Author Topic: Serious questions (Read 3379 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #15 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:21:09 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

While you are out, I will see if I can induce your neighbor to throw a brick through your computer monitor and drive his car back and forth over the computer itself several times. :cheers:

:roll-laugh2:

DeMaistre · « **Reply #16 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:56:08 AM »

I saw an interview on CNN about "Neda", and people were all saying "She's a martyr! She went straight to Heaven!", but it is not so. She is likely in Hell, she supported the liberal Mousavvi, was a Mohammedan, and probably died in mortal sin.

CatholicMartyr...um, I think I know your problem now. Hate is unhealthy (I know this sounds like something a Novus Ordo-ite would say). It clouds the mind. I try to stay detached from any emotion at all.

CM · « **Reply #17 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:51:59 PM »

If you see a person walking towards a building wearing a red shirt, and then you see him about to enter, his hand on the door and showing no signs of stopping, but you turn around and leave a split second before he would pass through the doorway, then it's a moral certainty that he went in wearing a red shirt. That's not to say that he didn't stop, take a blue shirt out of his backpack and replace the red shirt with it, but all outward signs that you have seen showed this guy to have entered the building wearing a red shirt.

My grandfather raised a family of apostates, and showed no outward signs of repentance or conversion. It is a moral certainty that he is in hell, and if anyone still wants to argue with me on this, you better look up "moral certainty" before doing so.

That's not to say that it's impossible God saved him, for His mercy is great, but it would certainly call into question His justice. It would be folly to undermine either one of these perfect Divine Attributes.

1 St. Peter 4:18 "And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

St. Matthew 7:13: "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat."

Some people don't seem to understand or accept that we are bound to believe as the Faith requires us to believe. We must believe according to the harmonious relationship of Sacred Scripture and Tradition, so of course I believe my grandfather is in hell.

Quote from: DeMaistre

CatholicMartyr...um, I think I know your problem now. Hate is unhealthy (I know this sounds like something a Novus Ordo-ite would say). It clouds the mind. I try to stay detached from any emotion at all.

Young man, your statement implies that I have a problem. Surely everyone else on this board thinks so, because I reject the heresy BoD even as logic and Church teachings dictate I must. You also reject BoD as heresy, and I often wonder why you are not more vocal about it, especially when your voice could lend support to defending the Truth in the various threads which touch on the topic.

As for hate being unhealthy... Is it unhealthy to hate sin? Is it unhealthy to hate devils? Is it unhealthy to hate one's own sinful actions? Is it unhealthy to hate Judas Iscariot?

I do not hate any person on this forum. I love each and every one for the sake of God, who created the nature of each one, but who hates their sins (and mine). This love is commanded by God and often repeated in Scripture."

Why then, does the Lord say "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."?

Doesn't this contradict the command to love our neighbour as ourselves? No. It is because we must hate evil. When someone dies and goes to hell, there is no good in them at all, they are evil through and through, being punished by God with privation of any and all good. We of course are bound to hate the souls in hell.

Psalms 96:10: "You that love the Lord, hate evil,"

No DeMaistre. My problem is not hate, and you should agree now that I have explained the valid Catholic perspective of my just hatred of evil, and the fact that we are commanded in Scripture to have such hate. My problem is the same as everyone else's; fallen human nature and the fact that I am despicable in the sight of God for my countless sins against him, which, although repented, still give me great shame and fear and trembling.

TheD · « **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2009, 04:58:40 PM »

Most of my relatives are with in the novus ordo.
1.) I can not judge whether they are in hell or not.
2.) I hate the devil who is in hell and the sins and temptation he causes.

Prodinoscopus · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:08:48 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

That's not to say that it's impossible God saved him, for His mercy is great, but it would certainly call into question His justice. It would be folly to undermine either one of these perfect Divine Attributes.

Are you going to go so far as to second guess God Himself?

This is the whole point: the moment of judgment is between Our Lord Jesus Christ and the individual soul. You are not privy to that discussion.

CM · « **Reply #20 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:28:43 PM »

I'm not second guessing God at all. I am assenting to His Truth, and judging according to justice.

CM · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2009, 05:29:44 PM »

Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:24:44 PM »

I kind of agree with Catholic Martyr here, not with his hate, but that there are certain ways we know that certain people are most likely in hell.

We don't KNOW know. But it's not "judging" to say that someone who is an atheist, for instance, is already condemned because as Jesus says "He who doesn't believe is already condemned."

If he thinks baptism of desire is a heresy then he is right to say that I am on the road to hell according to his dogmas, just as I think he is on the road to hell through his schism ( refusal of communion with other Catholics ).

Raoul76 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:29:30 PM »

DeMaistre, is it true that you think BoD is a heresy?

Where do you go to church? Are you under a priest and bishop?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:49:48 PM »

CM, I think what some are sensing is that you are primarily driven by hate. Yes, we must hate sin and hate the devil but hate should not overtake love.

Michael the Archangel may slash away at the devil but after that work is done he can chill out and have a picnic with his friends in heaven and be perfectly happy. He is not bored by peace. He doesn't sit around moping going "What will I do now? My war is over, I have no more purpose!"

It is not the fight against the devil that drives him. Love drives him. That action against the devil just happened to be one thing he did. I don't think the many people out there who adopt a victorious, self-righteous pseudo-Michael the Archangel attitude understand that.

