Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'  (Read 3248 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2726
  • Reputation: +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
« on: August 09, 2009, 06:38:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8017
    • Reputation: +2452/-1105
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 07:41:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is really too bad that you were not alive to tutor poor, ignorant St Alphonsus in Latin, CM!!
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 08:30:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's your refutation?

    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 09:45:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From the Latin Vulgate....

    As he was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him.
    adhuc eo loquente ad turbas ecce mater eius et fratres stabant foris quaerentes loqui ei

    And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee.
    dixit autem ei quidam ecce mater tua et fratres tui foris stant quaerentes te

    But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law: They hated me without cause.
    dixit autem ei quidam ecce mater tua et fratres tui foris stant quaerentes te

    There are many more examples, but this should suffice.

    Was Jerome in error?

    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 10:07:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, in similar fashion, from the Vulgate

    And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfil all justice. Then he suffered him.
    respondens autem Iesus dixit ei sine modo sic enim decet nos implere omnem iustitiam  tunc dimisit eum

    Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?
    aut quomodo dicis fratri tuo sine eiciam festucam de oculo tuo et ecce trabis est in oculo tuo

    And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless.
    qui autem est seminatus in spinis hic est qui verbum audit et sollicitudo saeculi istius et fallacia divitiarum suffocat verbum et sine fructu efficitur


    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 10:09:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry, Jerome would not be in error, silly of me to say, Jerome is not translating.  

    But those who did, the entire team of translators, they were in error?

    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #6 on: August 09, 2009, 05:11:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #7 on: August 09, 2009, 05:17:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Except through, is simply not justified.  Get it?  :laugh2:


    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3013
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #8 on: August 09, 2009, 06:32:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    That's your refutation?


    A) It certainly suffices as it is most certain that he understood the language much better than you.
    B) I've already refuted your erroneous application of logic, as well as the erroneous presentation of form, so I'm not sure why you persist.
    C) No Doctor of the Church ever exposited heresy, much less claimed heresy was a de fide truth, ergo, you are way out of line.  You are so far out of line that you're simply casting yourself out of communion the more you obstinately persist in this foolish misunderstanding.  

    I could produce more, but I won't waste my energy.

    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 07:07:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Malarkey.  You have proven nothing at all. :fryingpan:

    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 07:07:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I never said it wasn't the same thing (fruitless-without fruit).  You had just said the only way to translate sine was to without.

    After all...

    Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    ...any Latin scholar will tell you that sine means without.


    In each circuмstance, the word was altered because it would have altered the meaning of the text, or made it, for lack of a better term, wrong.

    Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote without of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?

    It makes perfectly good etymological sense, if you will, to translate sine to 'except through', especially if we are defending baptism by blood or desire. (As all the great Church doctors did.)

    Applying a law that would not have been used by Trent, thereby altering the original meaning of the decree, puts us at odds with what has always been taught by the Church, and at odds with another decree itself, that we are to maintain the dogma's in the sense they were proclaimed.


    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #11 on: August 09, 2009, 08:04:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #12 on: August 09, 2009, 08:24:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No one is disputing the instrumental cause, nor is anyone asserting people are not justified without baptism, just without water baptism, no?

    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #13 on: August 09, 2009, 08:38:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SSPX
    The Latin for the text below has: "sine qua nulli unquam contigit iustificatio." In the Latin original, therefore, the phrase "without which" (or, in the Latin original, "sine qua", is a feminine pronoun meant to agree with a feminine noun) refers to the "faith" (a feminine noun in Latin) and not to "sacrament" (a neuter noun in Latin meant to agree with a neuter pronoun). If it was "sacrament" the Council Fathers wanted to highlight "without which no one is ever justified," they would have written "sine quo."


    Courtesy of the [SSPX

    Offline CMMM

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 263
    • Reputation: +9/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Sine: 'Without' vs 'Except Through'
    « Reply #14 on: August 09, 2009, 08:49:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Additionally, reading the article got me interested in their point about original sin and Mary.

    Quote from: Pope St. Zosimus, Epistle Tractatoria ad Orientalis Ecclesias, 418 (Denzinger 109a) - Council of Carthage
    "By [Christ's] death that bond of death introduced into all of us by Adam and transmitted to every soul, that bond contracted by propagation is broken, in which no one of our children is held not guilty until he is freed through baptism."


    This is the quote they speak of, stating absolutely no one is exempt from original sin.  

    Would not all decrees stating Mary's freedom from original sin, after this, constitute denial of dogma? (Mayhaps this is why Thomas was so nervous to write such.)