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Author Topic: Since when does being Catholic require a canon law/theology/history degree?  (Read 59672 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Yep ... the "De Lugo" quote narrows it down.

Nishant Xavier ... get off this forum.  You've been repeatedly banned for being an anti-Traditionalist troll, and once banned, you're not welcome back without prior permission of the Moderator, which I doubt you obtained or even sought.

Offline Ladislaus

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Nishant's sleight of hand here using fake translations.  Actual Latin of Pope St. Gregory the Great's letter to the Muslim King:
Quote
Hanc itaque charitatem nos et vos specialibus nobis quam cæteris gentibus debemus, qui unum Deum, licet diverso modo, credimus et confitemur, qui eum Creatorem sæculorum et gubernatorem hujus mundi quotidie laudamus et veneramur.

Latin uses the term "veneramur" (along with "laudamus" ... praise).  But Nishant's mendacious translation renders to "venerate" as "adore".

As you, Latin theological terms are precise.  "adoration" is reserved to worship of God.  "veneration" is directed towards creatures.  Pope St. Gregory's use of this term clearly refers to a natural reverence they have but one cannot adore God without the supernatural faith of who He actually is.

PS:  Vatican II says Muslims "adore" the One True God using the Latin of "adorare" in both Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate.

Suarez, citing St. Thomas, backs up this distinction, where he says that they might have a natural belief in and reverence for Him.

That's the key distinction Nishant is deliberately obfuscating.  We can know about the nature of God and His natural attribute through natural reason (as taught by Vatican II) ... although even that could be somewhat fraught with error.

But, as Our Lord taught, we cannot know the FATHER except through His Revelation, i.e. in so far as the supernatural Three Persons go.  Yes, Aristotle, Muslims, Jews, can all to some extent come to belive in, to naturally "know" God, but they cannot adore Him, since adoration requires true supernatural knowledge of God.

Bellarmine, moreover, uses the Latin "colunt", which mean to make religious observances toward, or make acts of honor, not "worship", as falsely translated, which could imply adoration.

Finally, De Lugo, whose orthodoxy was otherwise suspect, just says "acknowledge" (making it pointless to even bother with the Latin).


Offline Stubborn

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I like this quote from Bread of Life:

Saint Augustine said: "Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. He can have honor; he can have the Sacraments; he can sing ‘Alleluia’; he can answer 'Amen'; he can hold the Gospel; he can have faith in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach;but never, except in the Catholic Church can he have salvation.”

Offline Stubborn

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I still stand by my argument about historical analogies. To me, saying "this time it's different" - and that earlier groups who broke with the Church (even though they also had elaborate arguments that sounded convincing to a layman's ear, and were often willing to suffer persecution for their views) were just in error, but we in our situation somehow aren't - that's a huge stretch.

Therein lies your mistake, the reason I say this is because this time, it really is different.

In Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. Wathen said something along the lines of: "The Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column," which I think perfectly describes what happened this time - which is what makes this time altogether different because this time, the enemy is within.

What is a "Fifth column?"

Google:
"A Fifth Column is a hidden group of people who work to hurt their own country or team from the inside. They secretly help an outside enemy."

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
I like that quote too. But are you inside the Catholic Church - which consists of the local Church of Rome and the diocese throughout the world n union with it?  If you're not in union with your local bishop and don't attend Mass at a Church aproved by him, you are separated from the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. 

The Catholic Church does not subsist in hundres, or thousands, of individual sects, separated form each other and from the Roman Catholic Church.  That's one of the many heresies of the fake Traditional movemnt.  The real Catholic Church enjoys a unity of government that is both diachronic and syncrhonic, consisting of the body of bishop in union with the Pope; or, put differently, in the local Church of Rome and the diocese throughout the world in union with it. Since you don't belong to that Church, you cannot be saved, as Autustine teaches in the quote you sited.
It is error to think that a place or building is "the Church." The "conciliar church" (name given it by PJPII) is not the Catholic Church, although that is what you claim it to be. Always, always always try to remember what PPIX and the Church has always taught - that Christ and the Church are one and the same. 

Remember that when reading all those Scripture verses, like: "No one comes to the Father except through Me" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" and on and on and on.