In a way I'm talking to myself as much as to you. But you also may need to work on this balance. The times we're living in are very conducive to pride and self-promotion. The hierarchy has fallen and in a way it makes each of us more important. Suddenly our voices matter. The head tends to get puffed-up.

The more I think about it, I would say you are not driven by hate so much as by confrontation. I see this in your screen-name itself. Many of the early Christians would overzealously seek martyrdom in a way that was almost like ѕυιcιdє. Did they really crave heaven and glory or were they driven by a sort of carefully-disguised defiance?

Martyrdom is a gift God grants to specific Chosen, it's not something you go out and grab for yourself. But at the beginning of my Catholic life I was obsessed with getting martyred so I know where you're coming from. It's a necessary step whereby we overcome fear of the world or what it might say to us or do with us.

I still see the Feeneyites as sadomasochistic and overly in love with battle and invective. They rend themselves and they rend each other, as shown by your denial and hatred of Fr. Feeney himself. There's a "No honor among thieves" atmosphere that reigns among you people that shows me God has made a firm decision about which side He supports on the BoD issue.

I strongly believe that if everyone flipped and came around to your way of thinking on this issue, the very next day, you would invent some other heresy and start throwing people out of your personal version of heaven left and right on that basis, because that is how you get your jollies. Forgive me if I'm being unjust but this is how I see the Michael Dimonds of the world. These people revel in calling others heretics; even in pictures of them, their heads tilted back, arms folded across their chests like Mussolini, you can see their absurd demonic pride. Is there one person on Earth besides themselves that they DON'T think are heretical?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2009, 06:54:08 PM »

And is that a bullfight you have in your icon?

I rest my case.

Prodinoscopus · « **Reply #26 on:** June 23, 2009, 07:16:50 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?

I think it is very likely that Nero is in hell, but I do not know that he is in hell.

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Catholic Martyr: why is it so important for you to know that certain individual people are in hell?

Prodinoscopus · « **Reply #27 on:** June 23, 2009, 07:21:30 PM »

D***it, Raoul76, sometimes you are very wise.

CM · « **Reply #28 on:** June 23, 2009, 07:41:47 PM »

Quote from: Prodinoscopus

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?

I think it is very likely that Nero is in hell, but I do not know that he is in hell.

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Catholic Martyr: why is it so important for you to know that certain individual people are in hell?

You changed the word 'believe' into 'know', thus changing the whole discussion, and trying to put words in my mouth. No, sir I never said anyone knows that anyone else is in hell, nor must they. But it is foolishly imprudent to believe contrary to the tenets of the Faith and hope for anything contrary to the same tenets.

Quote from: Raoul76

And is that a bullfight you have in your icon?

I rest my case.

That's a lion looking at a group of delicious Christians.

You rest your case? You have no case, just more psychobabble. You believe a heresy, BoD, because so many men tell you to and so you attack me, yes indeed unjustly.

Unlike a certain someone I know (not from this forum), I do not want to be nor do I think myself the only Catholic in the world.

I find it telling that you would recognize the unjust nature of your comment and fling it nonetheless.

By the way, I hate invective. I find it counterproductive and I think you'll be hard pressed to quote me using it. There is a big difference between invective and calling heresy heresy, and asserting that it's willful believers go to hell. Caminus uses invective, with no backup other than his opinions. I assert the Truth and I present the authoritative teachings from whence It is extracted.

And for the record, I'm not driven by hate. Hatred of sin is only one of many factors motivating me, in addition to contrition, or attrition, maybe, I don't really know which. I don't think we can know.

Anyway, if ad hominem will make you feel better and draw people away from the fact that Baptism of Desire is truly untenable in Catholic Theology, then I certainly understand why you and others continually use it.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 23, 2009, 08:07:41 PM »

Sorry about the bullfight accusation.

I believe in BoD and BoB because the CATHOLIC CHURCH tells me to, not just "some men." There has to be some order here. Just because the last five Popes are apostates doesn't mean we are freed to suddenly rifle through Church history throwing out whomever we choose. The sedevacantist crisis is not an excuse to go on a power-trip. You start off against BoD and then to defend this you make Benedict XV an anti-Pope. Then you realized that Bellarmine supported BoD so you say he is a heretic. You graciously consent that Aquinas was not a heretic because he suggested a belief in BoD before your arbitrary definition of when some Pope defined the necessity of water baptism using the word "or" in a way that only you understand. What's next, you want to take Augustine out of the Church because Protestants used his arguments as a basis for their theory of salvation by faith alone and human lack of free will? When does it end when someone sets themselves up as the judge and jury without submitting to the hierarchy ( which is now the sedevacantist priesthood )? The answer is never.

You are acting like a force of destruction, not unity, don't you see that? On my side there is Bishop Dolan and Bishop Pivarunas and their priests in America, numerous traditional priests, numerous French and Polish sedevacantist priests, as well as the Siri-ites and sedeprivationists. On your side... Michael and Peter Dimond ( and those aren't even their real names, nor, from what I understand, are they real monks ). Granted, one side is not correct because it has greater numbers. Vatican II has the greatest numbers of all. But I believe in the Catholicity of the men that I've cited and they all have a coherent policy of picking up where Pius XII -- by no means an anti-Pope and a hugely underrated Vicar of Christ who correctly assessed the evil on both sides of World War II -- left off. I disagree with these men on certain aspects of history and politics but am in complete union with them on the faith.

Do you expect me not to pick a side? Especially when your side leads to home-aloner mania? Please tell me, who in the world besides yourself do you think is Catholic? I want to know.