with what the devil is doing?
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MyraM said,
So if he [the devil] can instill some doubt into the mind of weak souls, like you are trying to do, he might drag more into Hell, misery loves company.
Are you seriously comparing my questions about Fatima with what the devil is doing?
Boy, you must have guilty conscience, first Judas now the devil.
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MyrnaM said this,
So if he can instill some doubt into the mind of weak souls, like you are trying to do, he might drag more into Hell, misery loves company.
And then this,
Boy, you must have guilty conscience, first Judas now the devil.
Playing the innocent, are we!
And then turning it back on me!
You need to take a look at yourself.
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Why go to the trouble of setting up an imposter Sister Lucy?
If Sister Lucy died in the late 1950s or early 1960s, why wouldn't the Vatican, or the Communists, or whoever, just leave it at that?
You tell us. You claimed to have read the articles on TIA on page 1 of this thread.
Here it is:
The retirement of Sister Lucy I and introduction of Sister Lucy II before 1960, the year the secret was to have been revealed, would prevent the true witness from telling the world the full content of the Third Secret. This could only have been to the benefit of the progressivist wing that is dominating the Church in our days.
It took me about 30 seconds to find it.
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Why does everyone say the secret was to be revealed in 1960?
In the 1950's we were waiting for it because we'd always been told the secret was to be revealed NO LATER THAN 1960.
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Ascent said,
An imposter Lucia is more evidence that the Vatican has been rotten to the core for a long time. This was not some mistake that got overlooked. It's a policy of deception that goes on to this very day. It's more proof that the message from Our Lady of La Salette has been coming to fruition. The full crystallization will be when Rome becomes the seat of the anti-Christ - a Jєω.
But according to St Cyril of Jerusalem, the seat of the Antichrist will be the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, (Catechetical Lecture 15, para 15):
.... Who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped .... so that he seats himself in the temple of God .... What temple then? He means, the Temple of the Jєωs which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are! Why say we this? That we may not be supposed to favour ourselves. For if he comes to the Jєωs as Christ, and desires to be worshipped by the Jєωs, he will make great account of the Temple, that he may more completely beguile them; making it supposed that he is the man of the race of David, who shall build up the Temple which was erected by Solomon.....
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310115.htm
That is a false temple. The real Temple spoken about in the Scriptures, according to Catholic and Orthodox prophesy, is the Holy Tabernacle which houses the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The anti-Christ may also put himself in a false temple in Jerusalem, but the real defilement of what is Holy will occur in the real Temple of God - the New Arc of the New Covenant - which is, indeed, the Holy Tabernacle. The Church has always eschewed the coming "rebuilt temple" in Jerusalem. It will not have much meaning except to the deceived zionist "christians" and Christ-hating Jєωs.
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ascent said,
That is a false temple. The real Temple spoken about in the Scriptures, according to Catholic and Orthodox prophesy, is the Holy Tabernacle which houses the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The anti-Christ may also put himself in a false temple in Jerusalem, but the real defilement of what is Holy will occur in the real Temple of God - the New Arc of the New Covenant - which is, indeed, the Holy Tabernacle. The Church has always eschewed the coming "rebuilt temple" in Jerusalem. It will not have much meaning except to the deceived zionist "christians" and Christ-hating Jєωs.
In what way has the Church "always eschewed the coming "rebuilt temple" in Jerusalem"? The Church Fathers seem quite clear about this - the Antichrist will sit in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and reign for three and a half years. Then Christ will come.
St Irenaeus, 'Against Heresies', Book V, Ch 30:
..... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire....
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm
St Hippolytus, 'Discourse on the End of the World', para 25:
.....he [the Antichrist] will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jєωs. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man...... for three years and a half— Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, you who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm
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Why does everyone say the secret was to be revealed in 1960?
In the 1950's we were waiting for it because we'd always been told the secret was to be revealed NO LATER THAN 1960.
And this is the correct wording. No later than 1960. Because in 1960 we had anti-pope
JXXIII. The coarse of apostasy in the church was irreversible.
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ascent said,
That is a false temple. The real Temple spoken about in the Scriptures, according to Catholic and Orthodox prophesy, is the Holy Tabernacle which houses the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The anti-Christ may also put himself in a false temple in Jerusalem, but the real defilement of what is Holy will occur in the real Temple of God - the New Arc of the New Covenant - which is, indeed, the Holy Tabernacle. The Church has always eschewed the coming "rebuilt temple" in Jerusalem. It will not have much meaning except to the deceived zionist "christians" and Christ-hating Jєωs.
In what way has the Church "always eschewed the coming "rebuilt temple" in Jerusalem"?
Meaning as a "temple", Catholics should pay no mind to it because it will be a false temple used to mislead others. I'm not denying it will be used by the anti-Christ, in fact, there has been much talk by the perfidious Jєωs to get started on rebuilding it very soon. However, the Abomination of Desolation will occur in the real Temple - the Holy Tabernacle. The Church has always taught that the New Arc of the New Covenant is the Temple, hence the Holy Tabernacle.
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Why does everyone say the secret was to be revealed in 1960?
In the 1950's we were waiting for it because we'd always been told the secret was to be revealed NO LATER THAN 1960.
It's written on the envelope. It was filmed in Cardinal Bertone's hand and a still image made. You can read the writing for yourself.
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Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the date that Sister Lucy made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite?
I found the following on the EWTN website.
In 1946, seeking a more contemplative life, Lucia entered the Carmelite convent of St. Teresa in Coimbra, where she made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite on May 31, 1949. She took the name Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart.
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/children/lucia.htm
Years ago you could go to the convent website and though written in Portugese you could see the death records for all the nuns. At the time it was all over the net that #265 was Sister Lucy. It gave here birth, town born, date of entry into the convent and her death. Each one was exactly as could be verified in any book on Fatima. Withing a year this site was taken down. I do remember printing the sheet that contained her record ( I just have to find it now.) I believe Tradition in Action mentions this site also.
EWTN is not reliable on tradition. HOWEVER for arguments sake lets say that's true.
Now wouldn't that be the perfect time to introduce a fake Sister Lucy. Think about it. No one at the new convent would know her, what she looks like or have any personal knowledge of her. They'd take her at face value. They couldn't have done that at her old convent.
So you have an actual picture of it! I saw it once, too, and it was gone. So glad someone captured it. :jumping2: Oboyoboyoboy! I wanna see! :jumping2:
Parentsfortruth....here it is just for you ! I couldn't get it to copy so here it is from Tradition In Action. Look at Reference #265. Hard copy for future reference.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_741_LucyDeath.png
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Lucia Santos died on May 31, 1949.
And Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart was born on May 31, 1949.
They are the same person. But that was the practice pre Vatican II, to announce the death of the person to the world and their birth as a professed religious.
Was that the pre-VII practice? I'm just guessing. Also, I can't read the docuмent, it's too small.
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Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the date that Sister Lucy made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite?
I found the following on the EWTN website.
In 1946, seeking a more contemplative life, Lucia entered the Carmelite convent of St. Teresa in Coimbra, where she made her profession as a Discalced Carmelite on May 31, 1949. She took the name Sister Maria Lucia of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart.
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/children/lucia.htm
Years ago you could go to the convent website and though written in Portugese you could see the death records for all the nuns. At the time it was all over the net that #265 was Sister Lucy. It gave here birth, town born, date of entry into the convent and her death. Each one was exactly as could be verified in any book on Fatima. Withing a year this site was taken down. I do remember printing the sheet that contained her record ( I just have to find it now.) I believe Tradition in Action mentions this site also.
EWTN is not reliable on tradition. HOWEVER for arguments sake lets say that's true.
Now wouldn't that be the perfect time to introduce a fake Sister Lucy. Think about it. No one at the new convent would know her, what she looks like or have any personal knowledge of her. They'd take her at face value. They couldn't have done that at her old convent.
So you have an actual picture of it! I saw it once, too, and it was gone. So glad someone captured it. :jumping2: Oboyoboyoboy! I wanna see! :jumping2:
Parentsfortruth....here it is just for you ! I couldn't get it to copy so here it is from Tradition In Action. Look at Reference #265. Hard copy for future reference.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_741_LucyDeath.png
On this docuмent, #265 is entered in Feb. 2005, the month that the Lucia the world knew died. HOWEVER her death is stated as 1949.
TIA posted this docuмent and shortly thereafter access to the Carmelite records was removed.
Why didn't they just change the date to 2005 instead of removing all access?
Was it perhaps that someone refused to falsify the actual event?
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_741_LucyDeath.png
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Miseremini,
I managed to download the docuмent and enlarge it. Yes it does look very strange. 'Def.' must be short for 'definhar' used here rather than the more common 'morrer'. But I still can't understand why they would go to the trouble of setting up a fake Sister Lucy. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. And even if no-one at the new convent knew Sister Lucy, what about family and friends? And who was the fake Sister Lucy and what about her family and friends? Maybe someone was playing tricks.
