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Author Topic: should I be a seda? uncertain  (Read 5804 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 11:35:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 10:26:26 AM
    A "sede" is an updated term for an "Old Catholic". Basically they believe the Roman Church has defected (even though they're never honest enough to admit it).

    The correlation between sedes and Old Catholics does work rather well. The Old Catholics separated from the Church due to issues over papal authority, if I'm not mistaken. I don't see why any sede would have an issue with the comparison. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 12:03:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 11:48:15 AM
    Hit a raw nerve?
    It is important to fairly and accurately represent positions that one does not hold oneself.  When one fails to do so, it is common for people to object or even to make disparaging comments. This seems to be what occurred in this thread.

    It is unlikely that you hit a raw nerve.  I suggest you work on obtaining a clearer understanding of sedevacantism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 11:48:15 AM
    Hit a raw nerve?

    Uhm, no; it's because there's no comparison with Old Catholicism.  Sedevacantists are merely applying a probable opinion regarding what happens to a heretical pope and have made a judgment that the V2 papal claimants have been heretics.  So St. Robert Bellarmine was an Old Catholic eh?  One can argue, as I do, that they're not applying this principle correctly, but they're operating within a completely Catholic framework ... and so there's no comparison whatsoever between SVism and Old Catholicism.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 12:36:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 12, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
    Uhm, no; it's because there's no comparison with Old Catholicism.  Sedevacantists are merely applying a probable opinion regarding what happens to a heretical pope and have made a judgment that the V2 papal claimants have been heretics.  

    Applying a probable opinion, no. They usually believe with absolute certainty that the Pope isn't the Pope, or as in your case, that the pope has limited jurisdiction, and anyone who disagrees is a heretic.

    The Old Catholics had an issue with jurisdiction. Do you not also have an issue with jurisdiction?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #19 on: January 12, 2018, 01:35:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 12:36:13 PM
    The Old Catholics had an issue with jurisdiction. Do you not also have an issue with jurisdiction?

    I thought the followers of +Lefebvre also have an issue with jurisdiction?
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 01:38:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on January 12, 2018, 01:35:58 PM
    I thought the followers of +Lefebvre also have an issue with jurisdiction?

    How so?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 01:38:24 PM
    How so?

    I believe that having an "issue with jurisdiction" can be said to be a common element among all traditionalists not in communion with Rome at present time. Not only the sedevacantists.

    I don't think you can sucessfully argue a similarity between the Old Catholics and the sedevacantists simply over "the issue of jurisdiction", especially from a separatist R&R stance.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 02:03:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on January 12, 2018, 01:58:51 PM

    I don't think you can sucessfully argue a similarity between the Old Catholics and the sedevacantists simply over "the issue of jurisdiction", especially from a separatist R&R stance.

    If you believe that there's no similarity between Old Catholic and sedes regarding jurisdiction, that's your choice. I see a similarity.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Beacon of the Sspx

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 02:27:02 PM »
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    • No. The papal election is not infallible. Its a canonical election just as when an abott is elected in a monastery. But, the pope cannot cease to be a pope just because of material heresy. Legally, the cardinals in the church have to recognize the pope for the pope to have his office.we have a classical state of legal and illicitness here. Legally in a sense he is pope, but he should not be. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 02:43:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 12:36:13 PM
    Applying a probable opinion, no. They usually believe with absolute certainty that the Pope isn't the Pope, or as in your case, that the pope has limited jurisdiction, and anyone who disagrees is a heretic.

    The Old Catholics had an issue with jurisdiction. Do you not also have an issue with jurisdiction?



    ... conflating and confounding things as usual.  St. Robert Bellarmine's opinion is a probable Catholic opinion.  That is the opinion I referred to as probable.  Now SOME (not all, but some) SVs believe that the non-legitimacy of the V2 popes is essentially de fide; these are known as DOGMATIC sedevacantists.  Others believe that it's certain or very probable or rather likely ... or some degree of probability.  I fall into the category of those who consider it highly probable.  Some "sedes" are in fact sedeprivationists who believe that these papal claimants hold a material legitimacy but do not formally exercise power.

    Uhm, all Catholics believe in jurisdiction.  What's disputed is whether the V2 papal claimants have some or all or no jurisdiction due to their state of illegitimacy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 02:45:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
    If you believe that there's no similarity between Old Catholic and sedes regarding jurisdiction, that's your choice. I see a similarity.

    As per usual, Meg, you see what you want to see.  You base everything on emotion and should therefore probably recuse yourself from all theological discussions.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #26 on: January 12, 2018, 02:48:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hermenegild on January 12, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
    There certainly are similarities with the Old Catholics in their view about the Church of Rome.
    And there are no similarities between what St. Robert and what they are saying about a heretical pope.
    They ignore St. Robert's teaching about the local Church of Rome. He wrote a whole chapter on it but it is conveniently ignored by the sedes.

    You appear obsessed with this Church of Rome issue.  But has this Church of Rome retained the faith any more or less than the broader Conciliar Church?  No.  So it's a moot point ... even though you think yourself quite clever.  Yes, some critics of sedevacantism make the so-called Ecclesiavacantist argument, and they have a point.  But that's where the CT and so-called sedeprivationism fit in.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #27 on: January 12, 2018, 02:48:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 12, 2018, 02:45:04 PM
    As per usual, Meg, you see what you want to see.  You base everything on emotion and should therefore probably recuse yourself from all theological discussions.

    I'm pretty sure that laymen aren't supposed to be teaching theology at all. That includes you.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #28 on: January 12, 2018, 02:49:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 01:38:24 PM
    How so?

    Like knowing that he didn't have any and operating as if he did anyway?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: should I be a seda? uncertain
    « Reply #29 on: January 12, 2018, 02:50:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 12, 2018, 02:48:34 PM
    I'm pretty sure that laymen aren't supposed to be teaching theology at all. That includes you.

    Who exactly is "teaching"?

    And, if you truly believe this, then why are you on here promoting your various positions?
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