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Author Topic: Shocking review of Popes new book  (Read 5863 times)

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Offline SJB

Shocking review of Popes new book
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2011, 08:57:36 AM »
Quote from: Raoul76
You think he is infallible only when he speaks ex cathedra, correct, that means twice in the last two centuries?  What kind of Church is it that you have created in your fevered imagination, Stevus?


In support of ...

Quote from: Scheeben
SECT. 31 — Papal Judgments and their Infallibility.

I. The Pope, the Father and Teacher of all Christians and the Head of the Universal Church, is the supreme judge in matters of Faith and Morals, and is the regulator and centre of Catholic Unity. His decisions are without appeal and are absolutely binding upon all. In order to possess this perfect right and power to exact universal assent and obedience it is necessary that they should be infallible. The Vatican Council, completing the definitions of the Fourth Council of Constantinople, the Second Council of Lyons, and the Council of Florence, and the Profession of Faith of Pope Hormisdas, thus defines Papal Infallibility: “The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra — that is, when, in discharge of the office of Pastor and Doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the Universal Church — by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that Infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals ; and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves and not from the consent of the Church.” (Concil. Vat., sess. iv., cap. 4).

II. The person in whom the Infallibility is vested is the Roman Pontiff speaking ex cathedra; that is to say, exercising the highest doctrinal authority inherent in the Apostolic See. Whenever the Pope speaks as Supreme Teacher of the Church, he speaks ex cathedra; nor is there any other ex cathedra teaching besides his. The definition therefore leaves no room for the sophistical distinction made by the Gallicans between the See and its occupant (Sedes, Sedens). An ex cathedra judgment is also declared to be supreme and universally binding. Its subject-matter is “doctrine concerning Faith or Morals;“ that is, all and only such points of doctrine as are or may be proposed for the belief of the Faithful. The form of the ex cathedra judgment is the exercise of the Apostolic power with intent to bind all the Faithful in the unity of the Faith.

The nature and extent of the Infallibility of the Pope are also contained in the definition. This Infallibility is the result of a Divine assistance. It differs both from Revelation and Inspiration. It does not involve the manifestation of any new doctrine, or the impulse to write down what God reveals. It supposes, on the contrary, an investigation of revealed truths, and only prevents the Pope from omitting this investigation and from erring in making it. The Divine assistance is not granted to the Pope for his personal benefit, but for the benefit of the Church. Nevertheless, it is granted to him directly as the successor of St. Peter, and not indirectly through the medium of the Church. The extent of the Infallibility of the Pope is determined partly by its subject-matter, partly by the words “possessed of that Infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed for defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals.” Moreover, the object of the Infallibility of the Pope and of the Infallibility of the Church being the same, their extent must also coincide.

From the Infallibility of ex cathedra judgments, the council deduces their Irreformability, and further establishes the latter by excluding the consent of the Church as the necessary condition of it. The approbation of the Church is the consequence not the cause of the Irreformability of ex cathedra judgments.

III. Ex cathedra decisions admit of great variety of form. At the same time, in the docuмents containing such decisions only those passages are infallible which the judge manifestly intended to be so. Recommendations, proofs, and explanations accompanying the decision are not necessarily infallible, except where the explanation is itself the dogmatic interpretation of a text of Scripture, or of a rule of Faith, or in as far as it fixes the meaning and extent of the definition. It is not always easy to draw the line between the definition and the other portions of the docuмent. The ordinary rules for interpreting ecclesiastical docuмents must be applied. The commonest forms of ex cathedra decisions used at the present time are the following:—

1. The most solemn form is the Dogmatic Constitution, or Bull, in which the decrees are proposed expressly as ecclesiastical laws, and are sanctioned by heavy penalties; e.g. the Constitutions Unigenitus and Auctorem Fidei against the Jansenists, and the Bull Ineffabilis Deus on the Immaculate Conception.