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Miseremini,
I managed to download the docuмent and enlarge it. Yes it does look very strange. 'Def.' must be short for 'definhar' used here rather than the more common 'morrer'. But I still can't understand why they would go to the trouble of setting up a fake Sister Lucy. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. And even if no-one at the new convent knew Sister Lucy, what about family and friends? And who was the fake Sister Lucy and what about her family and friends? Maybe someone was playing tricks.
I too am troubled with questions. Everything in the past is not seen with 20/20 vision.
IF this switch? took place in 1949 AND IF an imposter entered the Carmelites, I do remember as late as the 1950's that the cloister was severly closed In Canada the nun's were not even allowed to attend their parent's funeral.
Reading a book on Fatima by a priest who lived at Fatima for several years while writing it, I come to the conclusion that the family would not have travelled very far outside their village. I don't know how far the convent is from them. They were very accepting of everything and being quite elderly by this time maybe couldn't travel much. As for siblings....that's another question.
I do remember reading that at some point (I'll try to locate it) by order of someone at the Vatican, Lucia's spiritual director and her confessor were abruptly forbidden contact with her and she was assigned new ones.
As for the fake...could have been an orphan.
As for why.....better to have an accepting Lucia around than someone with a large following from the old rite. And if it was known that she died in 1949 it would have brought tremendous attention to Fatima and it's message'; something the liberals certainly didn't want. Actually I think this is the best explanation.
Personally I don't think the Pope would have even known about a switch.
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http://youtu.be/B850cAWbWQY
Here is a talk by Fr. Gruner on the last unrestricted interview of Sister Lucy in 1957.
By Fr. Fuentes.
The talk is a hour long and well worth the time.
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null (http://null)
PerEvangelicaDicta said,
It's one or the other, isn't it?
Either she was fake (and the heart of Roman freemasons is black as can be, and capable of anything), or - going by your initial statement a.c. - something is desperately wrong. I fear we will never know until all is revealed.
In the meantime, the fruits of Fatima are good and holy vs., for example, Medjugorje, wouldn't you say?
You've summed up my dilemma. Either a fake Sister Lucy attended the Novus Ordo Mass for all those years in a Novus Ordo convent, and never once spoke out against Vatican II, or something is desperately wrong with Fatima.
Meanwhile, what exactly are the fruits of Fatima? To me, they seem to amount to little more than an endless fretting over the Consecration of Russia and the period of peace that is supposed to follow. Didn't the real Sister Lucy quote Our Lady as saying, in the Second Secret, that,
"... In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."
Matto said,
I think it is more ludicrous that Sister Lucy would attend the Novus Ordo than to think she was replaced by an imposter.
How about if the real Sister Lucy was deceived? What if Fatima is a deception, a decoy, intended to keep Catholics, particularly Traditionalists, distracted from what's really going on - which is the rise of the Antichrist? After all, there have been 'miracles of the sun' reported at Medjugurje. There was also a 'miracle of the sun' reported in 2013 in the Philipinnes on 'Divine Mercy' Sunday. What if Vatican II is actually the 'revolt' that St Paul refers to in 2Thessalonians 2:3?
Miseremini said,
The convent records show Lucia Santos from Fatima died May 31, 1949. If this is true, she never attended the Novus Ordo.
Also she did not have to be alive to witness the 3rd secret being revealed. Most saints never saw the result of their work.
Do you have a source for this? Can this be proved?
Fatima is not a deception, it has been approved before Vatican II by numerous Popes. Including a liturgical celebration, among many other things. Fatima gave an undeniable proof that this was truly Divine and as a result of it, many souls were saved into the one true religion. Just because there are some fanatics out there that pretend to know what Fatima teaches, doesn't mean the initial message was ever wrong.
Does it ever occur to you, that it is possible these fanatics are misinterpreting the revelation?
The third secret did in fact try to warn us about what was going to happen in the Church. So it is true prophecy, it predicted several things that came to be and gave a sign of it. At the real beginning of world war II in Europe there was a bright bright light at the night, bright enough where the people could actually read their newspaper during the darkest hours of the night without any additional artificial light. The miracle of the Sun, and there is absolutely nothing in the message that has one iota that contradicts Church teaching.
LOL The supposed miracles of the sun, are a bunch of fakes. The real miracle of the sun had THOUSANDS of witnesses, Jєωs, atheists, muslims and agnostics. All of them reported the same thing, and all of the prophecies that were contained in the message that we know did become true to the letter.
Anyone that does any cursory research, and has any inkling for truth can be able to tell the difference between an apostate fake miracle (also known as prodigy illusions of the devil) and the authentic power of God. The difference is quite simple, St. Patrick vs the pagan witch doctors, Moses vs the magicians of Pharaoh, St. Peter vs Simon Magus, need I go on!? All of those previous private demonic apparitions, have had so many false prophecies concerning the future.
Here is a brief list (http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/index.htm):
I agree with his general comments, I could of course comment a bit further, but it would be ridiculously too long.
01. Ida Peerdeman -- the lady of all nations (www.ladyofallnations.org) - [Evaluation]
02. Christina Gallagher (www.christinagallagher.org) - [Evaluation]
More False Claims | Christina Gallagher claims that heaven will cease to exist
On the alleged Gift of Eternal Life offered by Christina Gallagher
Three statements from Archbishop Neary (Tuam Diocese): "In summary the ‘House of Prayer’ has no Church approval and the work does not enjoy the confidence of the diocesan authorities."
Irish Newspaper articles: one | two | three
Latest news article: House of Prayer in Achill makes settlements to former followers
03. Maureen Sweeney Kyle and the missionary servants of holy love (www.holylove.org)
[Evaluation | Evaulation, part 2 | Letter of the Bishop | Decree of the Bishop against "Holy Love Ministries"
04. John Leary (www.johnleary.com) - [Evaluation] - more: Online Article on Bishop's Decision [archive.org] | Catholic Courier print article (PDF) | Letter from Leary's Bishop | Antipapal Messages
05. Louise Starr Tomkiel (www.giftstor.org/tomkiel05fst.html) - [Evaluation]
06. Little Pebble -- our lady of the ark (www.littlepebble.org) - [Evaluation]
07. Jennifer -- Divine Communications, Inc. (www.wordsfromjesus.com) - [Evaluation]
08. Veronica Lueken, Bayside New York (tldm.org) - [Evaluation]
09. the Silent Voice (www.silentvoice.net) of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan - [Evaluation]
10. Maria Valtorta (Poem of the Man-God) - [Evaluation | Article at EWTN]
11. Patricia Mundorf (members.tripod.com/~ImmaculateHeart/visionary.html) - [Evaluation]
12. Marisa Rossi and the laicized former priest Claudio Gatti, who claims to be a bishop. (www.madredelleucaristia.it) - [Evaluation]
13. Vassula Ryden -- true life in God (www.tlig.org) - [Evaluation] [InfoVassula.ch]
Notification on Vassula Ryden - by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (PDF format)
Clarification on the Notification - by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (PDF format)
25th January 2007 Statement by the Cardinal Levada: "The Notification of 1995 remains valid concerning the doctrinal judgement on the writings examined.... it is reminded that the participation of Catholics in prayer groups organized by Mrs Vassula Ryden is not advisable."
The Patriarch of the Orthodox Church has condemned Vassula Ryden's claimed private revelations.
14. The M+G+R Foundation, Miguel de Portugal (www.mgr.org) -- false teachings about the future - [Evaluation]
15. Chris Courtis (www.movingheartfoundation.com) - [Evaluation]
16. Lena Shipley - (call2holiness.org) - [Evaluation]
17. Sadie Jaramillo (www.sorrowfulrose.com) - [Evaluation]
18. Josyp Terelya of the Ukraine - [Evaluation]
19. Carol Ameche of Scottsdale Arizona (www.giftstor.org/AmecheIntro.html) - [Evaluation]
20. Dory Tan of Greensides Farm in Marmora Canada (www.ourladyofmarmora.com) - [Evaluation]
21. Annie Kirkwood -- Mary's Message to the World (http://www.baproducts.com/q&a.htm) - [Evaluation]
22. Eileen George of Millbury, Massachusetts -- Meet-the-Father Ministries - [Evaluation]
23. Mary Ann Van Hoof -- Necedah, Wisconsin - (offsite: the newsletter of discernment)
24. Brother David Lopez, O.S.F. (http://watch.pair.com/marian.html) - false teachings about the three days of darkness - [Evaluation]
25. The Girl of My Will, a.k.a. La Fille du Oui a Jesus = “The girl of Yes to Jesus” (http://www.lafilleajesus.org) - [Evaluation]
26. James McNichol - 'A Privileged Soul' (http://www.giftstor.org/McNichol02.htm)
27. The Two Hearts As One, i.e. Joseph DellaPuca and Denise Curtin (www.twohearts1.org) - [Evaluation]
28. Diane Lyons-Frasco -- claims of dreams and locutions (http://www.giftstor.org/visionry.htm)
29. Patty Powell and Eileen Giles (twin sisters) of Perth, Australia (http://weepingmadonna.org) - [Evaluation]
30. jesusmaryjoseph.org - 'the recipient' of these messages is anonymous - the expression: 'The Mother of Perpetual Light' is used on the site.
