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Author Topic: Siri Thesis:Cardinal Siri's speech praising His Holiness Pope John XXIII as Pop  (Read 1511 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Some people still erroneously claim, as Siri-Vacantists, that Pope John XXIII did not become Pope because supposedly His Eminence Cardinal Giuseppe Siri did. No doubt His Eminence was a good and faithful Roman Catholic; however H.E. always acknowledged the Popes, and would never have sided with the sedevacantists, or any other sects at enmity with the Roman Catholic Church. https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_148_Siri-J23.html

PROGRESSIVIST DOcuмENT OF THE WEEK


Card. Siri's Speech Praising John XXIII


In an attempt to help readers understand the flaws of some traditionalists who imagine Card. Giuseppe Siri, Archbishop of Genoa, was elected Pope instead of John XXIII, we post here the text of the speech the Prelate delivered at a thanksgiving ceremony for the election of John XXIII. This ceremony took place in Genoa in 1958, 10 days after the papal election. After reading this speech it seems impossible to pretend that Card. Siri, supposedly Gregory XVII, was unwillingly deprived of the papacy by an imaginary usurper, John XXIII.

We reproduce first our English translation of Card. Siri's speech, and below it a photocopy of the Italian text of the original speech posted on the Cardinal Siri website, maintained by a group of Genovese scholars who published a book on their late Archbishop. We put in boldface the more compromising parts.




Speech at the thanksgiving service for the election of John XXIII (1958)


"This speech was delivered by Cardinal Giuseppe Siri, Archbishop of Genoa, on November 1, 1958, at the end of the religious service celebrated in his Cathedral of St. Lorenzo recognizing the elevation of John XXIII to the Papacy .


On All Saints Day, a grand and serene sight enlightens the souls of all believers: It is the spectacle of those who throughout time have obtained the Redemption of Christ - either the Christ who will come or the Christ who came - and who now live and reign with Him for all centuries in eternal glory.

There [in Heaven] they reestablish the true and lasting human family, the family of God, without needs, quarrels, defeats and wars. They, the Saints, both the canonized and uncanonized, are at the same time intensely united with us and present to us. As we consider this, the dear and pleasant memories of those we have loved and known return to us, those who preceded us in life and labor make up part of the assembly of Saints. In them shines what on earth death seems to have terminated; they exult over what our human misery each day tries to vilify.

On this luminous and serene day linked to our lives, families and hopes, I have called you together to thank God for the election of our Holy Father John XXIII. The great paternity of God is, since the eve of October 20, represented by this Pope. In him we reencounter our Holy Father, whose visible image was extinguished after the holy death of Pius XII. In him [John XXIII] all men who have sovereigns, chiefs and leaders but do not have a Father, ... recognize - in different ways and degrees - the same general lines and reasons for trust.

Let us thank God because we have a Pope again.


To have a Pope is not a miracle since this is part of the ordained constitution of the Church as established by Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, intense cause for gratitude remains. In each man that is raised to the Throne of Peter, we see again the providential hand of God over History. The Vicar of Christ is always a messenger of the grace and peace that comes from God Himself.

I, who speak to you, participated in the election of the Pope, and as a part of it I experienced the way God - leaving all men free - enters into events of this kind that truly and solemnly mark History. It is impossible for me to say what I felt when, hearing the voice of the Cardinal charged with counting the ballots resounding in the silence of the Sistine Chapel, I learned that the election of the Pope had been achieved. The Gospel and the order of Redemption move in human History revealing its final goals by means of a concrete and visible, social and juridical fact [the election of the Pope], established by the Church. The destiny of secondary points of History are included in the general plan of eternal Providence with a permanent reference to the Gospel and Redemption. These considerations are useful to evaluate what it is to have a Pope, the Head of the Church, and to understand what a change the election of a Pope makes in History.

We have to thank God for the choice He made. Anyone who knew the Patriarch of Venice and has followed the first, brief hours of this pontificate has already became aware of his great and lucid firmness without vacillations, brimming with a simple, cordial, expansive and appealing humanity. This makes one believe that in the aura of this temperament, peace, an invitation to understanding and a cordiality in treatment of others acquire a providential function in the world, a world that lacks reciprocal esteem and an open, confident smile. Everything leads one to think that this type of a man and government gives us, concretely and effectively, a direction and a social norm that are meant offer a better life and encouragement to countless people, not only Europeans, but also and above all, to non-Europeans, who were left far behind at the banquet of earthly goods caused by the greed of egoism. Everything leads one to expect that a new warmth will be disseminated to make relations between Catholics and our separated brethren smoother.

A new dawn has risen and it is singularly promising. Praised be to God !

