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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: CM on June 21, 2009, 10:59:49 PM
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How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?
Answer these questions please if you have the stones:
1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?
2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?
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I have a very small family, but here goes:
My father is in Novus Ordo but we haven't talked for ten years.
My grandmother on my mom's side dropped out of the Catholic Church in the 1950's and began reading Betty Friedan and saying things like "I don't like submitting to a man." The chances are not only great that she is in hell, but I believe she was an actual witch.
My grandfather's only theological opinion was that he didn't see "what kind of God would allow innocent children to suffer." He was a simple soul who needed guidance from someone other than my grandma, but she yanked him away from the Church.
My uncle is a resolute atheist and scientist.
( 1 ) I am not the one who judges who is in hell, but according to the Church's teachings my grandma and grandpa are in hell and my father will also be going if he doesn't escape this counterfeit "Church." My uncle is already condemned because he doesn't believe.
( 2 ) Sometimes I feel hate for my grandmother, because she had a deliberate, burning hatred towards the Church. She also endangered my mom's soul. The rest I am sorry for. I have been thinking of re-establishing contact with my father and trying to help him see the truth, but the chances are slim.
Do you think, CM, that the Church requires us to hate those who are lost?
If my mother lost the faith that one would be very, very difficult for me, but I would still follow Christ and leave her to her fate. My fear of God and my fear of hell is too great to follow anyone who puts me at risk.
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Oh sorry, you were asking about dead relatives.
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... if you have the stones ...
So I guess that the ladies cannot answer your question?
For such a serious Catholic, that seems a rather crude and worldly thing to say.
Anyway, I've got 'em and I'm game for your question.
My uncle died recently. He was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ and a determined atheist. He was also an apostate, having been raised the right way by my very devout Catholic grandmother.
1) Of course I assent to the Church's teaching that those who die outside the Catholic Church will go straight to hell. (By the way, that's going to spell big trouble for one of us.)
2) To hate my uncle, I would have to know that he died outside the Church and is, in fact, in hell. I don't have that knowledge, only God does.
I hate the devil, because it is an article of the Faith that he is in hell.
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How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?
Answer these questions please if you have the stones:
1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?
2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?
Why worry about all those other people when you should really just consider your own situation and the fact that you are clearly on the road to hell yourself. The demon that is currently tormenting your mind will be the one allowed to take you there.
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How many of you have relatives who have died outside the Catholic Church?
Answer these questions please if you have the stones:
1) Do you assent to the Church's teaching that these people are in hell?
2) If so, do you love them still or do you hate them?
If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?
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2) To hate my uncle, I would have to know that he died outside the Church and is, in fact, in hell. I don't have that knowledge, only God does.
Quite.
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To my knowledge, I haven't had a non-Catholic relative die yet, but I wouldn't hate one if they did, I would be more disappointed that they threw away the graces that God gave them. No one cares.
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So I guess that the ladies cannot answer your question?
For such a serious Catholic, that seems a rather crude and worldly thing to say.
You know, I never realized what that expression meant. I never really thought about it. I will never use it again. Also, I didn't realize you were a lady.
I don't have that knowledge, only God does.
While it is true that if he was baptized you cannot know for sure if he dies outside the Church or not, since he may have died with perfect contrition, but if he were unbaptized, you know he is outside of the Church.
Why worry about all those other people when you should really just consider your own situation and the fact that you are clearly on the road to hell yourself. The demon that is currently tormenting your mind will be the one allowed to take you there.
I definitely worry about my own salvation, but you think that I am on the road to hell because I reject your antipopes. I definitely do NOT worry about anything you have to say.
If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?
Anyone who dies outside of the Church is definitely in hell. If a baptized person showed no outward signs of repentance from heresy or schism, then it is a moral certainty that they are in hell.
To my knowledge, I haven't had a non-Catholic relative die yet, but I wouldn't hate one if they did, I would be more disappointed that they threw away the graces that God gave them. No one cares.
My grandfather was something else. He was a really funny guy and I loved him very much. He would laugh at all our jokes, even the lame ones. He would act surprised and say "Hokey doodle!" He drew caricatures and cartoons of most of the notable people in our town like the mayor, and all other sorts of people, including us kids. He taught me how to draw.
