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Author Topic: should I be a seda? uncertain  (Read 5808 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2018, 05:08:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 13, 2018, 03:51:59 PM
    Actually we've had no pope since Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits. ;)
    I actually think I prefer poche over Herm despite the fact that both are Novus Ordites.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 05:32:51 PM »
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    • Herm is a Novus Ordo troll and should not be fed.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 05:34:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on January 12, 2018, 03:55:11 PM
    If this is so, then I don't see how this argument can be made against sedevacantism, because the promise of indestructibility of the local Church of Rome would be compromised when there is NO legitimate Vicar of Christ living there. During an interregnum, there is no Roman Pontiff.

    Precisely; my point has been that this argument is no different than any broader argument against sedevacantism (of the ecclesiavacantist variety).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 05:38:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 08:43:10 PM
    Thank you for honestly admitting that you believe the Roman Church has defected.

    Logic doesn't seem to register with your mind.

    As I said earlier, please draw some implications vis-a-vis the present Crisis from the notion that the Roman Church can't defect.  Until then, no one is even in a position to refute this nonsense.  We don't even have an argument to address.  It's also true that the Church as a WHOLE cannot defect.  R&R claim that SVism causes the Church as a whole to defect based on the idea that jurisdiction would have ceased.  SVs argue that R&R causes the Church to defect because it posits a massive systemic failure of the Magisterium.  But nobody has any idea what implications you're trying to draw or what argument you're trying to make from this notion that the Roman Church can't defect.  You just keep mindlessly pasting in the same CE quote over and over again.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #49 on: January 13, 2018, 05:41:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 13, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
    Herm is a Novus Ordo troll and should not be fed.

    Nobody knows WHAT it is.  Heck, it doesn't even have an assigned gender.  Maybe Herm is short for hermaphrodite for all we know.

    This Herm either won't or can't even articulate itself to the point that anyone has any idea where it stands on the Crisis.

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #50 on: January 14, 2018, 05:47:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2018, 05:41:25 PM
    Nobody knows WHAT it is.  Heck, it doesn't even have an assigned gender.  Maybe Herm is short for hermaphrodite for all we know.

    This Herm either won't or can't even articulate itself to the point that anyone has any idea where it stands on the Crisis.
    Even though he does not come out and admit it, he has to accept all the post Vatican II popes and Vatican II.  Otherwise, based on his assertions, he would have to believe that the Roman Church has defected.  Don't you see?  I think he knows that to admit this here would create a firestorm.

    IF that is not true, then he could always deny it.  But he has not done so to date.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #51 on: January 14, 2018, 06:01:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 14, 2018, 05:55:04 AM
    Well, what's your thoughts? Has the Roman Church defected? If not, please explain...
    :sleep:
    See Lad?  
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #52 on: January 14, 2018, 07:53:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 14, 2018, 05:55:04 AM
    Well, what's your thoughts? Has the Roman Church defected? If not, please explain...

    I've already explained my thoughts on the matter.  What we haven't heard from you is an explanation of your position ... to the point that no one knows what you are, R&R, Resistance, some weird flavor of SV (like those who think we haven't had a pope since St. Pius X), Palmerian, follower of Pope Michael, Novus Ordo, Orthodox, Old Catholic, man or woman?

    Obviously the Roman Church and the Catholic Church at large have not defected; they can't defect.  Question is how we reconcile this truth with what we're seeing in the Crisis.

    And obviously no Catholic believes that the Church has defected, so you're beating a dead horse and wasting everyone's time.

    Until you explain what your position on the Crisis is, I'm not going to bother responding to you anymore ... since we're wasting our time trying to infer a position from you.  Sure, different groups of Traditional Catholics accuse other groups of having a theology which implies a defection, but until we hear your actual argument, there's nothing more to discuss with you.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #53 on: January 15, 2018, 02:48:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 10:49:52 PM
    It is not just the pope alone. It is the whole Roman Church cannot defect and fail in her mission. St Robert Bellarmine actually points this out.

    But that is only an opinion and St. Bellarmine himself is careful to present it as such. He insists that his thesis is not a matter of divine faith, but pie credendum.

    I am looking forward reading any other evidence you may have on this particular point. (indefectibility of the local Church of Rome in itself, apart from / without the pope).
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #54 on: January 15, 2018, 10:30:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 15, 2018, 09:12:54 PM
    You agreed with the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia - what more do you need?

    As a Roman Catholic one accepts that the particular Church which all other particular Churches are in communion is the Roman Church. It is the only particular Church which indefectability is assured.

    So where is that Roman Church today?
    The Church will be in eclipse, the world will be in dismay Our Lady of La Salette 19 Sept. 1846
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #55 on: January 16, 2018, 03:19:30 PM »
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    • You have a strange theology of Church, Hermenegild. Why talk of churches? Are you a protestant? The Church is ONE, holy, CATHOLIC (universal), apostolic. 

    So what is this "All particular Churches / Just the Roman Church?" of which you speak?

    Our Lady at La Salette spoke of the Church being in eclipse, the world being in dismay. It's a simple enough concept. We can observe this for ourselves 171 years later.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #56 on: January 16, 2018, 03:58:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on January 16, 2018, 03:19:30 PM
    You have a strange theology of Church, Hermenegild. Why talk of churches? Are you a protestant? The Church is ONE, holy, CATHOLIC (universal), apostolic.

    So what is this "All particular Churches / Just the Roman Church?" of which you speak?

    Our Lady at La Salette spoke of the Church being in eclipse, the world being in dismay. It's a simple enough concept. We can observe this for ourselves 171 years later.
    She also said Rome would lose the Faith.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #57 on: January 16, 2018, 05:01:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 16, 2018, 03:58:14 PM
    She also said Rome would lose the Faith.
    I believe this means Rome as the head of the Church.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #58 on: January 16, 2018, 05:06:14 PM »
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    • Hermenegild, when we use expressions like Church of Rome, Church of Cologne, Church of Auckland etc what we mean is 'diocese of' the One Catholic Church whose head is in Rome.

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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #59 on: January 16, 2018, 05:39:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 16, 2018, 05:09:06 PM
    Well that's no doubt why the Holy Office proscribed discussion of La Salette. I think that was under Pope St. Pius X.

    I did a google search for what you state above, and couldn't find anything at all which said that the Holy Office proscribed discussion of La Salette.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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