Author Topic: Serious questions  (Read 2968 times)

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Offline CM

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Serious questions
« on: June 21, 2009, 10:59:49 PM »
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  • How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?

    Answer these questions please if you have the stones:

    1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?

    2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 11:23:57 PM »
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  • I have a very small family, but here goes:

    My father is in Novus Ordo but we haven't talked for ten years.

    My grandmother on my mom's side dropped out of the Catholic Church in the 1950's  and began reading Betty Friedan and saying things like "I don't like submitting to a man."  The chances are not only great that she is in hell, but I believe she was an actual witch.  

    My grandfather's only theological opinion was that he didn't see "what kind of God would allow innocent children to suffer."  He was a simple soul who needed guidance from someone other than my grandma, but she yanked him away from the Church.

    My uncle is a resolute atheist and scientist.

    ( 1 ) I am not the one who judges who is in hell, but according to the Church's teachings my grandma and grandpa are in hell and my father will also be going if he doesn't escape this counterfeit "Church."  My uncle is already condemned because he doesn't believe.

    ( 2 ) Sometimes I feel hate for my grandmother, because she had a deliberate, burning hatred towards the Church.  She also endangered my mom's soul.  The rest I am sorry for.  I have been thinking of re-establishing contact with my father and trying to help him see the truth, but the chances are slim.

    Do you think, CM, that the Church requires us to hate those who are lost?

    If my mother lost the faith that one would be very, very difficult for me, but I would still follow Christ and leave her to her fate.  My fear of God and my fear of hell is too great to follow anyone who puts me at risk.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 11:32:58 PM »
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  • Oh sorry, you were asking about dead relatives.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    « Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 12:16:13 AM »
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  • Quote
    ... if you have the stones ...

    So I guess that the ladies cannot answer your question?

    For such a serious Catholic, that seems a rather crude and worldly thing to say.

    Anyway, I've got 'em and I'm game for your question.

    My uncle died recently. He was a homosexual and a determined atheist.  He was also an apostate, having been raised the right way by my very devout Catholic grandmother.

    1) Of course I assent to the Church's teaching that those who die outside the Catholic Church will go straight to hell. (By the way, that's going to spell big trouble for one of us.)

    2) To hate my uncle, I would have to know that he died outside the Church and is, in fact, in hell. I don't have that knowledge, only God does.

    I hate the devil, because it is an article of the Faith that he is in hell.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 01:35:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?

    Answer these questions please if you have the stones:

    1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?

    2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?


    Why worry about all those other people when you should really just consider your own situation and the fact that you are clearly on the road to hell yourself.  The demon that is currently tormenting your mind will be the one allowed to take you there.  


    Offline clare

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    « Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 03:42:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?

    Answer these questions please if you have the stones:

    1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?

    2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?


    If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?

    Offline clare

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    « Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 03:44:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Prodinoscopus
    2) To hate my uncle, I would have to know that he died outside the Church and is, in fact, in hell. I don't have that knowledge, only God does.


    Quite.

    Offline DeMaistre

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    « Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 09:47:43 AM »
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  • To my knowledge, I haven't had a non-Catholic relative die yet, but I wouldn't hate one if they did, I would be more disappointed that they threw away the graces that God gave them. No one cares.


    Offline CM

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    « Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 09:47:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prodinoscopus
    So I guess that the ladies cannot answer your question?

    For such a serious Catholic, that seems a rather crude and worldly thing to say.


    You know, I never realized what that expression meant.  I never really thought about it.  I will never use it again.  Also, I didn't realize you were a lady.


    Quote from: Prodinoscopus
    I don't have that knowledge, only God does.


    While it is true that if he was baptized you cannot know for sure if he dies outside the Church or not, since he may have died with perfect contrition, but if he were unbaptized, you know he is outside of the Church.

    Quote from: Caminus
    Why worry about all those other people when you should really just consider your own situation and the fact that you are clearly on the road to hell yourself.  The demon that is currently tormenting your mind will be the one allowed to take you there.  


    I definitely worry about my own salvation, but you think that I am on the road to hell because I reject your antipopes.  I definitely do NOT worry about anything you have to say.

    Quote from: clare
    If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?