I never heard him swear, except on time when he said "da*nit", but I also never heard him say two words about God, outside of at family dinners when he would say "God is great, god is good, let us thank him for this food." Grandma is Anglican, and goes to 'church' regularly, but I never really knew Grandpa's stance.
Anyway, my Novus Ordo mother tried to get them to convert to 'Catholicism' (or what she thought was Catholicism) before he died. She brought a bunch of literature from what I understand, talking about the Early Church, but they wanted none of it. My uncle Brian got very angry about it (he is an atheist- he once said "Grandma is god") and my Uncle Michael never has any kind words for her, that I remember. I have broken all ties with the lot of them; they are evil to the core, and they love every bit of it.
There are appropriate contexts for every verse of Scripture I'm sure.
St. Luke 14:26: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
My Grandfather is in hell. This is a moral certainty. He raised a family of apostates to love the world more than God, and paved the way to hell for most of them. I hate him. He is now blaspheming God and he will do so again and again for all eternity. I hate him, I hate him, I HATE him.
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While it is true that if he was baptized you cannot know for sure if he dies outside the Church or not, since he may have died with perfect contrition, but if he were unbaptized, you know he is outside of the Church.
We still don't know that. For all anyone knows he may have been baptised secretly. And there is also that BOD business!
If it were that easy to identify people who have gone to Hell, don't you think the Church would name some?
Anyone who dies outside of the Church is definitely in hell. If a baptized person showed no outward signs of repentance from heresy or schism, then it is a moral certainty that they are in hell.
We do not have the knowledge that they have not repented.
My Grandfather is in hell. This is a moral certainty. He raised a family of apostates to love the world more than God, and paved the way to hell for most of them. I hate him. He is now blaspheming God and he will do so again and again for all eternity. I hate him, I hate him, I HATE him.
You do not know that. And the Church herself is not so bold to say that about anyone whose chances of getting to Heaven seem slim to us. So how can you be?
I'll pray for your granddad if you won't.
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CM,
It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to know about the eternal state of ANYONE - sans private revelation from God.
GO - Take a VERY LONG hike in the most beautiful country in your area. Breathe DEEPLY, ENJOY the beauty God has placed all around us.
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While you are out, I will see if I can induce your neighbor to throw a brick through your computer monitor and drive his car back and forth over the computer itself several times. :cheers:
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Catholic Martyr,
Try approaching a trad priest and asking if he would be willing to offer Mass for your granddad who you believe died outside the Church.
I doubt any priest would say that there's no point, because he's in Hell.
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Also, I didn't realize you were a lady.
I'm not.
:laugh2:
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CM, I'll bet that even Bishop Sanborn will disagree with you on this one.
Apart from a direct revelation from God, none of us -- not one -- knows with moral certainty that any particular person is in hell.
All that we know with moral certainty -- the certainty of Faith -- is that hell is real and unrepentant sinners go there.
I wonder if Fr. Feeney himself actually believed that he could say with moral certainty that this or that person was in hell.
I've been thinking about this question in the context of the media coverage of "Neda", the young Iranian woman whose death by gunshot to the heart was captured on video. Was "Neda" a Catholic? Was she in a state of grace when she died? How can we know? What about those people filmed there with "Neda" in her dying moments, looking directly into her eyes, how can they know?
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While you are out, I will see if I can induce your neighbor to throw a brick through your computer monitor and drive his car back and forth over the computer itself several times. :cheers:
:roll-laugh2:
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I saw an interview on CNN about "Neda", and people were all saying "She's a martyr! She went straight to Heaven!", but it is not so. She is likely in Hell, she supported the liberal Mousavvi, was a Mohammedan, and probably died in mortal sin.
CatholicMartyr...um, I think I know your problem now. Hate is unhealthy (I know this sounds like something a Novus Ordo-ite would say). It clouds the mind. I try to stay detached from any emotion at all.
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If you see a person walking towards a building wearing a red shirt, and then you see him about to enter, his hand on the door and showing no signs of stopping, but you turn around and leave a split second before he would pass through the doorway, then it's a moral certainty that he went in wearing a red shirt. That's not to say that he didn't stop, take a blue shirt out of his backpack and replace the red shirt with it, but all outward signs that you have seen showed this guy to have entered the building wearing a red shirt.
My grandfather raised a family of apostates, and showed no outward signs of repentance or conversion. It is a moral certainty that he is in hell, and if anyone still wants to argue with me on this, you better look up "moral certainty" before doing so.