2. Next in solemnity are Encyclical Letters, so far as they are of a dogmatic character. They resemble Constitutions and Bulls, but, as a rule, they impose no penalties. Some of them are couched in strictly juridical terms, such as the Encyclical Quanta cura, while others are more rhetorical in style. In the latter case it is not absolutely certain that the Pope speaks infallibly.

3. Apostolic Letters and Briefs, even when not directly addressed to the whole Church, must be considered as ex cathedra when they attach censures to the denial of certain doctrines, or when, like Encyclicals, they define or condemn in strict judicial language, or in equivalent terms. But it is often extremely difficult to determine whether these letters are dogmatic or only monitory and administrative. Doubts on the subject are sometimes removed by subsequent declarations.

4. Lastly, the Pope can speak ex cathedra by confirming and approving of the decisions of other tribunals, such as general or particular councils, or Roman Congregations. In ordinary cases, however, the approbation of a particular council is merely an act of supervision, and the decision of a Roman Congregation is not ex cathedra unless the Pope makes it his own.




Shocking review of Popes new book
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2011, 09:07:53 AM »
This is why I've asked in the past for there to be a separate Crisis section for non-sedes. Some sedes here reduce EVERY news item and discussion to Pope bashing, vigorously promoting their absurd "thesis", attacking other Trads, comparing them to Neo-Caths if they believe there is a Pope, etc.

It's getting really tiring and is creating an atmosphere in this subforum that kills all true discussion.

The mindset of the sede is completely different from that of an SSPX'er. The sede has already thrown the baby out with the bathwater and assumes a false reality through which he sees and interprets all events spreading his despair, rash judgment, and hopelessness through all he touches.

If you want to live in your fantasy world of your own making where BXVI doesn't exist and you run your own church and you are your own Pope like a Prot, be my guest. But keep your judgment and robotic propaganda sound bytes to yourself.

A fruitful discussion is only possible with other Traditionalists who are not living in a false reality with false premeses.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Matthew created this site and has it posted that this is a forum dedicated to the SSPX view of the crisis. Sedes are here as a courtesy. It is precisely because of this problem that hardly any other Trad forum allows sedevacantist discussion.

If I wanted to get into a sede debate EVERY TIME I post, there should be a subforum dedicated to sedevacantism I could go into.

As it stands I want to talk about issues regarding the crisis in the Church WITHOUT discussing sedevacantism. That is becoming almost impossible on this forum as some sedes turn every crisis discussion into a referendum as to who is Pope. It is toxic and fatal to this entire subforum which is one of the main purposes of the larger forum.

I again urge Matthew to please create a separate Crisis forum where sedevacantism discussion is banned and/or ban it from this subforum and create a separate Sede subforum.

Thank you.


Shocking review of Popes new book
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2011, 09:36:46 AM »
The problem really is NOT bad use of the Extraordinary Magisterium of either pope or council.

The problem is that the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium is just as infallible as the Extraordinary Magisterium.  The problem is that many people want to downplay individual statements that Conciliar priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes make--declaring them not to be intended as infallible declarations (which is true)--while ignoring the FACT that many of the statements are, in themselves, declarations of a belief in heretical propositions.  Though it may, in some cases, simply be an erronious opinion, there comes a time (and that time was reached long ago) that one who knows his faith can see clearly that the statements being made are statements of Protestants, not Catholics.

  While each and every statement of any one individuals (such as Benedict 16) does not invalidate his claims to the papacy, many of them do invalidate his claims to be a Catholic.  Though I admit that many people do read into what he says at times based on other things he's said.  

The fact is that he cannot be trusted to speak the Catholic Faith.

Shocking review of Popes new book
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2011, 09:41:54 AM »
Quote
No, the sedes have the correct view of infallibility, which is that a Pope is infallible when he teaches on matters of faith and morals to the universal Church i.e. in encyclicals, but not necessarily in speeches.  