As we thank God, logic reminds us of the duty that binds us to the Vicar of Christ. It demands affection, reverence and obedience. These are conditions to receive divine favor, because no one can presume divine favor if he does not welcome the one whom Jesus Christ has chosen, in the form and measure determined by Him. At this moment we must clearly understand that we cannot ever separate Jesus Christ from His representative, the visible head of the Church in the world. The gesture of Christ choosing His Vicar always requires that fidelity, clarity, sincerity and reverence that is owed to him.


Among the different ephemeral standards that the world loves to make, let us know how to lucidly discern and evaluate what comes from the passions and vileness, egoism and ignorance, and distinguish it from what comes from the sacrifice of the Calvary and the infinite amiability of God, from a guaranteed teaching and a revealed truth. Let us choose from History the best it has given and what failure never destroyed. Let us treasure the sincere and manifest gesture of a father [the Pope], which calls for any contrary suggestions to be suspended.

May God protect our Holy Father and give us the grace to be faithful to the integrity of our Faith and to His logic, being consistent to the end.







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Offline Ladislaus

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Irrelevant.  We've discussed this 50 times.  But, as per usual, you just keep spamming the same tired old nonsense in over and over again, wasting everyone's time.

Not sure why you're still backing SSPX since you consider Archbishop Lefebvre to have been a heretic.


Offline SeanJohnson

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Irrelevant.  We've discussed this 50 times.  But, as per usual, you just keep spamming the same tired old nonsense in over and over again, wasting everyone's time.

Not sure why you're still backing SSPX since you consider Archbishop Lefebvre to have been a heretic.

So as to not exasperate you, could you please provide a link to a page which you consider contains the best response/rebuttal to this letter of Cardinal Siri?

As it stands, I do not understand how, in the face of this letter, one can maintain Siri was nevertheless pope (unless one wants to argue he was oblivious of the fact, which is impossible).
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Pax Vobis

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Siri may have thought he resigned while, under law, it didn't take effect due to duress.  The "threat" which made him resign did not necessarily have to be personal for it invalidate the resignation.  I've heard that he was told that the "communists" wanted John XXIII to be pope or else they were going to start a persecution of Catholics and WW3.  He was told that he was viewed as an extremist and that in order to avert global catastrophes, there needed to be a "moderate" pope. 
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If something like the above were true, then one could argue that Siri stepped down "of his own accord" and not under duress.  Legally they would be wrong, as duress encompasses both personal and non-personal reasons.  But I can see where Siri (and others) could make the argument that the resignation was done freely.  If Siri believed that he resigned for the "good of the Church" then he obviously would consider John XXIII to be valid, hence he would treat him as a real pope.

Offline SeanJohnson

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Siri may have thought he resigned while, under law, it didn't take effect due to duress.  The "threat" which made him resign did not necessarily have to be personal for it invalidate the resignation.  I've heard that he was told that the "communists" wanted John XXIII to be pope or else they were going to start a persecution of Catholics and WW3.  He was told that he was viewed as an extremist and that in order to avert global catastrophes, there needed to be a "moderate" pope.
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If something like the above were true, then one could argue that Siri stepped down "of his own accord" and not under duress.  Legally they would be wrong, as duress encompasses both personal and non-personal reasons.  But I can see where Siri (and others) could make the argument that the resignation was done freely.  If Siri believed that he resigned for the "good of the Church" then he obviously would consider John XXIII to be valid, hence he would treat him as a real pope.

Thanks Pax.

If this is more or less the main argument of the Pope Siri advocates (an issue I have never studied because of its absurdity on the surface), then I begin to understand why they are so opposed to the idea (shared by the near-unanimous consent of the approved theologians) that the universal and peaceful consent of bishops infallibly ratifies and validates the pontificate of the elected (healing in the root any vice or defect of said election).

Obviously, this makes coercion (direct or indirect) irrelevant, and therefore cannot be admitted.

But the theory of the “oblivious pope” (ie., Siri was pope, but didn’t know it) is certainly the wildest sede invention thus far, and makes the legitimacy of Pope Michael seem more reasonable in comparison.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline Ladislaus

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So as to not exasperate you, could you please provide a link to a page which you consider contains the best response/rebuttal to this letter of Cardinal Siri?

As it stands, I do not understand how, in the face of this letter, one can maintain Siri was nevertheless pope (unless one wants to argue he was oblivious of the fact, which is impossible).

Pax summarized the response to the "argument" implied in this article.  Basically the point of the lengthy article (which could have merely been summarized) was to say that Siri himself acknowledged the V2 Popes as legit.  To which, see Pax's post above.