That's not to say that it's impossible God saved him, for His mercy is great, but it would certainly call into question His justice. It would be folly to undermine either one of these perfect Divine Attributes.
1 St. Peter 4:18 "And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
St. Matthew 7:13: "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat."
Some people don't seem to understand or accept that we are bound to believe as the Faith requires us to believe. We must believe according to the harmonious relationship of Sacred Scripture and Tradition, so of course I believe my grandfather is in hell.
CatholicMartyr...um, I think I know your problem now. Hate is unhealthy (I know this sounds like something a Novus Ordo-ite would say). It clouds the mind. I try to stay detached from any emotion at all.
Young man, your statement implies that I have a problem. Surely everyone else on this board thinks so, because I reject the heresy BoD even as logic and Church teachings dictate I must. You also reject BoD as heresy, and I often wonder why you are not more vocal about it, especially when your voice could lend support to defending the Truth in the various threads which touch on the topic.
As for hate being unhealthy... Is it unhealthy to hate sin? Is it unhealthy to hate devils? Is it unhealthy to hate one's own sinful actions? Is it unhealthy to hate Judas Iscariot?
I do not hate any person on this forum. I love each and every one for the sake of God, who created the nature of each one, but who hates their sins (and mine). This love is commanded by God and often repeated in Scripture."
Why then, does the Lord say "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."?
Doesn't this contradict the command to love our neighbour as ourselves? No. It is because we must hate evil. When someone dies and goes to hell, there is no good in them at all, they are evil through and through, being punished by God with privation of any and all good. We of course are bound to hate the souls in hell.
Psalms 96:10: "You that love the Lord, hate evil,"
No DeMaistre. My problem is not hate, and you should agree now that I have explained the valid Catholic perspective of my just hatred of evil, and the fact that we are commanded in Scripture to have such hate. My problem is the same as everyone else's; fallen human nature and the fact that I am despicable in the sight of God for my countless sins against him, which, although repented, still give me great shame and fear and trembling.
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Most of my relatives are with in the novus ordo.
1.) I can not judge whether they are in hell or not.
2.) I hate the devil who is in hell and the sins and temptation he causes.
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That's not to say that it's impossible God saved him, for His mercy is great, but it would certainly call into question His justice. It would be folly to undermine either one of these perfect Divine Attributes.
Are you going to go so far as to second guess God Himself?
This is the whole point: the moment of judgment is between Our Lord Jesus Christ and the individual soul. You are not privy to that discussion.
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I'm not second guessing God at all. I am assenting to His Truth, and judging according to justice.
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Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?
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I kind of agree with Catholic Martyr here, not with his hate, but that there are certain ways we know that certain people are most likely in hell.
We don't KNOW know. But it's not "judging" to say that someone who is an atheist, for instance, is already condemned because as Jesus says "He who doesn't believe is already condemned."
If he thinks baptism of desire is a heresy then he is right to say that I am on the road to hell according to his dogmas, just as I think he is on the road to hell through his schism ( refusal of communion with other Catholics ).
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DeMaistre, is it true that you think BoD is a heresy?
Where do you go to church? Are you under a priest and bishop?
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CM, I think what some are sensing is that you are primarily driven by hate. Yes, we must hate sin and hate the devil but hate should not overtake love.
Michael the Archangel may slash away at the devil but after that work is done he can chill out and have a picnic with his friends in heaven and be perfectly happy. He is not bored by peace. He doesn't sit around moping going "What will I do now? My war is over, I have no more purpose!"
It is not the fight against the devil that drives him. Love drives him. That action against the devil just happened to be one thing he did. I don't think the many people out there who adopt a victorious, self-righteous pseudo-Michael the Archangel attitude understand that.
In a way I'm talking to myself as much as to you. But you also may need to work on this balance. The times we're living in are very conducive to pride and self-promotion. The hierarchy has fallen and in a way it makes each of us more important. Suddenly our voices matter. The head tends to get puffed-up.
The more I think about it, I would say you are not driven by hate so much as by confrontation. I see this in your screen-name itself. Many of the early Christians would overzealously seek martyrdom in a way that was almost like ѕυιcιdє. Did they really crave heaven and glory or were they driven by a sort of carefully-disguised defiance?