31. Thomas S. Gibson (prophetic-word.org)
32. Fr. Andrew Wingate a.k.a. The Trumpeter (www.trumpetersmission.com) - [Evaluation]
33. Barnabas Nwoye - Precious Blood Devotion - Gift of the Seal - [Evaluation]
A false private revelation promoted under the guise of devotion to the Precious Blood of Jesus.
34. Two anonymous women - Jesus King of All Nations (http://www.jkmi.com) - [Evaluation]
35. Allan Arthur Schulte, an Episcopal lay minister - (http://www.marysmessage.com/Preface.htm)
36. Ray Doiron of Belleville, IL - makes the false claim that the antichrist is in the world today
37. Rosa Lopez of Hollywood, FL (www.lovingmother.org) - makes the false claim that the pope after John Paul II would be evil; makes the false claim that the antichrist is in the world today
38. Edwin Gonzalez Concepcion; Gladys Miranda - he claims to be Pope John Paul II reincarnate, she claims to be the Virgin Mary, they claim Pope Benedict XVI is the antichrist
39. Conchiglia Della Santissima Trinita (http://www.dozule.org/) - falsely claims that Mary is divine; many false claims about Adam and Eve
40. Timothy J. Comeau and Joseph B. Reyes (http://hometown.aol.com/faith7love/) - a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ couple who claim to be the actual two prophets from the Book of Revelation, chapter 11. They also openly reject Church teaching, calling it the teaching of men, not God.
41. Valentina of Sydney, Australia (http://www.valentina-sydneyseer.com) - [Evaluation]
42.
43. Sally Steadman - Our Lady of Toledo, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary Shrine (www.protect-life.org) - claims that human cloning produces human beings without any soul.
44. Teresita Catillo, a novice in the Carmelite order in Lipa City, Philippines - claims that Mary called herself the Mediatrix of all grace
45. Rita Ring - the Shepherds of Christ Ministries - (www.sofc.org) - [Evaluation]
46. Mother Eugenia - the Message of God the Father of all mankind (www.theworkofgod.org) - claims that calling God by the name of Father, even only once, guarantees eternal salvation. - [Evaluation]
47. Julia Kim of Naju, South Korea (www.nd.edu/~mary/classic/Naju.html)
[Evaluation (in parts): False eucharistic miracles | A Bloody Statue | Another False Sign Involving Blood | Official Declarations of the Archbishop | Final Decree of the Archbishop | Decision of the Vatican]
48. Josefina-Maria of Melbourne, Australia - claims that Mary called herself the Mediatrix of all graces; Her messages ask people to 'co-redeem the world with me and my Son.' But Christ alone is the redeemer. No one else can redeem or co-redeem the world. Her messages also claimed in 1993 that the reign of the Two Hearts would be established on earth; but we are now in the new century and this has not occurred.
49. Alix Fils-Aime (of the Arise Jerusalem Ministry) in Honesdale, PA, promoted under the title of 'Our Lady of All Graces' (http://www.ourladyofallgraces.org/index.php)
The messages promote the heresy of Phariseeism, (e.g. message of 01-27-09), claiming that all rules issued by the Pope are dictated by the Holy Spirit, and portraying salvation as if it were dependent solely on obedience. The messages confuse the infallible teachings of the Magisterium with the fallible decisions of the temporal authority of the Church. The messages do not acknowledge the existence of the non-infallible non-irreformable teachings of the authentic ordinary Magisterium. The messages make the false claim that the end of the world is near ("The final moment is close at hand!"). The messages make the false claim that the Antichrist is in the world today (message of 01-23-09). The messages claim that priests should never be married, in contradiction to the constant practice of the Church to permit some married men to become priests ("No, it is not for you, My Priest, to be a husband and father of children…. Remember that it is not right, Jerusalem, to defile the priesthood by committing a sɛҳuąƖ act! This would be an abomination!" message of 01-13-09).
50. the so-called Epistle of Love to the Scientific World (epistleoflove.org)
51. Janie Garza of Austin, Texas (http://www.sign.org) - promotes the same falsehoods as Ida Peerdeman; claims that 'the dogma' must be proclaimed; claims that the Lady of All Nations apparitions were true private revelation.
52. Patsy Soto (http://balllabs.com/histeachingsministry/) - [Evaluation]
53. Nancy Fowler of Conyers, Georgia (http://www.ourlovingmother.com) - [Evaluation]
54. Catalina Rivas (a.k.a. Katya or Catia) (http://www.greatcrusade.org) - [Evaluation]
55. Ned Dougherty (www.missionofangels.org) - claims that June 6, 2006 is a day related to evil (6-6-06); claims "dark energy" is causing various kinds of problems in the world.
56. Frances M. Klug (www.themiracleofstjoseph.org) - claims that Saint Joseph is the Holy Spirit, and that he has come again into the world through Frances Klug.
Condemned by the Bishops of Los Angeles, San Bernadino, and Orange County in this docuмent.
57. Timothy Snodgrass (www.king1.tictacwebsites.com/page/page/3674670.htm) - claims a prophetic significance to the date of 6/6/06.
58. Michael DiBitetto and the Trust Prayer Group (trustprayergrp.org) - [Evaluation]
59. Patricia Talbot (a.k.a. Pachi) of Ecuador - claims that the Antichrist is in the world today.
60. Mary Kathryn Johnson (Fr. Stephen Valenta is her spiritual director) - she promotes an altered version of the miraculous medal; claims the original miraculous medal of St. Catherine was incomplete; claims Mary called herself Mediatrix of All Graces; promotes the so-called fifth and final dogma
61. Alois Irlmaier (interviewed by Conrad Adlmaier) (users.skynet.be/courlisius/alois.html) - makes false claims about the three days of darkness about about the wars that precede it.
62. Dr. Mary Jane Even (users.skynet.be/courlisius/preface_mary.html) - claims that the Antichrist is in the world today; claims the three days of darkness occurs the year after the Miracle [which is certainly not true]; vague predictions of bad weather.
63. The Two Patricks (www.thetwopatricks.org) - Patrick O'Kane and Patrick Rushe - claim that the Antichrist is in the world today; claims Christ will return for this generation; claims that the Gospels were written within days of Christ's death; worldly language and subjects; claimed (April 1, 2005) that Pope John Paul II would be replaced by "one who is not of Me;" claimed Pope John Paul II was overthrown; Patrick claimed (May 13, 2005) "that the pope that would come after John Paul II would be the deceiver, the abomination, the antichrist;" claims that 'Jesus' said (May 11, 2005): "The deceiver sits upon the Throne of My Peter" referring to Pope Benedict XVI.
64. Anna Marie of GreenScapular.org (greenscapular.org/Heavenlymessages.htm) - the green scapular devotion was approved in the 1800's, but this group, which has misappropriated that name, is just like the other false private revelations. Some of the errors: an incorrect description of the Warning, sensationalist messages about current events, vague predictions of unspecified disasters, etc.
65. Fr. Melvin Doucette - Our Lady of Prince Edward Island (www.ourladyofpei.ca) - [Evaluation]
Fr. Melvin is associated with the false visionary Joyce Ann Wagner (Burbank, California).
66. Barbara Rose Centilli (book title: Seeing with the Eyes of the Soul)
67. Wim Holtschlag (www.raphaelthearchangel.com)
68. Dominic Sanchez Falar (www.maryisgod.org) - formerly made the heretical claim that Mary is God and that she is the 'soul' of the Holy Spirit; claims that the 'Last Pope' and the 'True Antichrist' will fight to the death (so that both die); claims that Jesus went to Hell and could not leave until He had suffered all the suffering due as punishment for the damned in Hell. Sept. 16, 2008: Dominic has closed his website maryisgod.org and he has agreed not to call Mary as God anymore; he has ceased to promote his claimed private revelations (but still thinks that they are true). -- as per e-mails received from Dominic Sanchez Falar.
69. the Cap-Verdi prayer group - Cannes, France - St. Paul Catholic Church
Members of the group who receive visions respond with convulsions, vomitting; one girl responded by smashing windows until her hand bled from broken glass; the messages claim that Jesus is returning soon.
