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Author Topic: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX  (Read 4867 times)

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Offline Comrade

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Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2025, 02:57:32 PM »
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  • No they don't.  They explain them away and there's only "little doubt" left if you're wanting to accept their explanation in the first place.  It's not even close to being convincing.
     A good example of this is a SSPX video, few years ago from Fr. McFarland, doubting how a single word like "ut" could invalidate the Rite of Ordinations.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #31 on: May 14, 2025, 03:02:13 PM »
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  • Recently, my friend asked +Fellay about getting conditionally confirmed, and +Fellay abruptly brushed him off…
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #32 on: May 14, 2025, 03:23:52 PM »
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  • A good example of this is a SSPX video, few years ago from Fr. McFarland, doubting how a single word like "ut" could invalidate the Rite of Ordinations.

    Yes, see, they always emphasize that it's just a tiny two-letter word.  Apart from not understanding how important a word that is, if it's so small and insignificant, then why did they go to the trouble of removing it?  Eh?  Does removing "so that" (=ut) "modernize" the translation so much and make it more meaningful and relevant to the faithful?  Hogwash.  So the fact that they removed such a small word actually makes it more suspicious ... if you believe, as many of us do, that wicked infiltrators are behind this crisis.

    "So that" speaks to cause and effect, and it's incredibly important.

    [Paraphrased]
    Old:  May the Holy Ghost come down upon him to (ut) make him a priest.
    New:  May the Holy Ghost come donw upon him.  Make him a priest.

    So, Pius XII wrote that the essentialy form for Orders had to invoke the Holy Ghost and express the Sacramental effect (of that invocation), namely, conferring the priesthood.

    In the new form, you invoke the Holy Ghost to come down on him.  OK.  For what?  To make him a priest or to make him a good priest or to give him the property dispositions to receive the priesthood, etc.?  Just about every Sacrament and many prayrers invoke the Holy Ghost, since He can have many effects.  While you could claim that it's implied, is that really the case or are you reading that connection into it?  Recall that the Sacramental forms must be unequivocal in their expression.

    But, apart from that ... (which IMO suffices to create positive doubt) ... how many priests are there still active who had not been "ordained" by bishops who had not been "consecrated" in the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration?  Very, very few anymore.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #33 on: May 14, 2025, 03:25:41 PM »
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  • Recently, my friend asked +Fellay about getting conditionally confirmed, and +Fellay abruptly brushed him off…

    Disgraceful.

    At that point, I would have asked him a followup question:  "Do you believe that you're an accomplice in Fr. Abbet's pederastic predations for having stationed him at a boys' school after he admitted to having assaulted boys, and then he assulted more boys there?  Should you be in jail?  Are you still here in the US just so you can avoid prosecution elsewhere?"

    I've noticed that since Voris went down ... they've been trying to scrub the content off the Internet ... Thankfully we have Wayback Machine.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20240304010635/https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/spotlight-hes-a-good-liar

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #34 on: May 14, 2025, 03:54:20 PM »
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  • So, with the charges against +Fellay ... here's my problem.

    Church Militant said it was done to protect the reputation of SSPX.

    Uhm, no ... that doesn't come close to explainig this case.  You have Fr. Abbet whom the SSPX found guilty of predations against young boys (and to which he himself admitted).  WHY WOULD YOU EVER TRANSFER HIM TO LIVING AT A BOARDING SCHOOL FOR YOUNG BOYS WITH READY ACCESS TO THE BOYS?  Nothing comes close to explain this other than the most sinister conspiracy theory.  Protect SSPX?  How does this protect SSPX?  You could have transferred Abbet anywhere to do that, since he was already out of the news.  In fact, this puts the SSPX at HUGE RISK if he acted up again and it got found out that you transferred him there.

    This raises huge alarm bells that +Fellay is part of the sodomite mafia.  The conclusion is inexcapable, as there's no other explanation for having done this ... EXCEPT possibly if +Fellay were being blackmailed and told to do this by someone who wanted to discredit the SSPX, but then you should rather accept a death sentence than subject these boys to the crimes ... unless you have no faith.

    +Fellay ... please explain.