    Anyone who dies outside of the Church is definitely in hell.  If a baptized person showed no outward signs of repentance from heresy or schism, then it is a moral certainty that they are in hell.

    Quote from: DeMaistre
    To my knowledge, I haven't had a non-Catholic relative die yet, but I wouldn't hate one if they did, I would be more disappointed that they threw away the graces that God gave them. No one cares.


    My grandfather was something else.  He was a really funny guy and I loved him very much.  He would laugh at all our jokes, even the lame ones.  He would act surprised and say "Hokey doodle!"  He drew caricatures and cartoons of most of the notable people in our town like the mayor, and all other sorts of people, including us kids.  He taught me how to draw.

    I never heard him swear, except on time when he said "da*nit", but I also never heard him say two words about God, outside of at family dinners when he would say "God is great, god is good, let us thank him for this food."  Grandma is Anglican, and goes to 'church' regularly, but I never really knew Grandpa's stance.

    Anyway, my Novus Ordo mother tried to get them to convert to 'Catholicism' (or what she thought was Catholicism) before he died.  She brought a bunch of literature from what I understand, talking about the Early Church, but they wanted none of it.  My uncle Brian got very angry about it (he is an atheist- he once said "Grandma is god") and my Uncle Michael never has any kind words for her, that I remember.  I have broken all ties with the lot of them; they are evil to the core, and they love every bit of it.

    There are appropriate contexts for every verse of Scripture I'm sure.

    St. Luke 14:26: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

    My Grandfather is in hell.  This is a moral certainty.  He raised a family of apostates to love the world more than God, and paved the way to hell for most of them.  I hate him.  He is now blaspheming God and he will do so again and again for all eternity.  I hate him, I hate him, I HATE him.

    Offline clare

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    « Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 04:09:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    While it is true that if he was baptized you cannot know for sure if he dies outside the Church or not, since he may have died with perfect contrition, but if he were unbaptized, you know he is outside of the Church.


    We still don't know that. For all anyone knows he may have been baptised secretly. And there is also that BOD business!

    Quote
    Quote from: clare
    If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?


    Anyone who dies outside of the Church is definitely in hell.  If a baptized person showed no outward signs of repentance from heresy or schism, then it is a moral certainty that they are in hell.


    We do not have the knowledge that they have not repented.

    Quote
    My Grandfather is in hell.  This is a moral certainty.  He raised a family of apostates to love the world more than God, and paved the way to hell for most of them.  I hate him.  He is now blaspheming God and he will do so again and again for all eternity.  I hate him, I hate him, I HATE him.


    You do not know that. And the Church herself is not so bold to say that about anyone whose chances of getting to Heaven seem slim to us. So how can you be?

    I'll pray for your granddad if you won't.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 04:54:59 AM »
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  • CM,

    It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to know about the eternal state of ANYONE - sans private revelation from God.

    GO - Take a VERY LONG hike in the most beautiful country in your area.  Breathe DEEPLY, ENJOY the beauty God has placed all around us.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 04:57:11 AM »
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  • While you are out, I will see if I can induce your neighbor to throw a brick through your computer monitor and drive his car back and forth over the computer itself several times. :cheers:
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline clare

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    « Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 05:14:41 AM »
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  • Catholic Martyr,

    Try approaching a trad priest and asking if he would be willing to offer Mass for your granddad who you believe died outside the Church.

    I doubt any priest would say that there's no point, because he's in Hell.



    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    « Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 08:28:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    Also, I didn't realize you were a lady.

    I'm not.

    :laugh2:
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    « Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 08:51:30 AM »
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  • CM, I'll bet that even Bishop Sanborn will disagree with you on this one.

    Apart from a direct revelation from God, none of us -- not one -- knows with moral certainty that any particular person is in hell.

    All that we know with moral certainty -- the certainty of Faith -- is that hell is real and unrepentant sinners go there.

    I wonder if Fr. Feeney himself actually believed that he could say with moral certainty that this or that person was in hell.

    I've been thinking about this question in the context of the media coverage of "Neda", the young Iranian woman whose death by gunshot to the heart was captured on video. Was "Neda" a Catholic? Was she in a state of grace when she died? How can we know? What about those people filmed there with "Neda" in her dying moments, looking directly into her eyes, how can they know?
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

     

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