Martyrdom is a gift God grants to specific Chosen, it's not something you go out and grab for yourself. But at the beginning of my Catholic life I was obsessed with getting martyred so I know where you're coming from. It's a necessary step whereby we overcome fear of the world or what it might say to us or do with us.
I still see the Feeneyites as sadomasochistic and overly in love with battle and invective. They rend themselves and they rend each other, as shown by your denial and hatred of Fr. Feeney himself. There's a "No honor among thieves" atmosphere that reigns among you people that shows me God has made a firm decision about which side He supports on the BoD issue.
I strongly believe that if everyone flipped and came around to your way of thinking on this issue, the very next day, you would invent some other heresy and start throwing people out of your personal version of heaven left and right on that basis, because that is how you get your jollies. Forgive me if I'm being unjust but this is how I see the Michael Dimonds of the world. These people revel in calling others heretics; even in pictures of them, their heads tilted back, arms folded across their chests like Mussolini, you can see their absurd demonic pride. Is there one person on Earth besides themselves that they DON'T think are heretical?
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And is that a bullfight you have in your icon?
I rest my case.
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Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?
I think it is very likely that Nero is in hell, but I do not know that he is in hell.
Let me ask you a question, Mr. Catholic Martyr: why is it so important for you to know that certain individual people are in hell?
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D***it, Raoul76, sometimes you are very wise.
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Let me ask you something Mr. Prodinoscopus: Do you believe Nero is in hell?
I think it is very likely that Nero is in hell, but I do not know that he is in hell.
Let me ask you a question, Mr. Catholic Martyr: why is it so important for you to know that certain individual people are in hell?
You changed the word 'believe' into 'know', thus changing the whole discussion, and trying to put words in my mouth. No, sir I never said anyone knows that anyone else is in hell, nor must they. But it is foolishly imprudent to believe contrary to the tenets of the Faith and hope for anything contrary to the same tenets.
And is that a bullfight you have in your icon?
I rest my case.
That's a lion looking at a group of delicious Christians.
You rest your case? You have no case, just more psychobabble. You believe a heresy, BoD, because so many men tell you to and so you attack me, yes indeed unjustly.
Unlike a certain someone I know (not from this forum), I do not want to be nor do I think myself the only Catholic in the world.
I find it telling that you would recognize the unjust nature of your comment and fling it nonetheless.
By the way, I hate invective. I find it counterproductive and I think you'll be hard pressed to quote me using it. There is a big difference between invective and calling heresy heresy, and asserting that it's willful believers go to hell. Caminus uses invective, with no backup other than his opinions. I assert the Truth and I present the authoritative teachings from whence It is extracted.
And for the record, I'm not driven by hate. Hatred of sin is only one of many factors motivating me, in addition to contrition, or attrition, maybe, I don't really know which. I don't think we can know.
Anyway, if ad hominem will make you feel better and draw people away from the fact that Baptism of Desire is truly untenable in Catholic Theology, then I certainly understand why you and others continually use it.
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Sorry about the bullfight accusation.
I believe in BoD and BoB because the CATHOLIC CHURCH tells me to, not just "some men." There has to be some order here. Just because the last five Popes are apostates doesn't mean we are freed to suddenly rifle through Church history throwing out whomever we choose. The sedevacantist crisis is not an excuse to go on a power-trip. You start off against BoD and then to defend this you make Benedict XV an anti-Pope. Then you realized that Bellarmine supported BoD so you say he is a heretic. You graciously consent that Aquinas was not a heretic because he suggested a belief in BoD before your arbitrary definition of when some Pope defined the necessity of water baptism using the word "or" in a way that only you understand. What's next, you want to take Augustine out of the Church because Protestants used his arguments as a basis for their theory of salvation by faith alone and human lack of free will? When does it end when someone sets themselves up as the judge and jury without submitting to the hierarchy ( which is now the sedevacantist priesthood )? The answer is never.
You are acting like a force of destruction, not unity, don't you see that? On my side there is Bishop Dolan and Bishop Pivarunas and their priests in America, numerous traditional priests, numerous French and Polish sedevacantist priests, as well as the Siri-ites and sedeprivationists. On your side... Michael and Peter Dimond ( and those aren't even their real names, nor, from what I understand, are they real monks ). Granted, one side is not correct because it has greater numbers. Vatican II has the greatest numbers of all. But I believe in the Catholicity of the men that I've cited and they all have a coherent policy of picking up where Pius XII -- by no means an anti-Pope and a hugely underrated Vicar of Christ who correctly assessed the evil on both sides of World War II -- left off. I disagree with these men on certain aspects of history and politics but am in complete union with them on the faith.
