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Author Topic: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy  (Read 4973 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2023, 04:59:53 AM »
Go back and read beyond the first paragraph.  I quoted Vatican I, Pius IX (Tuas Libentur) and the Oath Against Modernism.

But think about what Stubborn and now Marulus Fidelis are claiming.  Stubborn believes the teaching of a council should be qualified as heretical, not because it contradicts a previously defined dogma, but simply because it had not been explicitly taught by the Magisterium previously.  If you applied that criterion to the Council of Trent, many of the anathemas would be heretical. 
No, the NO doctrine contradicts defined dogma and what the Church teaches. Please permit me.....

You quoted V1 and Tuas Libenter, but you misunderstand what you quoted. You quoted V1 (bolded mine):
Quote
"Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed." De Filius).
This clearly binds us to Catholic truths by virtue of "divine and Catholic faith", not to popes and bishops. Which is to say the Catholic faith is the first thing needed if we are to believe "all those things." To say PPIX *really* means we are bound to popes and bishops is to completely change the context of what is being taught.

You then quoted Tuas Libenter:
Quote
"And therefore we are also intimately convinced that they did not intend to declare that perfect adherence to revealed truths, which they acknowledged to be absolutely necessary for the true progress of the sciences and for the refutation of errors, can be had if one lends faith and obedience only to dogmas expressly defined by the Church. For even if it were a question of that obedience which is concretely due to divine faith, this obedience should not be limited to truths expressly defined by decrees of ecuмenical Councils or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See, but must extend also to truths which by the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, spread throughout the world, are transmitted as divinely revealed, and therefore by the common and universal consent of Catholic theologians are held to be matters of faith." (Tuas Libentur)
Again, this clearly binds us to Catholic truths, not popes and bishops. We are bound no less to either the Church's OUM or the EM because what we are bound by is the truth, which, as PPIX put it in V1, is contained "in her ordinary and universal magisterium." Your quote says "in her ordinary and universal teaching power" which is saying the same thing, i.e. that what we are bound to is Catholic truths.

I am with Pope Pius IX in Tuas Libenter because to me, there is no better definition of what the Church's Magisterium is:
The Magisterium, or if you wish, the Church's Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."  This is the Church's infallible magisterium, this is what has "immunity from error" (PPXI) and is the "living, perpetual magisterium" and "truth propagated, and as it were, delivered from hand to hand." (Pope Leo XIII)    

The Church's Extraordinary Magisterium is "dogmas  expressly defined by the Church," or as your translation has it, "truths expressly defined by decrees of ecuмenical Councils or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See."

I could go on, but instead I just want to say SPelli that whoever you are, whether Salza or not, in a weird sort of way it is refreshing to communicate this subject with one who actually believes the lies to be truth - and on that account actually lives this belief insofar as you reject tradition according to the new religion. IOW, you're not using this belief as a reference against the status of popes.

At any rate, in our talks, please remember that if trads are wrong now, then all Catholics for the previous 2k years from Pentecost till V2 were wrong, which is altogether absurd to even consider.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2023, 05:15:36 AM »
Stubborn, SPelli is correct about the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. Read Footnote #40 in the Lumen Gentium quote that you provided.

Here is your original quote from Lumen Gentium again:

Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.(40*) This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecuмenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.(41*)

Here is the text of Footnote 40 in Lumen Gentium:
Explained in my previous post.

At any rate, to post it again....

For us, we know that after Pentecost, at the decent of the Holy Ghost upon Our Blessed Mother and the Apostles is when St. Peter and all the Apostles were made individually infallible. God did this in order to establish and facilitate the beginnings of the Church throughout the entire world.

This being the case, whatever each of the Apostles, individually dispersed as they were  throughout the world taught regarding the faith, by virtue of the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, were most certainly:
1) each individually infallible, and on that account,
2) whatever they taught regarding the faith, they would have all taught the exact same thing in unison, as such,
3) no matter what they taught regarding the faith, because they all taught infallible truth, they would have all been in agreement with each other and St. Peter - not to mention with all the future popes whenever they speak ex cathedra till the end of time.

That's infallibility, that's how infallibility works, that's how infallibility worked when the Church on earth was in it's infancy. Our Pentecost's foundation is where the Church's infallibility was born and built on infallible truth which can never change whether dispersed throughout the world or all together.

OTOH, the NO's Second Pentecost's idea of infallibility is built upon the idea that, "truth is what we say it is", it's "the unanimous agreement of the totality of bishops in union with the pope that makes teachings infallible", which as we have seen for the last 60 years, is entirely and utterly false.

It is at V2 where even the very definition of "infallible" took on a new meaning - this new meaning is inherent in the NO doctrine of LG 25.2. This is because since V2, it means whatever the pope and bishops teach regarding the new religion is infallible, it therefore means whatever was taught by whomever prior to V2 is really nothing more than yesterdays headlines and a memory they strive to erase (except when they want to pull this or that out as a reference to show they're in line with tradition).