70. Allan Rudio of the Philippines (http://allan_rudio.tripod.com/index.html)
False claims about the Chastisement, e.g. "1. Be sure that all your windows are closed. Cover it with a black Curtain so that the Devil cannot enter your houses. 2. Also have Blessed Grapes - This is your only food during the Chastisement." Claims that Allan can see a cross on each followers forehead, which brightens and dims according to their moods. He claimed, according to his private revelations, that the Warning of Garabandal would occur in 1995 (it did not).
71. Mark Mallett (http://www.markmallett.com/blog/) [Errors on the Three Days of Darkness]
72. M. Tague - uses the tagline: 'a little ignorant one' (promoted by Joyce Lang)
73. Eileen Renders (promoted by Joyce Lang's seers2 group)
74. Darrell Bennett (promoted by Joyce Lang and 'Prophetic Voices' - http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/before2005.html)
75. the so-called Prayer Warrior (single word or single phrase messages titled 'Word to Prayer Warrior', promoted by seers2 group)
76. Maggie (promoted by Joyce Lang's seers2 group) - false claims about the three days of darkness
77. Sharon Fitzpatrick of Pana, Illinois (petalsfromheaven.com)
78. JNSR (http://www.jnsr.be/uk.htm) - messages to an anonymous woman, who goes by the epitat: JNSR, claiming 'the complete Dogma' that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit, in a Divine conception.
79. Delmis a.k.a. Carmelita, of Montreal, Canada (www.carmelita-delmis.org)
80. Laura Zink, messages from on high, (http://www.mfoh.com/)
81. Sister Anna Ali of the Pious Union of Daughters of Jesus, the Good Shepherd - a 'Union' founded by Archbishop Milingo (who himself was excommunicated twice by the Holy See).
82. Fr. Dennis Ward O.S.B. (osbfathers.com | osbenedict.com | both sites are now shut down) - According to Andrew Nugent O.S.B., Prior of the Benedictine's Glenstal Abbey in Ireland, Father Dennis Ward has never been a member of the Roman Catholic Benedictine order, and is not a licitly ordained Catholic priest. Dennis Ward was either not ordained at all, or was ordained by a schismatic group. Dennis Ward claims to be a Benedictine and also claims to have received private revelations from God.
See also: http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/12/fr-dennis-ward-update.html
Caution: Fr. Dennis Ward is now reportedly going by the alias 'Fr. John Francisco OSB, St. Benedict's Priory, Dublin, Ireland.'
83. Emma de Guzman (motherofjoy.com), also (lapietaintl.org) - foundress of La Pieta Prayer Group International - associated with Sol Gaviola: she found an icon in a garage sale in 1991; this was the start of the group and the claimed private revelations. - [Evaluation]
84. Anne Marie White (http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/you_will_be_persecuted.html) - messages typical of false private revelation.
85. Ernest Rutaganda (http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/RosarygloryGodFather.html) - [Evaluation]
86. Geoff and Margaret Carlin (http://www.lovesembrace.com/messages.html) - claim messages from Jesus about saving the whales (http://www.lovesembrace.com/greatwhales.html) - also numerous false claims about angels (http://www.lovesembrace.com/angeladorer.html)
87. Anonymous Seer (http://giftstor.org/AnonymousSeer.htm) - false messages to someone who remain anonymous.
88. Denis O'Leary - Irish 'mystic' (http://www.circleofprayer.com/denis-oleary.html) - typical false private revelation
89. O Delfim (the dauphin) - promoted by seers2 group
90. Vicky Spalding, S.F.O. (myfathersmercy.com)
91. Muriella D'Silva - promoted by seers2 group
92. anonymous locutionist of the so-called 1990 prophecy (spiritdaily.org/New-world-order/revelation1.htm) and the so-called 2004 prophecy (spiritdaily.org/New-world-order/2004prophecy.htm)
93.
94. meriam (promoted by seers2 group)
95. the so-called God's Warrior (promoted by seers2 group)
96. Our Lady of Light - New Mexico (http://www.ourladyoflightpublications.com/light-articles/detail.cfm?id=29)
97.Our Lady of Light - Falmouth, Kentucky (http://www.homeofourladyoflight.org)
98. Aokpe, Nigeria - Christiana Inebu Agbo and others (ref.: book by Fr. John Beirne "Am I Going To Heaven Or Not?")
99. His littlest of servants (promoted by seers2 group) - There are serious doctrinal errors in this person's 'visions'. He claims a vision seeing a person who lacked the graces necessary to accept Jesus' Mercy. To the contrary, more than sufficient grace from God for repentance is always available to every sinner without exception, from the Cross of Christ. So it cannot be true, as he claims, that this person 'did not have the graces necessary'. Also, grace is before, during, and after any good act. So it is doctrinally false to claim that the mercy of Jesus is unable to be accepted due to a lack of grace: the grace before, during and after such acceptance is of the mercy of Jesus. He claims that a person near death, in his vision, was surrounded by demons ready to drag him into Hell as soo as he died. But it is contrary to Catholic teaching to claim that demons drag someone into Hell when they die, no matter how evil that person may be. The Church teaches that every person, when they die, stand before God in the particular judgment. Then the deeds of that person's life, good and bad, are reviewed, and God judges that person. Then, if they died in a state of actual mortal sin, that person is sent to Hell by God (see on the Beatific Vision of God, Pope Benedict 12). There is yet another message with the doctrinal error that claims the Orthodox Churches, and the Protestant denomination have no graces and no good in them because they are separated from the Roman Catholic Church. This contradicts the teaching of Vatican II. And there are other doctrinal errors in this messages and visions.
100. Mac Smith - (http://www.holymotherchurch.org/1656267.html) Our Lady of the Most Precious Blood messages claim that people will receive special blessings if they pray the Rosary while surrounded by a prayer blanket; claims that even Jesus does not know when events will happen in the future; claims that Mac Smith can bi-locate; claims that the Virgin Mary explicitly spoke about the group's website and that gave specific instructions about the website; claims the Virgin Mary said, "I blow a kiss to each one of you;" claims that in one of her appearances, Mary was only about 4 feet tall; claims Mary called herself: "the Mother of Queen of Heaven;" claims that if you say a certain Life Offering prayer, all your family members will certainly avoid Hell.
[Evaluation]
101. Alan Ames - a.k.a. Carver Alan Ames (www.alanames.org) - [Evaluation]
Heretical teaching: messages claim that after dying, being judged by God, and being condemned to Hell, a soul can still be saved and go to Heaven, if someone prays for that soul.
Heretical teaching: messages claim that all killing is a mortal sin without exception, even just war, death penalty, self-defense.
102. Theresa Lopez (http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TheresaLopez.html)
103. Giorgio Bongiovanni (http://www.giorgiobongiovanni.it/engl/biografia/index.html) - his messages are clearly false, and yet he has the stigmata; this is a good example of the fact that signs and wonders (in this case, the stigmata) can be associated with false private revelation.
104. Kim Clement (kimclement.com)
105. Bread of Heaven - Manna for this generation (www.jesuswords.org)
106. Jack Marie Smith (www.jackmariesmith.org) - associated with Conyers, Georgia; false visions about the chastisement; falsely claims that he has been recognized by the catholic church as a 'pilgrim and prophet.'
107. Renato Baron - The apparitions of Our Lady in Schio (Vicenza, Italy) (www.reginadellamore.org/inglese/indexen.htm)
108. Luz Diaz (http://www.giftstor.org/Luz.htm)
109. little servant of Mary (http://www.medjugorje-online.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3723) - [Evaluation]
110. Mary S. Reilly - (ourladyofthefingerlakes.com) - Evaluation
111. Susan cuмmings a.k.a. 'Rev. Susan Williams (cuмmings)' - [In The Image Of His Glory Ministries] claims that "The Remnant Man-Child Company are now birthed forth, and are being positioned by God into their places!!!"
112. Cyndi Cain - the Hidden Flower of the Immaculate Heart - claims the Antichrist is in the world today: "all the while the antichrist works tirelessly to rule the world"
113. the messages of 'the Virgin of the last times' (http://www.verginedegliultimitempi.com/)
114. Mother Mary's Garden (http://www.mothermarysgarden.com/) - claims Mary is Divine and that women must be allowed to be priests.
115. Samarah Joy Riely (www.channelmary.com) - claims to 'channel' the wisdom of 'Divine Mother Mary'; she claims to be an 'ordained Madonna Minister'
116. Naneki Elliott (www.nanekielliott.com) - claims to channel the Virgin Mary; calls God 'Father/Mother', claims to have a spirit guide named 'Ozo'
117. Shanti Christo Foundation (www.shantichristo.com) - claims messages channeled from Jesus; your basic New Age nonsense
118. Michael Altschuler (www.messagesfromourblessedmother.com)
119. Mother of Love messages to Marco at Paratico (Brescia) - Italy (http://www.mammadellamore.it/inglese.htm) - claims Jesus is returning physically for this generation; claims the tribulation begins before the Warning.