Do you expect me not to pick a side? Especially when your side leads to home-aloner mania? Please tell me, who in the world besides yourself do you think is Catholic? I want to know.
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DeMaistre, is it true that you think BoD is a heresy?
Yes.
Where do you go to church? Are you under a priest and bishop?
Anywhere that I "go to church" is against my will, I do it only out of respect for my parents.
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I believe in BoD and BoB because the CATHOLIC CHURCH tells me to, not just "some men."
Wrong. The Catholic Church only tells you what She has declared by God the Holy Ghost. Fallible men, saints or not, can make mistakes, but you lump them and all the clergy together as though THEY are the Catholic Church's teaching authority. No. The Solemn Magisterium is the end of the line, top of the mountain, cream of the crop and final interpretation of Scripture and Tradition. You break Divine Law and become a heretic if you say about any of the decrees in this Magisterium that they either do not apply, or deny them by saying that they can be understood in ways that contradict other infallible decrees.
There has to be some order here. Just because the last five Popes are apostates doesn't mean we are freed to suddenly rifle through Church history throwing out whomever we choose. The sedevacantist crisis is not an excuse to go on a power-trip.
I am not on a power trip at all. I know what the Truth is, that all God's words are true and must be believed and obeyed, and I am standing up for it.
You start off against BoD and then to defend this you make Benedict XV an anti-Pope.
Another straw man. I reject Benedict XV because he mixes explicit statement teaching universal salvation with others that seem orthodox, among other reasons. He is a captious and heretical deceiver. His belief or non-belief in BoD is a non-issue, as is his heretical '1917 Code', which he only approved in forma communi anyway (so that could not make him a heretic, just a lazy pope who allowed the promulgation of sinful and heretical disciplinary laws, without teaching heretical doctrine). But he was a heretic on other accounts (universal salvation, Christianity existing outside the Catholic Church, etc.) and thus an antipope.
...You graciously consent that Aquinas was not a heretic because he suggested a belief in BoD before your arbitrary definition of when some Pope defined the necessity of water baptism using the word "or" in a way that only you understand.
Here you are misrepresenting my position again. You are either dishonest or too lazy to refute my actual position.
You accuse me of arbitrarily 'defining' when 'some pope' defined the necessity of water baptism. I did nothing of the sort. And it has nothing to do with the word 'or' in Trent, nor my understanding of it.
Pope Pope ClementV, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "Besides, one baptism which regenerates all who are baptized in Christ must be faithfully confessed by all just as 'one God and one faith' [Eph. 4:5], which celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we believe to be commonly the perfect remedy for salvation for adults as for children."
This decree states that nobody is baptized in Christ except through the one baptism celebrated in water. Someone cannot, then, be baptized in Christ by desire or blood or in any other way.
What's next, you want to take Augustine out of the Church because Protestants used his arguments as a basis for their theory of salvation by faith alone and human lack of free will? When does it end when someone sets themselves up as the judge and jury without submitting to the hierarchy ( which is now the sedevacantist priesthood )? The answer is never.
No, that is not my 'next stop'. Augustine never contradicted the Solemn Magisterium of his day, now, did he? And no, no, no, the sedevacantist clergy who believe in heresies such as BoD and NFP are not the hierarchy because they are not Catholic.
...Do you expect me not to pick a side? Especially when your side leads to home-aloner mania? Please tell me, who in the world besides yourself do you think is Catholic? I want to know.
I see. What you call "home-aloner mania" is what you are really afraid of. So if BoD is a heresy, then you have to change your lifestyle and reject those with whom you are currently associated.
And as for other Catholics, what do you want? Their names and numbers so you can harass them too?
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Where do you go to church? Are you under a priest and bishop?
Anywhere that I "go to church" is against my will, I do it only out of respect for my parents.
What!? Don't you realize that this is against the Ten Commandments? You honour your mother and father by standing up for the Truth and showing them how they are mistaken! You definitely do NOT break the 1st commandment so that you can pretend to uphold the fourth.
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Where do you go to church? Are you under a priest and bishop?
Anywhere that I "go to church" is against my will, I do it only out of respect for my parents.