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2023, 06:46:12 AM »
Another dodge.  Don't direct me to something someone else wrote, quote the alleged heresy yourself and explain why it is heretical.

I already said that I'm not going to waste my time on you, since it's obvious that you've already made up your mind on the matter.  If I'm wrong and you're sincere, then have a look at the link.  I could cite any number of things from that docuмent.  Vatican II considers the non-Catholic groups to be "particular Churches" that are part of the one Universal Church.  Vatican II explicitly states that God uses false religions as a means of salvation and holds that there can be salvation outside the Church.  60+ years of "Papal" "Magisterium" can be cited (Dimonds have many some many-hour-long videos detailing it all) along those lines as well, all rejecting the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church ... by expanding the Church to include non-Catholics.  This radical shift is very clear, despite your denials, and Karl Rahner, who greatly influenced the orientation of V2, made this clear.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2023, 08:45:47 PM »
No, it doesn't consider non-Catholic groups to be particular Churches.  It considers particular Churches to be/remain particular Churches even if they are presently occupied by an orthodox bishop not in union with the Pope.

Do you know what a particular Church is?  A particular church is a lawfully established see, either an Apostolic see (one founded by an Apostles) or an episcopal see (one legally established by a subsequent Pope), with rights, duties and privileges attached to it, to be enjoyed by the bishop who is appointed as its head.  The universal church is made up of thousands of particular Churches.  They exist in the universal Church and the universal Church exists in them.

When a bishop dies, and his see falls vacant, the particular Church itself continues to exist as part of the universal Church, waiting for its new head to be appointed.  If, for some reason, a non-Catholic "bishop" was illegally appointed as its head, the particular Church itself would continue to exist (with the rights, duties and privileges attached to it), while awaiting a new legally appointed head to be appointed.

Now, the Orthodox have particular churches. Some were founded by an Apostles and others were legally established by a Pope.  The problem is that the bishop who heads them is not in union with Rome and was probably (this is where it gets tricky) not legally appointed.

But a lawfully established particular Church does not cease to be part of the universal Church simply because it has been usurped.  It remains a particular Church that belongs, by legal right, to the universal Church that legally established it.

So, although you didn't quote Vatican II, what it probably teaches is that the orthodox have particular Churches, which is true, and not that it "considers non-Catholic groups to be particular Churches."  No Protestant sect or Anglican sect is a particular Church, and any episcopal see that the orthodox have, which was not lawfully established by the Catholic Church, is not a true particular Church.

Correct again. Much of the railing against the Vatican II docuмents is simply over-zealous misunderstanding. The real problem with the official docuмents of VII is the intentional ambiguity found in certain phrases therein. And by definition if that phrasing is "ambiguous" it can be interpreted in both good and bad ways. And as Benedict XVI tried to explain, these ambiguities should be interpreted using a "hermeneutic of continuity" to avoid the misunderstandings.

All of the players, the Sedes, the SSPX, and the modernist destroyers use the wrong hermeneutic, the "hermeneutic of rupture," to interpret the meaning of those ambiguous phrases. The Sedes conclude that the Popes "defected" by teaching heresy, not understanding the precise definition of "heresy." The SSPX concludes that the Popes "defected" in some sense but "no one can judge the Pope," so they just "recognize and resist" him. And the modernists use their interpretation of VII to justify their propaganda and carry out their destructive goals.

The only sane view is the one that is constantly ignored: that the Vatican II docuмents were not precisely "heretical" because it is impossible to pin down a precise meaning for the ambiguities that cause the problem. An ambiguity is not a "heresy."

Having said all of that, there are many bad things that Church authorities (especially national conferences of bishops) have done since Vatican II, claiming falsely that Vatican II authorizes those things. And the Sedes and SSPX are correct to fight against that. None of the Popes since VII were able to stop the modernist demolition of the Church (if they even tried). But Bergoglio is not one of them, because he's not a canonically-elected Pope. He is simply a usurper of the papacy and a heretic. He is "the eighth and is of the seven [kings], and goeth into destruction" (Apoc. 17:11).

Catholics of good will need to stop fighting each other and fight the real enemy: Antichrist Bergoglio.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Signing the V2 Docuмents and Heresy
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2023, 09:31:27 PM »
The only sane view is the one that is constantly ignored: that the Vatican II docuмents were not precisely "heretical" because it is impossible to pin down a precise meaning for the ambiguities that cause the problem. An ambiguity is not a "heresy."
Except there are plenty of well docuмent heresies in vatican II that aren't ambiguous. The dimonds and novusordowatch have done a nice job on this.