120. Mr. Suleiman C. Edmondson
121. divinechildofthelight.org (Shepherdsville, Kentucky)
122. Joyce Ann Wagner (Burbank, California) - claimed to dispense the Seal of the Living God to visitors to her House of Prayer; she claimed that God told her she will never die; she claimed that she will lead an underground Church when the Antichrist takes over. She died on the evening of March 25th, 2008. (See this discussion, and this one)
123. Gary (not his real name), an Anglican, who claims to have received an experience of the Warning in advance, including infused knowledge (http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/a/lasereye/warning5.html)
124. Brother R. G. Stair (overcomerministry.org) - claims that the Catholic Church is not the true Church, and that Jesus will return for this generation.
125. Great Dreams website (http://www.greatdreams.com/sitemap.html) - numerous false prophecies based on dreams by a number of different persons.
126. Joseph Reinholtz, Queen of Heaven Cemetery, Hillside, Illinois (http://home.att.net/~the.cross/)
127. Julia Arancino of Thurio, Italy (http://www.roomofjesus.net)
128. Various claimed visionaries associated with the Little Pebble (http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/the_messages/mail_outs.html)
129. John Snide of Greenfield, Massachusetts (http://www.livingmiracles.net/Snide.html)
130. Ron O'Brien [aka Ronald Woodruff] of Keene New Hamphire (http://www.rickross.com/reference/eucharist/eucharist3.html)
131. Marie-Paule Giguere of the 'Army of Mary' - claimed she was a living reincarnation of the Virgin Mary (Sept. 2007: the group has been excommunicated by the Holy See).
132. Debra Geilesky [aka Debra Marie Burslem] of the Magnificat Meal Movement in Queensland, Australia
133.
134. Giancarlo Varini - Gargallo di Campi, Italy (http://www.mammadellapace.it/index.htm) - claims an imminent return of Jesus Christ.
135. Mama Rosa Quattrini of San Damiano (http://www.wandea.org.pl/virgin-mary.htm)
136. Paola Albertini of Monfenera Pederobba (Treviso) Italy (http://www.mariareginadegliangelicustodi.it)
137. Dina Basher of Iraq - claims the return of Jesus is imminent.
138. Barbara Reuss - 1946 apparitions at Marienfried, Germany - these messages portray Mary calling herself powerful and speaking about herself as if she had the role of Christ. - [Evaluation]
139. Carlos Lopez and Jorge Zavala, San Bruno, California (http://olpg.org/messages.htm)
140. messages to Agnes Sawarno and the Community of the Charity Services of the Blessed Mother (http://www.heartoftheblessedmother.org) - reject Second Vatican Council; false claims about the three days of darkness; exaltation of the seer
141. Francesca Zackey of Alphen Park in Benoni, South Africa
142. messages to Ms. Rosalind under the title of our Lady of Jecintho (www.jecintho.in) Tamilnadu, India
143. Mount Mellery Grotto (melleray.com/english/home/index.php) - [Evaluation]
144. Jadwiga Ligocka, a former nun of the Sisters of the Family of Bethany
145. anonymous housewife from Boston (http://home.comcast.net/~bkean9/)
146. Judiel Nieva of Agoo, Philippines (www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping15.htm)
147. Romy Pabustan - our Lady of Amorseco (http://www.amorseco.org/index.htm)
148. Jeffrey Lumbay - Pagadian City, Phillipines (www.mb.com.ph/issues/2006/02/26/PROV2006022657283.html)
149. Jakob Lorber and Bertha Dudde (http://prophecy9000.tripod.com/)
150. Littlest of His Servants, anonymous seer/locutionist who promotes messages through the seers2 Group
151. Mary's little child, anonymous seer/locutionist who promotes messages through the seers2 Group
152. Ruth Ann Wade (maryschildren.com) - "The Farm" located in Bloomington, Indiana
Very many messages to Ruth Wade claim that the Second Coming of Jesus is near, and they repeatedly strongly imply that this will occur for the current generation. This claim is common in the many false private revelations, and not found in any of the true ones.
153. Juan Antonio Gil of Maracaibo Venezuela (www.holymotherchurch.org/1855977.html) - claims that Mary repeatedly goes from Heaven to earth to Heaven again, in body and soul, each first Saturday; false claims about the Three Days of Darkness
154. Estella Ruiz of Phoenix, AZ (www.apparitions.org/Ruiz.msg95.html)
155. Lec, a Catholic in the Philippines (from the seers2 group)
156. Juanito (from the seers2 group)
157. Patricia de Menezes (divine-innocence.org) - Community of Divine Innocence in Surrey, England. Statements by the Bishop of the Diocese and the CDF [the same as a PDF]
158. Stanley Villavicencio - Cebu, Philippines - [Evaluation]
159. Léandre Lachance (leandrelachance.com)
160. Rose of the Holy Innocents (http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/some_coming_events.html) - messages claimed that the Pope after John Paul II would be called Peter II and would be the last Pope ever.
161. Harriet Hammons (http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/worse_apostasy.html) - claimed the apostasy was in nearly full swing in 2002; conspiracy theories involving the U.N. and the 'one world government' and 'one world religion.'
162. Rosa Mystica - apparitions and messages to Pieina at Montichiari, Italy, in 1947, and at Fontanelle, Italy, in 1966. - [Evaluation]
163. Bruno Cornacchiola - (http://trefontane.altervista.org/bruno.html) - false claims about the Virgin Mary; see http://catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1816
164. Denise Estrada (www.ahealingheart.net) - claims that Jesus will return to walk the earth soon; vague predictions of natural disasters.
165. Darell Bennett - (http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/terrible.html) claims that Jesus said he would act without mercy: "I will use my power, and there will be no mercy for sinners ... sinners who do not keep my commands are doomed ... I will have no mercy on them!"
166. Helen Buyco - (http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/obedient.html | http://www.giftstor.org/buyco01.htm) claims to be able to seal the foreheads of others; says she has been sealed by God the Father directly)
167. Fraternite of Notre Dame and Bishop Jean-Marie Kozik - This bishop was illicitly ordained by a sede vacantist schismatic bishop (Thuc). Kozik claims private revelations from the Virgin Mary. The Fraternite of Notre Dame is not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.
168. Raymond Aguilera (prophecy.org) - non-denominational; claims the world is ending soon and that Jesus is returning soon; numerous incoherent prophecies and vague visions; bizarre messages unlike the true Gospel message.
169. T. Chase (revelation13.net) - false prophecies based on bible code and astrology; makes the false claim that Vladimir Putin, President of Russia, is the Antichrist.
170. John of the Community of Saint Joseph of the 'Asylum City' in northern New Brunswick, Canada (www.asylcity.com/) - claim that their private revelations are part of 'the Third Testament of Holy Scriptures;' claim that the Rosary has been replaced by 'the Chaplet of the Father;' the man called 'John' claims to be the head of a new College of the Apostles; claim that Pope John Paul II was replaced by an imposter in 1996; numerous other patently false and heretical and schismatic claims.
171. Yahweh Shalom - Virgin Victorious (yahwehshalom-virginvictorious.com) messages to Lory Kemner of Climax Springs, Missouri.
She is often called 'Child' in the messages. Numerous theological errors, and also historical errors about the lives of Christ and Mary. Claims a three years period of natural disasters in the calendar years 2007, 2008, and 2009. Claims that Jesus dictated the story of his life to her: "Jesus' Life - (Author: Jesus)" Claims that dozens of Saints have given her messages.
[Evaluation]
172. Colette Coulombe - claims messages from Saint Anne, e.g.: "Pray a lot and give me your projects, I will explain them in details to my Grand-Son Jesus; I will seduce Him because I love you."
173. Wenko Pasco - Taguig City, Manila, Philippines (http://deathtomycreditcards.blogspot.com/) - her website is about her problems with credit card debt and mishandling her own money; she claims a private revelation in which she was chosen by God to raise a very large sum of money to build a cathedral; there is no involvement of the Bishop or diocese in her project; she claims the cathedral will be a replica of a cathedral in Italy. She claims its garden will provide food for a city during a famine, but it is only on one hectare of land. She claims those who donate get special protection from Michael the Archangel, and that the cathedral will be a place of refuge during the tribulation (an idea often found in false private revelation). She claims that the present time is the 'end of days'. She claims that her parish church has hauntings from demons, and that she was chosen by God to exorcise those demons.
174. Theresa Lazar - messages supposedly from Jesus saying that "the Tridentine Mass is the only Mass that gives Me reverence," and, "I do not want to be on a ‘slaughter table’! Priests should face the east. There should be a relic on the altar." The messages claim that the God the Father said: "The Novus Ordo Mass is an insult, a cult." The messages treat the Pope and the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church as if they have gone astray from the faith by letting people receive Communion standing and in the hand, by revising the Mass to the Novus Ordo, etc. These are false message designed to appeal to the biases of traditionalist Catholics.