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #35 on: May 14, 2025, 04:16:29 PM »
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  • Recently, my friend asked +Fellay about getting conditionally confirmed, and +Fellay abruptly brushed him off…
    He probably only does conditional sacraments if the docuмentation is missing. I don't know what he'd say if a NO priest asked for conditional ordination.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #36 on: May 14, 2025, 05:00:30 PM »
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  • I don't know what he'd say if a NO priest asked for conditional ordination.
    They don't do those anymore. I knew a few who converted from the Novus Ordo and even wanted it, but SSPX refused. One of them has since joined the Resistance.

    It would seem my friend's conditional baptism would be enough for +Fellay to be willing to do a conditional confirmation of him.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #37 on: May 14, 2025, 07:23:36 PM »
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  • SsPX trains NO lay priests in Denver. I heard quite a few members of St. Isidore left and go the CMRI.
    What is a NO lay priest?
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #38 on: May 14, 2025, 07:29:35 PM »
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  • Yes, Pope Leo XIII made this very clear in Apostolicae Curae.
    So it's not the intention of the minister (which is by its nature internal) ... and which is presumed if the Catholic Rite is used ... but the intention of the Rite that's in question.  If the Rite is changed with the "manifest intention ... of rejecting what the Church does", then this invalidates the intention of the Rite, regardless of what the minister intends in the internal forum.

    Earlier, he wrote about the intention of the Rite, i.e. the reason it was composed ... and his words could hauntingly be applied verbatim to the Conciliar Rites:
    How is this not exactly what Montini et al did?  They associated with abettors from the heterodox sects (the Prot ministers helping to write the NOM, anyone?), using the pretextt of returning to the primitive form (check!), they corrupted the Rite to "suit the errors of the reformers" (again check!)  No only is there no clear mention of sacrifice, preisthood, etc. ... but every trace of these things which had been in the Catholic Rite was deliberately removed and struck out.  These words of Leo XIII are prophetic and could have been applied verbatim to the NOM.


    So not only did changes they tried to introduce later not rescue the Rite, since it was vitiated in its Origins (due to the initial intention of removing Catholic elements to appease the heretical sects), but Leo XIII absolutely and expliciltly rejects the argument (first bolded section above) that it CAN BE UNDERSTOOD AND INTERPRETED IN A SOUND AND ORTHODOX SENSE.  In other words, it's ambiguous and CAN be understood in a Catholic sense ... the very position of SSPX, where then with the proper "internal" intention that nobody, not even the Church, can even know about, it could be rendered invalid.

    So in the context of this Rite that was intended to reject the clear sense of the Catholic Church regarding the Rite (second bolded section), any argument that this or that section COULD suffice to legitimately express the Catholic meaning is rejected due to the overall context of the Rite.

    So, the Rite, the reason it was composed, where Catholic elements were removed, etc. rendered the intention of the Rite invalid and not salvageable by someone who would impose some Catholic interpretation onto some ambiguous element within it.  That overall context vitiates any ambiguous sections that could be Catholicized by the right intention.

    You'd think the SSPXers had never read Apostolicae Curae, one of the most comprehensive explanations of Catholic theology available regarding the validity of Rites and stamped by Magisterial authority.
    Thanks for all this.

    How would you go about explaining how the new rite is included under this condemnation by Leo XIII considering it was put into practice by what the world considered to be the pope, and not some schismatics? For the sake of argument assume he was a legit pope. 
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline phillips

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #39 on: May 15, 2025, 06:11:14 AM »
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  • pope Leo Xlll gave us the prayer to St Michael

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #40 on: May 15, 2025, 10:09:30 AM »
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  • Thanks for all this.

    How would you go about explaining how the new rite is included under this condemnation by Leo XIII considering it was put into practice by what the world considered to be the pope, and not some schismatics? For the sake of argument assume he was a legit pope.

    Well, see, if he were a legitimate Pope, then I was accept that the Rite is valid because a legitimate Pope cannot produce an invalid or even doubtful Rite of Mass.  That's the Michael Davies position, and I agree with the principle, just not the assumed premise that Montini was a legit pope (at least freely exercising his papal authority).

    If Montini was a legitimate Pope, the case is closed and the NOM is valid ... and no need for conditional anything (unless a particular vernarcular language has some issues with the translation, which wouldn't necessarily be protected by the Holy Ghost).