Offline Ladislaus

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Here's where Siri himself could thought of himself as resigned when in fact he had not legally resigned.

There's a difference between a morally-free act and a legally-free act.

Even if I'm under extreme duress, that doesn't ultimately take my free will away.  So, for instance, Siri COULD have resisted any threats he was confronted with by holding fast and refusing to resign.  In that sense, it was in fact ultimately a morally free act for him to resign, and so Siri considered himself resigned.

But legally, if one resigns under duress, the resignation is invalid ... despite the fact that succuмbing to such duress would have been a morally-free decision on the part of the person who caved to the pressure.

So Siri was operating under the perception, from within his own mind, of having made a morally free decision to cave to this pressure.  But that perspective is irrelevant from the standpoint of law.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
If this is more or less the main argument of the Pope Siri advocates (an issue I have never studied because of its absurdity on the surface), then I begin to understand why they are so opposed to the idea (shared by the near-unanimous consent of the approved theologians) that the universal and peaceful consent of bishops infallibly ratifies and validates the pontificate of the elected (healing in the root any vice or defect of said election).
Well, the Siri situation is quite complex, so you can't apply the "universal and peaceful consent" doctrine as if it were a normal papal election.  Here's how it probably played out (based on the evidence we have of the white smoke and the rumors of a chosen papal name of Gregory).  If I knew the exact papal procedures/process you could probably re-enact the "crime" of threats/duress, but I don't know this much detail.  I'm sure it's in a book somewhere, as the papal process isn't a secret but only the voting is.  Anyway, here's how it could've gone done in real life.
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1.  Siri get the required votes and is elected.  This election happens in the main, large room of the Sistine Chapel, let's not forget.
2.  The "smoke" people are alerted and they start the smoke in the chimney.
     a.  The "smoke" people aren't in the Sistine Chapel, since that area is for Cardinals only.
     b.  They are in another part of the building and are notified by whoever cleric is the "master of ceremonies".
3.  Siri choses the name of Gregory and is ushered off to a side room, so he can vest and get prepared to go outside to the balcony to greet the people.
4.  As soon as Siri is out of the Sistine Chapel, away from the other Cardinals, he is threatened (or the Church is threatened) and he resigns under duress.
5.  Siri returns to the Sistine Chapel and announces his resignation to all the Cardinals.
6.  Immediately, the "smokers" are told to stop the white smoke.
7.  After the chaos and surprise die down between the Cardinals, they start a new election.  None of them would know about the threats/duress that Siri was under, since they weren't in the side room with him. 
     a.  Siri and all Cardinals are under vow of secrecy, so he wouldn't tell anyone, though later in life he made references to mistakes he made that he has begged God for forgiveness.
8.  When John XXIII is elected, all the Cardinals would think that his election is valid, not knowing that Siri's resignation was legally null and void.
9.  All of this could've happened in a manner of minutes, which would coincide with the newspaper accounts of the white smoke being only visible for a short time.
10.  It would've happened quickly because those Modernists/communists who were inside new-rome at the time, would've had this plan in place, as an "emergency measure" if an orthodox cardinal was elected, since he wouldn't go along with V2, which was the ultimate goal, and required getting someone like John XXIII elected.

Quote
But the theory of the “oblivious pope” (ie., Siri was pope, but didn’t know it) is certainly the wildest sede invention thus far, and makes the legitimacy of Pope Michael seem more reasonable in comparison.
Siri wouldn't be oblivious, nor would be (properly speaking) be the pope.  The Cardinals (all except for the evil ones who were in on the threats) would be (or could be) oblivious.  Siri would be the pope-elect only, since he never went through the coronation/mass process.  He would be legally/materially the pope, but maybe not have full spiritual authority (I'm guessing).  John XXIII would be an anti-pope (just like the previous John XXIII in prior church history...a coincidence that is too eerie to be a coincidence.)  John XXIII wouldn't have the spiritual authority, only the temporal/material office (even if by force and trickery).  In essence, the spiritual seat would be vacant.


Offline King Wenceslas

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Siri Thesis:  Absurd to the nth degree.

No wonder the human race will seek to annihilate itself, it is dumber than mud.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Can you explain what's absurd about it?  What are your explanations for the following facts?
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1.  White smoke for a few minutes, indicating a papal election, then black smoke.
    a.  This has never happened before, since smoke was used for papal elections.
    b.  The Vatican has never given an adequate answer why/how this "mistake" happened.
2.  Unbiased, 3rd-party, FBI testimony says there was an election of Siri.
    a.  It is said that Siri took the name of "Gregory".
    b.  FBI wiretapping of "communist leaning" Cardinals proved that Siri was elected, since those Cardinals were illegally and immorally communicating with the outside world before,     during and after the conclave.
3.  Multiple interviews with Siri before he died corroborated the above story, if indirectly, since Siri cannot break his vow of secrecy directly.
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To date, there's been no other "theory" on how/why the white smoke happened.  In absence of another explanation, the above is the only theory which fits all the facts together.