175. a layman named Angelik Caruana claims to have received messages (www.borgin-nadur.org; borgin-nadur.blogspot.com) Borg in-Nadur, Malta - messages present a superficial understanding of the Catholic faith, lacking in the subtle yet profound wisdom of the true Virgin Mary; Angelik has a vision of Hell that is contrary to Catholic doctrine, as if the devils were in charge of torturing, and as if the people there could continue to sin, and as if Hell were a place of disorder, rather than an orderly and proportional punishment of God. In one alleged message, the Virgin Mary is portrayed as complaining about her own pains: “My heart is aching badly! My heart is aching badly! My heart is aching badly!”
176. Cassandra Musgrove - claims that the three days of darkness is caused by volcanoes; predicts a series of natural diasters.
177. George Kramme of Albuquerque, NM (www.apocalypsevision.org) - claims that Jesus will return for this generation; claims to have had a vision of a city; claims that Jesus spoke in a worldly manner: "I've got it! Don't worry about a thing! Everything's going to be alright!"
178. Dr. Gloria Constanza Polo (www.gloriapolo.net) - claimed private revelation based on her near death experience: She claims that God said He will punish those who don't listen to her. But the Church teaches that we do not have to listen to any claimed private revelation, it is not required belief. Her narrative about what happens after death contains numerous doctrinal errors: she claims she was sent to Hell without the particular judgment by God. She claims that while in Hell she was judged by her deceased parents, not by God directly. She claims she was sent to Hell, but then somehow escaped back to this life; this too is contrary to Catholic teaching. She claimed that most of the persons in Hell were young people, and she represents Hell as if it is just extreme torture for everyone, entirely out of proportion to the type and degree of their sins (as if God punishes in Hell without justice and without mercy).
179. messages at El Escorial (Spain) to Luz Amparo Cuevas (http://www.virgendolorosa.es/ingles.html) - makes the false claim that Mary is 'Co-redeemer of humankind'. Resembles other false private revelations.
180. Matthew Kelly of Sydney Australia - claimed to have received some locutions from God the Father in the 1990's, was told by the Bishop to stop speaking of this publicly and complied. He claimed a private revelation in which the Warning [of Garabandal] is called 'mini-judgment.' This idea is incorrect, since in Catholic teaching there are only two judgments, the particular and the general. The Warning show us the sins on our conscience, but it does not review the good and bad in one's entire life. Kelly's messages also claimed that man should never judge the action of themselves or the actions of others. This is a distortion of Catholic teaching. Though Christ taught us not to judge persons (Mt. 7:1), He also taught us to judge for ourselves what is just (Lk 12:57, Jn 7:24), which of course necessarily includes judging which actions are just and which are unjust. In my opinion, his claimed messages of private revelation are not from God. As for his books and talks, I would not trust them.
181. Roger Poisson, The Mission of the Shroud begun, of Winnipeg, Manitoba (http://www.missionoftheshroud.com/) - claims a private revelation for the purpose of teaching the Pope and the Bishops; claims that his messages will cause "the Spirit becomes alive inside of" the bishops; his messages are superficial, but claim to be profound insights; he claims that marriage makes the spouses 'born again' and 'a virgin again.' He makes a series of false claims about Adam and original sin; he states that there were millions of people on earth before original sin, and that when 'the sin' occurred, they all forgot that they used to be holy. He claims that the world 'was always existing'. In addition, numerous messages, supposedly said 'in the Spirit' are incoherent ramblings.
182. Lorraine Louvat of LIFESONG LJL Healing Ministry (http://www.lifesongljl.org/main.html) - she claims a few private revelations; she also claims to have "The gifts of Healing, Miracles and others" from her birth. But none of the Saints has ever claimed to have miraculous gifts from birth; the Saints attained their gifts by being in a state of grace (which begins at Baptism, not at birth) and by living a life of heroic virtue in imitation of Christ. She makes a number of other exaggerated and false claims. - [Evaluation]
183. Dr. Paul Dhinakaran - Jesus Calls Ministries (jesuscalls.org) - claims that Jesus will return for this generation; claims that the antichrist rose up in 2008 and 2009; numerous vague predictions for the present time.
184. Myriam and Marie (http://detarle.club.fr/catho/Myriam_et_Marie.html) - two women, not their real names, who claim to receive messages from Jesus; vague predictions of disasters and catastrophes, the false claim that Jesus will return very soon (for this generation), false description of the Warning, the false claim that the Warning will occur before Christmas 2009.
185. Olive Dawson and the messages to her brother, David Smyth (friendsofthemotherofdivinemercy.org)
Does Olive Dawson live solely on the Eucharist? | Olive Dawson - How It All Began
186. Agnès-Marie, France (http://vincent.detarle.perso.sfr.fr/catho/sauv-agnesmar.htm) - claims that the Church will become a false Church and only a few will remain faithful, outside the institutional Church; false claims and fear-mongering about the swine flu (H1N1); warns of a so-called nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr (as many other false prophecies also claim); portrays Jesus as if he were speaking in a worldly manner and instilling fear; claims that Jesus is returning for this generation; also promotes an idea similar to the Protestant rapture, claiming that the few who remain faithful will be lifted up during the time of the abomination of desolation. These false claims are similar to many other false private revelations.
187. Mary Constancio, the Ambassadors of the Flame of Mercy, (www.flameofmercy.com) in Shallowater, Texas.
188. Joe Coleman, 'Mary', and Keith Henderson of Dublin, Ireland. Joe Coleman is using Knock, Ireland, a site of true apparitions of Mary in 1879, to promote his own false claims to be "a spiritual healer under the energy of the Holy Spirit." Until recently, he described himself as a "clairvoyant." He now uses the term "spiritual healer". (See this article.)
[Evaluation]
189. Mary K. Baxter - a born again Christian who claims to have been given a Divine Revelation from Jesus about Hell. - [Evaluation]
190. Maria Livia de Obeid, Our Lady of the Hill, Salta, also known as the Virgin of the Three Little Hills, Los Tres Cerritos (http://www.inmaculadamadre-salta.org/es/3Mensajes/Leer/Mensajes1990-97-ingles.htm)
191. Sister Raquel Reodica, RVM - her claims are much like the claims of the other false prophecies, listed above.
192. Duke Puntalangit of the Philippines - false claims about the prophecies of Fatima, false claims about the war, false claims about the Three Days of Darkness, and the false idea that Jesus will return for this generation. Update: Duke has repented of his false prophecies --- No, now he has relapsed, and is making false prophecies again.
193. Gabriele Bitterlich - her claimed private revelations represent the Christian Faith as if it revolved entirely around the battle between good and bad angels; it is occultism, not Christianity.
194. John of God (Abadiania, Goias, Brazil) -- claimed medium and healer [Evaluation]
195. Choo Thomas and Sandra Sadiq (www.choothomas.com) -- both women promote the Protestant error of the rapture; Choo claimed that Jesus said the rapture was to occur in 2009. Sandra makes the false claim that receiving the mark of the beast (which she thinks is an RFID computer chip) prevents you from ever repenting of sin so as to be saved.
196. Bill Wiese -- yet another person claiming to have been given a private revelation of Hell. The usual doctrinal errors on Hell are asserted: the claim that the denizens of Hell continue to sin eternally; the claim that the devils are in charge of Hell (as if they were not sent their to be punished like everyone else); the claim that the punishments of Hell are not from the mercy and justice of God, but from the malice of the devils, for their amusement and pleasure, etc.
197. Ghanaword.com -- promotes false claims about the Antichrist and the mark of the beast; claims that receiving the mark prevents a person from ever repenting (this claim is contrary to Catholic teaching that we are always able to cooperate with grace and repent, no matter what we have done). Promotes the Protestant error of the Rapture and other Protestant ideas.
198. Kibeho, Rwanda -- false claims that Jesus will return for this generation (according to: Segastashya and Alphonsine).
199. Anonymous visionary, now calling herself "Maria Divine Mercy", at the web site: TheWarningSecondComing.com - promotes the false claim that Jesus is returning for this generation; promotes the false claim that the Antichrist is in the world today. The messages contain many vague predictions, teach multiple heresies, and attempt to convince the faithful to distrust the Church.
See my post on her possible identity here.
[Evaluation, part 1 updated 29 Jan 2012]
[Evaluation, part 2 14 August 2012]
Blog posts on Maria Divine Mercy and The Warning Second Coming
Off-site: ERRORS and CRITICISM on thewarningsecondcoming.com
Dr. Mark Miravalle: A closer look at the false prophecies of Maria Divine Mercy
Archbishop Mark Coleridge of the Personal Ordinariate (for Anglicans who became Catholic) in Brisbane, Australia has condemned the apparitions and messages to Marian Divine Mercy: [PDF file]
Off-site: Maria Divine Mercy True or False?
