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Author Topic: Sister "Faustina" and DM  (Read 4519 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sister "Faustina" and DM
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2025, 05:14:19 PM »
+W and others jumped to many illogical conclusions with these "miracles".  Even if they were miracles, it doesn't mean that God approves of the new mass; it just means that *some* of the consecrations are valid and Our Lord is present. 

For the 4,000x, a valid consecration DOES NOT EQUAL a pleasing, holy new mass.  I don't understand why so many Trads can't accept this. 

If these "miracles" were legit, it's more likely that God was giving one last gasp of "faith" to those in the new church, who have all but lost their faith in most everything, including his Real Presence.

God answers the prayers of protestants all the time.  Does this mean He approves of protestantism?  Of course not.

And a eucharistic miracle does not mean He approves of the new mass.  It would simply mean that *some* valid consecrations are still taking place.

So, firstly, I don't see where +Williamson concluded anything other than that the NOM can be valid, i.e. that the Rite did not intrinsically invalidate the Mass.

But I disagree with concluding that the miracles even might be genuine ... where you say, IF they're genuine, then "it just means".  You can't assume or even accept that premise without the Church's judgment, and the default Catholic position is they're fake unless the Church determines otherwise (and even then you're not required to accept them).  So there's zero conclusion to be made.

Finally, I disagree in that it's not at all unreasonable to draw the conclusion that God might not be completely displeased with the NOM if He works a miracle, since the thinking is, "Well, why would God give people the impression that it might not be displeasing to Him by working miracles?"  That's an easy speculation to make.

Consequently, if the Mass displeases God, there's no way He would give people that impression.  Since the Mass displeases God, those miracles were fake (either not miracles of diabolical trickery).  As it turns out, there's increasing evidence that the red coloration was due to mold growth.  So much for jumping to conclusions while accepting them as genuine.

So, let me ask you this.  Have you ever heard of a genuine / proven Eucharistic miracle taking place among the Orthodox?  We know that their Liturgy / Mass is valid, so, since that's all that God is trying to communicate with miracle, why not, right?  Well, the why not is because it might give the impression to people that Orthodoxy is pleasing to or at least not completely unacceptable to God.  I researched it ... looking even on Orthodox forums.  I've seen no evidence whatsoever anywhere of Eucharistic miracles taking place among the Orthodox.

Does this constitute solid proof that God would not work a miracle during a Mass that displeases Him?  No, not hard proof ... but it's not at all unreasonable to draw that inference from it, and God would not mislead or confuse souls that way.  ERGO, God would not work a miracle for a Liturgy / Mass that displeases Him.  ERGO, the NOM does not dispelase God.

Except we know that it does, for theological and doctrinal reasons.  We therefore conclude the purported miracles are fakes (either with a natural explanation or a diabolical artifice).  Let's say the SSPX et al. are wrong and the NOM is intrinsically invalid.  Well, if I'm the devil, I want people going to invalid Masses.  So let's fake some miracle to give people the impression that it's valid, since that would mean it's valid ... per your reasoning.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sister "Faustina" and DM
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2025, 05:21:11 PM »
This is the AI summary, and even this is a stretch, since I found NOTHING among the Orthodox, and I've even looked around where the question was asked on Orthodox forums and zilch, zero, nada.

Quote
While specific cases of Eucharistic miracles within the Orthodox tradition might be less docuмented than those in the Catholic Church, there are still reports of various miraculous events associated with the Eucharist. These may include healings, the miraculous preservation of bread and wine, or even the appearance of the bread and wine in unusual ways.

Some some alleged healings, some alleged noncorruption of bread/wine (for how long? ... where there preservatives involved, as McDonald's burgers are known to remain incorrrupt for decades), and what's this "unusual appearance".  That's the best that AI could come up with scouring the internet, and I've not found anything either.

So why not?

I mean, the argument is (from +Williamson and others), that God might work them to increase faith in the Real Presence.  Why not increae the faith of the Orthodox in the Real Presence?  Well because the latter are in error, and God would not encourage the error.  How about the Novus Ordo?  So God would then give countenance to the Novus Ordo erros and the Novus Ordo Mass ... as at least the Orthodox Liturgy is not intrinsically displeasing (in terms of its Ritual).

Online I see multiple copes from the Orthodox by claiming there are healings associated with their Real Presence, and things like "every consecration is a miracle", and one attempt to claim that Eucharistic miracles are worked by God to rebuke or admonish people that are displeasing Him (using it to conclude that Catholics have these miracles because they displease God).