Offline Incredulous

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  • Some people still erroneously claim, as Siri-Vacantists, that Pope John XXIII did not become Pope because supposedly His Eminence Cardinal Giuseppe Siri did. No doubt His Eminence was a good and faithful Roman Catholic; however H.E. always acknowledged the Popes, and would never have sided with the sedevacantists, or any other sects at enmity with the Roman Catholic Church. https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_148_Siri-J23.html

    PROGRESSIVIST DOcuмENT OF THE WEEK


    Card. Siri's Speech Praising John XXIII
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    There's a precedence for Peter failing, without murder threats to family and nuclear destruction.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline roscoe

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  • Siri Thesis:  Absurd to the nth degree.

    No wonder the human race will seek to annihilate itself, it is dumber than mud.
    MO is that absurd to the nth degree == the idea that the anti-pope frank is actually true Il Papa... :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Yeti

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  • We were just discussing the Siri thesis last week. You may find the discussion there of interest: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/st-pope-fabian-and-cardinal-siri/

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Siri Thesis:  Absurd to the nth degree.

    No wonder the human race will seek to annihilate itself, it is dumber than mud.

    Would you mind phrasing this brilliant argument of yours in the form of a syllogism?

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Still not tired of lying, I see, Liarslaus. Your lies, calumnies and slanders have been answered n times before. Next time, if you want to at least approximate to a true statement, try saying something like this: "XavierSem considers me, Liarslaus, to probably be a liar and a 62 year sedevacantist heretic". I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but at least it wouldn't be as blatantly false as your open lies. I consider Archbishop Lefebvre a holy, heroic and saintly man - which doesn't, however, mean that he was infallible, or correct on every last detail, at every point in time. Archbishop Lefebvre also has nothing to do with your ridiculous Siri Theory, and you only bring this up always when you're defeated on other points. I also have hardly mentioned Siri-Vacantism before, as it is generally too absurd to take seriously.

    Yes, I agree King Wenceslas. It is an absurdity. Now, some possible syllogisms for others to develop as you wish:

    Syllogism I, a very general one: Siri-Vacantists claim Siri was their Pope. Therefore, they should do as he did. But Cardinal Siri recognized Pope John XXIII as his Pope. Therefore, siri-vacantists should give up their schismatic opinions, of slandering a good man by making him an invented anti-pope, and recognize that Pope John XXIII was the Pope, accepted even by their own "Pope"..

    Syllogism II, on supposed "Pope" Siri: If Cardinal Siri was Pope, he would have enjoyed the infallible guidance of the Holy Ghost. But Cardinal Siri recognized the New Mass wasn't an intrinsically evil Black Mass/Vatican II wasn't a totally heretical Council. Therefore, Siri-Vacantists should do the same, being guided by the "Pope" they claim was infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost. 

    If one appeals to duress, first of all duress will not totally annul the assistance, but only lessen it. Second, one should realize the simpler and truer explanation is that Pope Paul VI himself was subject to duress, from Beneli, Casaroli, Villot etc, as many facts prove. Similarly, Pope John Paul I was martyred by Cardinal Villot. Pope John Paul II had an assassination attempt ordered against him; Ali Agca named Cardinal Casaroli. There was a true power struggle going on in the Vatican in the 70s and 80s, quite different from the naive ideas of the sedevacantists, that the communists and others had supposedly completely triumphed by the 60s itself; with no need for assassinations.

    All in all, His Eminence Cardinal Giuseppe Siri was an excellent Roman Catholic Cardinal. TIA presents some important historical information, btu I totally disagree with their biased commentary. There's nothing for Roman Catholics who read it to be ashamed of or embarrassed in it. Only sedes and crypto-sedes like Siri-Vacantists are ashamed by it, as it doesn't support their embarrassing theories.

    These are all astonishingly beautiful Catholic statements: "As we thank God, logic reminds us of the duty that binds us to the Vicar of Christ. It demands affection, reverence and obedience. These are conditions to receive divine favor, because no one can presume divine favor if he does not welcome the one whom Jesus Christ has chosen, in the form and measure determined by Him. At this moment we must clearly understand that we cannot ever separate Jesus Christ from His representative, the visible head of the Church in the world. The gesture of Christ choosing His Vicar always requires that fidelity, clarity, sincerity and reverence that is owed to him." Let the Siri-Vacantists do this.