What!? Don't you realize that this is against the Ten Commandments? You honour your mother and father by standing up for the Truth and showing them how they are mistaken! You definitely do NOT break the 1st commandment so that you can pretend to uphold the fourth.
What, is the kid going to hell unless he disobeys his parents? Why, because he doesn't follow your unique application of Catholic dogma?
Like the Pharisees whom our Lord condemned, you lay heavy burdens on people's backs without lifting a finger to help them.
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Now that was a ridiculous reply Prodinoscopus.
First you implicitly relegate obedience of the 1st Commandment to being a matter of convenience.
Second, you imply that it is I who place this burden upon him, when in fact it is Divine and natural Law that prohibits worship of any but the one true God.
Third you say "without lifting a finger to help him," as though there were something I could do, other than to point out his duty to resist all 'authority' that commands him to sin.
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Let me ask you a question Prodinoscopus:
If Caesar commanded you to bow to an idol... oh nevermind.
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Oh, of course, Mr. Catholic Martyr-wannabe, you are the only person on this board who would not falter under threat of death.
You make the most extreme sedevacantist look like a happy-clappy Novus Ordite. You have made of yourself a Church of one.
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Now that was a ridiculous reply Prodinoscopus.
First you implicitly relegate obedience of the 1st Commandment to being a matter of convenience.
Second, you imply that it is I who place this burden upon him, when in fact it is Divine and natural Law that prohibits worship of any but the one true God.
Third you say "without lifting a finger to help him," as though there were something I could do, other than to point out his duty to resist all 'authority' that commands him to sin.
1. Your own sense of absolute certainty notwithstanding, it is not de fide and binding on anyone else's conscience that attending a non-sede Traditionalist Mass (or even a Novus Ordo Mass) is a violation of the 1st Commandment. It is an unsettled matter of opinion.
2. Your second point still begs the same question as the first.
3. If you actually knew DeMaistre and could speak with him face-to-face, you might be able to help him in ways other than thundering your anathemas from behind an anonymous avatar on an internet discussion board. Have the wisdom to understand the limits of your medium.
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1. Your own sense of absolute certainty notwithstanding, it is not de fide and binding on anyone else's conscience that attending a non-sede Traditionalist Mass (or even a Novus Ordo Mass) is a violation of the 1st Commandment. It is an unsettled matter of opinion.
Your opinion. He said 'against his will', so obviously his conscience objects and he does not share your opinion, unless he chose his words poorly. Do you think that one may do something that one believes to be a sin and remain free from guilt?
Oh, of course, Mr. Catholic Martyr-wannabe, you are the only person on this board who would not falter under threat of death.
I never said that and you're putting words in my mouth like so many others on this board. It is transparent calumny and not very classy.
You know that it is wrong to bow before idols or any false gods, even under pain of death, how much more so attending something you believe to be false worship when your parents tell you to?
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1. Your own sense of absolute certainty notwithstanding, it is not de fide and binding on anyone else's conscience that attending a non-sede Traditionalist Mass (or even a Novus Ordo Mass) is a violation of the 1st Commandment. It is an unsettled matter of opinion.
Your opinion. He said 'against his will', so obviously his conscience objects and he does not share your opinion, unless he chose his words poorly. Do you think that one may do something that one believes to be a sin and remain free from guilt?
Oh, of course, Mr. Catholic Martyr-wannabe, you are the only person on this board who would not falter under threat of death.
I never said that and you're putting words in my mouth like so many others on this board. It is transparent calumny and not very classy.
You know that it is wrong to bow before idols or any false gods, even under pain of death, how much more so attending something you believe to be false worship when your parents tell you to?
DeMaistre's opinion on sedevacantism appears to be unsettled.
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Oh, of course, Mr. Catholic Martyr-wannabe, you are the only person on this board who would not falter under threat of death.
You make the most extreme sedevacantist look like a happy-clappy Novus Ordite. You have made of yourself a Church of one.
I'm sorry, but now, I can't stop laughing. :roll-laugh1:
:popcorn:
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I'm sorry, but now, I can't stop laughing. :roll-laugh1:
:popcorn:
Well, you know that's not really what this is all about. This is about salvation and is a rather serious matter.
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I'm sorry, but now, I can't stop laughing. :roll-laugh1:
:popcorn:
Well, you know that's not really what this is all about. This is about salvation and is a rather serious matter.
Indeed.