Her bishop has publically stated that many of her messages "are in contradiction with Catholic theology".
200. Sabrina (www.messaggidelsacrocuore.it) - resembles other false private revelations; protrays Jesus as promoting the visionary's website: "My precious site.... " and even claims that the website is a path to salvation: "Soon My site will be born, that is it will be opened to the world, and from it My Eternal Divine Majesty will draw large and substantial glory for and in the salvation of My immortal souls, for whom I have shed all My precious Blood on the Cross."
201. Angelica Zambrano - her false vision of Hell portrays the souls there as if they are repentant, crying out for mercy. But the Church teaches that whoever dies unrepentant from actual mortal sin cannot repent after death. Her false vision of Hell portrays the devils as if they are the torturers of Hell and as if they enjoy being in Hell. Her false visions of Hell also portray Hell as a place where devils hold meetings in order to plan attacks on humanity (as if the devils could come and go from Hell whenever they wish). But Christ taught that God prepared Hell to punish the devils (Mt 25). -- Her false vision of Hell claims that everyone is Hell is continually blaspheming God forever. But this claim is false because it would be unjust for God to permit the innumerable devils and souls in Hell to continue sinning unceasingly forever. Hell is a place of the eternal justice of God, not a place of eternal sinning. Also, if they could sin, they would deserve more punishment; then as their sins continued to increase, their punishment would increase forever, to such an extreme degree as to be unjust. Again, this is not possible, since Hell is a place of proportionate just punishment. -- Her false vision of Hell claims that Pope John Paul II is in Hell, being punished for not preaching the truth. (Apparently, this claim is based on the fundamentalist Protestant point of view of the church to which Angelica belongs.) Her false vision of Hell makes the ridiculous claim that: "Anyone who listens to Michael Jackson's songs or sings them ... will end up in hell." The Church teaches that only those who die unrepentant from actual mortal sin go to Hell; singing a song or listening to a song are not mortal sin (even if the singer is sinful). Her false visions of Hell also claim -- I kid you not -- that children go to Hell for watching cartoons. All this should be sufficient to convince any faithful Christian that her visions of Hell are false.
202. anonymous "40 something year old husband, and father of four" (http://matthewsix25to34.wordpress.com/) -- These messages claim "that just about every illness begins in the soul and transpires from there to our bodies." This claim is contrary to reason and is not found in Tradition, Scripture, or Magisterium. The claim of "Spiritual Genetics" such that a sin is transferred from parent to child by propagation is contrary to Church teaching. God creates each soul at conception, so no spiritual illness can be transferrred to that soul. The created soul lacks sanctifying grace due to original sin, but nothing from the personal sins of an individual are transferred. The claim that Jesus is returning soon is false. Tradition and Scripture teach that many events must occur first -- so many that they cannot be fit into one generation.
203. End-Times-Prophecy.com - the blog of Mike Peralta, promoting claimed messages to Susan Davis (U.S.) and Sabrina De Muynck (Belgium) -- These messages make the false claim that Jesus is returning for this generation; the messages promote the Protestant false teaching of a rapture. The messages made the false claim that the rapture would occur in 2010. The messages claimed that the rapture would occur before the tribulation; they also claim that the tribulation has already started. False claim that the Antichrist is in the world today, and that he will try to implant computer chips in people. (These are common false claims in false private revelations.) These message claim that the messages to Choo Thomas (#195 above) are also true messages from Jesus. Choo's messages claimed that the rapture would occur in 2009.
204. Glynda Lomax (wingsofprophecy.blogspot.com) claims that Jesus is returning soon; claims that the Rapture will remove faithful Christians from the world prior to the tribulation.
205. "Locutions to the World" - Anonymous visionary at Locutions.org, whose messages are announced through a retired priest, Msgr. John Esseff. Messages claim that Russia was never consecreted as requested at Fatima, even though Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzginer (now Pope Benedict XVI) and sister Lucy, the visionary of Fatima, all said that Russia has been properly consecrated. The messages are similar to the other false messages of the above false visionaries, including profane commentary on politics, economics, and current events.
206. Margaret Durbin, false locutionist, margaretdurbin2012.blogspot.com | newtimeprayers.blogspot.com -- the messages claim that the "true Holy Spirit" has not yet been sent upon the world; the messages claim that only six of the seven gifts of the Spirit have so far been given to the world. These claims contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. The messages also confuse the Persons of the Holy Trinity, portraying the Father as saying: "I am the true Jesus Christ Who became man and was born of the Holy Blessed Virgin Mary, His Mother. I sacrificed for all of My children to suffer and die on the Cross for their sins, and they now say I am not The Father in Heaven? I am the true Father, the true God The Father." The messages also portray the Father as saying that He (the Father) is the Holy Spirit: "I am that True Holy Spirit" (God The Father, March 5, 2010). The messages portray the Father saying that He is the Virgin Mary: "All must know I am the true Holy Trinity, the true Father, the true Son, the true Holy Spirit. I am All Three. I am the true Holy Blessed Mary Ever Virgin. I am the Almighty God of the Universe." These messages are contrary to definitive Catholic teaching on the Trinity, and on the Virgin Mary.
207. Stefania Caterina -- She claims that she visits other planets and that God has created other populations in other planets. This type of messages is characteristic of false private revelation. The message of salvation in Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium, and in true private revelation is always about this world and this human race. The group of her followers say that they have no hierarchy, claim to be led directly by the Holy Spirit, and claim that "Any structure or hierarchy of human life in fact stifles the spirit." This type of doctrine implicitly rejects the hierarchy of the Church, and of the family, and of an ordered civil society. Some of the messages further undermine the Catholic Church by representing the Church as merely a collection of believers with different ideas, as if the Catholic Faith were not the truest form of Christianity.
208. Cletus Schefers and Verne Dagenais at www.GodSpeaksWillYouListen.org -- Clear eschatological errors, such as claiming that after the Warning, the Antichrist reigns, and then later the three days of darkness occurs. This order of events is contradicted by many different sources in Scripture and the writings of the Saints. The messages instill distrust of the Church, claiming that an evil antipope will take over, and the true Church will go underground. The messages reject of the Novo Ordo Mass, despite its acceptance by the Church. The claim is made that the Protestants will work with the antipope and the Antichrist against the true Church -- this contradicts the prophecy of the Virgin Mary at La Salette that the Protestants will return to true unity with the Catholic Church.
209. Eliza Garcia - claimed private revelations in the book "I am your risen Lord. I have thus spoken unto Eliza" [Evaluation]
210. Geraldine Kearney of Sydney Australia (divine-inspirations.org) "Divine Inspirations from Jesus and Mary: -- formerly-anonymous locutionist, generally known by her first name. [Evaluation]
211. Elizabeth Kindelmann (theflameoflove.org) -- there are many indicators that this is a false private revelation, even in the few excerpts that they make available online: the claim that there is no greater movement in the Church; the suggestion that this claimed private revelation and its devotion will save the world; excessive talk about Satan and even implicit praise for him: 'for Satan there are no inaccessible places'; the bad spiritual advice that we should increase our desires as much as possible (To the contrary, Scripture says: "Yet truly, each one is tempted by his own desires, having been enticed and drawn away. Thereafter, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin." James 1:14-15); the false theological assertion that Jesus is suffering in Heaven; and poor theology: "From My Sacred Heart also, blood and water spouted out on you, and the powerful desire with which I did it for you."
212. Anonymous Visionary at locutions.org (http://www.locutions.org/) -- these messages are much like the messages of the other false private revelations, listed above. The messages make the false claim that Jesus is returning for this generation, along with the false claim that Israel will soon convert to Catholicism. The messages have worldly language, like calling the Pope "the game changer" and using phrases like "pros and cons". One message incorrectly defines "Papabile", which in the message is phrased "Popabile", as if it meant "able to be Pope". Instead, it refers to those candidates that are seen by the populace and the media as in contention for the papacy. The messages between the time Pope Benedict announced his resignation and the time that Pope Francis was elected are empty commentary, showing no knowledge of the future at all.
Some of the messages at locutions.org comment on specific political situations. This, too, is indicative of false private revelations. One of the messages claims that Satan nailed Jesus to the cross, whereas the Church teaches that it is our sins, chosen by our free will, that (in a sense) nailed Jesus to the Cross. Also, I have noticed that visionaries who are anonymous are almost always false. There are many false private revelations in the world today. If any are from an anonymous visionary, you should consider them likely to be false.