Read SJB's post above.  Obviously, you do not have an adequate understanding of this doctrine or its practical application.  Neo-Catholics (a legitimate term to describe Catholics who have adhered to all things new) have the same understanding of this doctrine at least in application as do the Catholic who concludes there must be no Pope.  This is the common thread that joins the two extremes.  One follows every word because it emanates from the "magisterium" the other rejects the person who possesses the magistracy because they detect error in the same medium.  The whole thing turns on this notion, as well as the nature of the ordinary universal magisterium, which incidently, John Lane and John Daly have misunderstood as well, denying that an essential characteristic is extension in time, i.e. tradition.  But it follows that if infallibility cannot be applied in practice to any of these statements, propositions or actions, the possibility of error remains, however remote.  The remoteness of the thing shouldn't offend the taste for I fail to see how the remoteness of the possibility of the invalidity of a series of Pontiffs is any different.

Now if infallibility is removed from the equation, the only thing left is to demonstrate pertinacious heresy which even if accomplished amounts in the end to one's opinion.  Anyone familiar with the history of theology will know that even the greatest, most learned theologians have disagreed as to what constituted an heretical proposition.  

I certainly understand why some would be so scandalized by the Conciliar Popes that they feel compelled to conclude the vacancy.  The problem lies soley in the fact that these same men desire to form their communion around this opinion, to make it quasi-mandatory.  This is a serious mistake for the many reasons given in the past.  This theoretical variety leads to even greater errors, most especially does it lead to sinning against brotherly love.

On the practical level, there is no material difference between a traditional Catholic who has refrained from discerning who remains a member of the Church whilst at the same time withdrawing, as per the command of the Apostle, to practice the traditional Catholic faith, and the sedevacantist.  Morally speaking, the Popes have been absent for the last 40 years.  I see no reason to venture into the canonical question.      

Shocking review of Popes new book
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2011, 02:44:35 PM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
This is why I've asked in the past for there to be a separate Crisis section for non-sedes. Some sedes here reduce EVERY news item and discussion to Pope bashing, vigorously promoting their absurd "thesis", attacking other Trads, comparing them to Neo-Caths if they believe there is a Pope, etc.

It's getting really tiring and is creating an atmosphere in this subforum that kills all true discussion.

The mindset of the sede is completely different from that of an SSPX'er. The sede has already thrown the baby out with the bathwater and assumes a false reality through which he sees and interprets all events spreading his despair, rash judgment, and hopelessness through all he touches.

If you want to live in your fantasy world of your own making where BXVI doesn't exist and you run your own church and you are your own Pope like a Prot, be my guest. But keep your judgment and robotic propaganda sound bytes to yourself.

A fruitful discussion is only possible with other Traditionalists who are not living in a false reality with false premeses.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Matthew created this site and has it posted that this is a forum dedicated to the SSPX view of the crisis. Sedes are here as a courtesy. It is precisely because of this problem that hardly any other Trad forum allows sedevacantist discussion.

If I wanted to get into a sede debate EVERY TIME I post, there should be a subforum dedicated to sedevacantism I could go into.

As it stands I want to talk about issues regarding the crisis in the Church WITHOUT discussing sedevacantism. That is becoming almost impossible on this forum as some sedes turn every crisis discussion into a referendum as to who is Pope. It is toxic and fatal to this entire subforum which is one of the main purposes of the larger forum.

I again urge Matthew to please create a separate Crisis forum where sedevacantism discussion is banned and/or ban it from this subforum and create a separate Sede subforum.

Thank you.


 :rolleyes:

Who are you, Sungenis?



If you watch the entire debate, which you may have already, Sungenis "threatens to walk out" if he is offended one more time. Doesn't that strike you as a "race card" type of move?

If the Truth offends you, stevus, then GO! Banning sedes aka Traditional Catholics from the Crisis forum (or any portion of the forum, in  my opinion) would be the height of sophomoric impetuosity and a total disregard for any nature of "truth seeking".

Usualy Raoul is leading the battle cry here, but I will wave that banner once again and say What is WRONG WITH YOU!???!!