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #41 on: May 15, 2025, 01:47:14 PM »
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  • Isn't that what the SSPX and Resistance think? Err on the side of caution that they are legit Popes, but avoid the probably valid NO because of the bad fruits?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #42 on: May 15, 2025, 01:47:52 PM »
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  • What is a NO lay priest?
    I do not considered NO priests as valid. They are essentially layman. They have the title but not much different than any of us laymen.

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #43 on: May 15, 2025, 06:31:17 PM »
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  • What is a NO lay priest?
    Novus Ordo Missae, or New Order of Mass, 1969 AD.
    N.O. for short. NO is shorter! 
    "N.O. lay priest" probably means that a specific "priest" is really only a layman. SSPX accepts the N.O. priests as valid. 
    The first part was posted by Plenus Venter on March 7, 2024; proofread by + Williamson I do recall.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/fr-calderon's-2014-study-on-the-new-rite-of-episcopal-consecration-in-english/

    "...But we also believe that there is no certainty of its validity, because it suffers from two important defects, which we could classify as one canonical and the other theological:
    - Canonical defect. From what has been said above, the institution of this new rite cannot be considered legitimate.
    - Theological defect. The novus ordo is not the same as, but only similar to, other rites accepted by the Church. Although certainly valid, these rites, on the one hand, are not very precise in their concepts; and on the other hand, the differences introduced by the novus ordo follow tendencies of bad doctrine. All this makes theological judgment, which is always difficult in these matters, even more difficult. Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, such as the validity of the episcopate, it is necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, in order to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary to count not only on the judgement of theologians, but also on the infallible judgement of the Magisterium.
    As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new Episcopal Consecrations, the one that the Society has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:
    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally assist at the Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive Communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning their exercise of the priesthood. And the remote risk that one communion or one absolution may be invalid is not so serious.
    2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent our having certainty of its validity, it seems to us - until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by New Bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the Sacraments (33).
    Father Alvaro Calderon..."
    ******
    The second Part, N.O. In the spirit of Vatican II is accepted as an extension of Modernism/Liberalism, etc. 
    I posted this last year. 



    Novus Ordo church has a damning trail of novelties, experiments, and material heresies.
    1. New Doctrine on Indulgences 1967
    2. Rite of Ordination , esp. for the priesthood  1968
    3. Tweaks of the Calendar 1969
    4. Elimination of Ember days
    5. A new mass to boot! Oh N.O. ! Essentially the Altar was replaced with a table 1969
    6. New holy Vegetable oils 1970
    7. The rite of Baptism has removed the Exorcisms  1969
    8. Priests wearing shorts, nuns wear slacks.
    9. Updated Rite of Marriage altered the ends of the Sacrament -
          not to mention the ease of getting annulments ($ 10K ) 1969
    10. Major changes in the Breviary, and when it must be prayed  1970

    11. Why not change Confirmation too? 1971
    12. Extreme Unction? Let's call it Sacrament of the Sick 1972
    13. New rite of Penance 1973
    14. Vat. II echo - Code of Canon Law 1983
    15. Canonization procedures shortened  1983
    16. Profession of Faith / Oath of Fidelity 1989
    17. Changes to the Way of the Cross, 15 Stations 1991
    18. Modernized Catechism 1992
    19. Clergy now required to don worthy ecclesiastical dress,... "according to legitimate  local customs" ?? 1993
    20. Experiment with altar Girls 1994

    21. Updated rite of Exorcism  1998
    22. Adapted Martyrology  2001
    23. Addition to Our Lady's Rosary ( 5 Luminous Mysteries !!!!!)2002
    24. World Youth Days and New Evangelization
    25. New Bible Translation, where an evil four letter word all but disappeared:  H E L L. 2002
    26. Ordinary and Extraordinary Masses  ?? 2007
    27.  Altered  the French "Our Father" 2018
    28. New "Rejoice O Virgin Mary", Introduction of profane songs / music.
    29. Iconoclastic attitude

    The real list is longer.
    *Based in part on The Catechism of the Crisis in the Church, by Fr Matthias Gaudron 2010

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