213. Luz de Maria de Bonilla (http://revelacionesmarianas.com/english.htm) "Revelaciones Marianas" -- a false private revelation, making common false claims: distorting the meaning of the great Warning (predicted at Garabandal), claiming that the Antichrist is in the world today, claiming that the Antichrist will become Pope, and claiming that Jesus will return for this generation. All such claims are false. She also claims to have a group of priests following her, who remain anonymous. One message actually claims that we should "Pray, the Yellowstone volcano will mercilessly scourge all of humanity." But a true message from God would never ask us to pray for a merciless scourge on humanity.
214. "Pope Peter the Last" -- visionary and antipope who falsely claims to be the last true pope (http://testimonyofthetwowitnesses.com) Messages claim that Pope Benedict XVII and Pope Francis are antipopes. False explanation of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; the Church teaches that this sin is final impenitence; the visionary claims it is the sin of rejecting his messages. False claim that the Antichrist is in the world today and about to take power (common false claim of false visionaries). False claim that Jesus is returning for this generation. Many other errors.
215. Linda Noskewicz at gods-messages-for-us.com -- makes the false claim that the justice of God "is a cruel and hard thing without the benefit of compassion and Mercy." Correct Catholc doctrine is that, in God, Justice and Mercy are the same; His mercy is always just, and His justice is always merciful. As is typical in false private revelations, the messages make an extreme distinction between the faithful and the lost. Correct Catholic doctrine on this point is found in the teachings of Jesus, who saw good in tax collectors, prostitutes, the Roman centurion, and other sinners. The messages make the false claim that "those who are not [ignorant], sin twice -- once for their behavior or action and again for their knowledge that it is a sin that they so willingly have committed." Correct Catholic doctrine is that every sin includes knowledge that the act is a sin; otherwise, the act is not a sin. So it is false to say that a person sins twice, once by the behavior and second by the knowledge. That is not the way that Catholic moral teaching works.
216. William Tapley (thirdeaglemedia.com) - claims the following: "it occurred to me to ask the Lord, 'who is the eagle of the Apocalypse' (Revelation 8:13). My thoughts immediately answered 'you are!'. This really startled me but I knew that it came from God and was not a product of my imagination." -- No, I think it was his own imagination and pride (or the words of a fallen angel). The false prophets on this list are all self-exalting. Tapley claims to be one of the co-prophets of the end times. He also speaks as if he is the judge over Pope Francis, to decide if he is good or bad. And his interpretation of the passages of eschatology in the Bible is absurd; it has nothing in common with the eschatology of the Saints and of the Church.
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This topic needs its own subforum to keep all the scattered threads together.
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http://youtu.be/B850cAWbWQY
Here is a talk by Fr. Gruner on the last unrestricted interview of Sister Lucy in 1957.
By Fr. Fuentes.
The talk is a hour long and well worth the time.
Using Father Gruner's interview with Sister Lucy has anyone done a speech analysis of Sister Lucy in 1957 versus Sister Lucy II post-1960?
A comparative speech analysis might provide even better evidence than a facial analysis that the two nuns are two different people.
If Sister Lucy survived and had major dental work done post-1960, then her speech pattern would have changed.
The teeth displayed by Sister Lucy pre-1960 could have interfered with her speech, but wearing dentures usually interferes with speech production.
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If Sister Lucia died in 1949 per the information printed below, then the interview with Father Gruner in 1957 was with the fake Sister Lucia.
[Information provided in bracketed red font is my emphasis.]
265 - Maria Lucia de Corazao Imaculado
(dos Santos Lucia de Jesus Rosa)
Nata: 22/03/1907 (Fatima)
Prof: 03-10/1928 [21 years old]
Def: 31/05/1949 [42 years old]
See the link for the chart: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/unknown-photo-of-sister-lucy-2-said-taken-in-1980/msg581375/#msg581375
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However, the picture in this 1957 photo taken of Sr. Lucia seems to indicate that Sr. Lucia had not died in 1949, but was still alive in 1957.
See - https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g23ht_Interview.html
Who are we to believe?
(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_g-k/G023_Lucy.jpg)
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Testimony of Professor Walsh’s Translator, Father Manuel Rocha
Concerning the July 15, 1946 interview between Professor William Thomas Walsh and Sister Lucy (see “Sister Lucy’s Statement to Professor Walsh” (https://fatima.org/about/consecration-of-russia/sister-lucys-statement-to-professor-walsh-july-15-1946/)), Louis Kaczmarek wrote the following in his 1986 book The Wonders She Performs:
While he was the pastor of Our Lady of Fatima Church in Ludlow, Massachusetts, I spent some time with Fr. Manuel Rocha, the interpreter selected for Mr. William Thomas Walsh, who wrote perhaps the most popular book on Fatima. Fr. Rocha told me that one of the questions Mr. Walsh asked him to translate to Sister Lucia during a three hour interview on the afternoon of July 15, 1946, while she was still Sister Maria das Dores, a Dorothean Sister at Vilar, near Porto, Portugal was ‘In your opinion, will every country, without exception, be overcome by communism?’ Her pale brown eyes staring into his, a ‘little dimple on each cheek,’ she answered ‘yes.’ Fr. Rocha related to me that Mr. Walsh wanted to be positive about the answer and therefore repeated the question adding ‘and does that mean the United States of America too?’ Sister Lucia answered, ‘yes.’
Sister Lucia went on to say: ‘What Our Lady wants is that the Pope and all the bishops in the world shall consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart on one special day. If this is done, She will convert Russia and there will be peace. If it is not done, the errors of Russia will spread through every country in the world.’
Fr. Rocha, as well as Mr. Walsh, felt that the consecration had not been made because Our Lady’s wishes had not yet been carried out.
This interview again demonstrates that Sister Lucy has consistently affirmed the requirements for the Consecration of Russia according to Our Lady’s wishes: the Pope, together with all of the world’s bishops, must solemnly and publicly consecrate specifically Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Until this is done, Russia’s errors will continue to spread throughout the world, and the world will be chastised as Our Lady warned at Fatima in 1917.
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Sr. Lucy seemed "the same, original, Sr. Lucy" in her later Fr. Fuentes interview, at Christmastime in 1957 - grave, serious, and still "on point." After this 1957 interview, she was silenced. What actually happened to her then seems a matter of speculation.
Fr. Wathen always maintained that if Sr. Lucy did attend the Novus Ordo Mass, she was wrong to do so. The same with all of us.
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This topic needs its own subforum to keep all the scattered threads together.
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This topic needs its own subforum to keep all the scattered threads together.
Agreed.
Pulling the multiple threads to the top shows it is enough of a popular topic, thank you Neil.
Perhaps when Matthew gets time he will file them together into their own spot.
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The proposition of this OP title implies that the Newmass has legitimacy proved by Sr. Lucy's attendance.
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Well, not so fast!
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If she was bumped off and replaced with a FAKE sometime before 1960, then she never attended the Newmass.
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It would have been the imposter sister lucy that was doing that, so there goes the legitimacy principle out the window.
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Are you sure she is the actual Sister Lucy. What evidence I have seen. I do not
think so.
The real Sister Lucy was removed before the New Order of Mass became official.
There has been the facial recognition proofs posted on CI in the archives.
See for yourself.
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That post was 4 years ago --- now the facial recognition proofs are at an entirely new level, forensic, verified.
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That post was 4 years ago --- now the facial recognition proofs are at an entirely new level, forensic, verified.
Were those actually released yet?
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However, the picture in this 1957 photo taken of Sr. Lucia seems to indicate that Sr. Lucia had not died in 1949, but was still alive in 1957.
See - https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g23ht_Interview.html
Who are we to believe?
(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_g-k/G023_Lucy.jpg)
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I don't see how that photo can be from 1957, since she was supposed to have joined the Carmelites in 1948, but the photo above shows her in a Dorothean habit, not Carmelite. Most likely the photo is just incorrectly labeled 1957.
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I wonder if the switch from the true Sr. Lucy to the false Sr. Lucy was done in the following manner. The real one is removed at some point in time from the monastery at Coimbra and the remaining nuns are informed that she was transferred to another monastery of the Order of Discalced Carmelites, but perhaps they are not informed which one. In any events any attempts by the nuns to communicate via letters with her are thwarted by having their communications go unanswered or answered by some false 3rd party. Or the letters could be answered for a period of time by the real Sr. Lucy, but only for a certain period of time until they are no longer answered or answered by a false
3rd party
Then during a period of transition which could have been some years all the remaining nuns at Coimbra die off or are transferred to other O.C.D. monasteries and replaced by other nuns who have never had a face to face encounter with Sr. Lucy and have never seen any recent photos of her. Eventually, all the remaining nuns are replaced and once that is done the fake Sr. Lucy "returns" to the monastery in Coimbra. That scenario would obviously be planned so as to not have the return of the fake Sr. Lucy raise any suspicions with the "replacement" nuns.