Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: SeekerOfTruth on September 04, 2014, 12:42:42 AM
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I have been studying the Traditional Catholic Faith in the past few months. I was baptized Catholic (I think) shortly after the V2 council. I attended a parochial school from K thru 8 and then a "Catholic" high school where I did learn some Catholic History including the history of antipopes. I was Confirmed (I think) in the 1980's. I became a Cafeteria Catholic in college and returned to orthodoxy and what I thought was the Catholic Church shortly after. I was always pro-life and I joined a "Catholic" young adults group as well as some "Catholic" Charismatic prayer groups in my area. I was introduced to the Latin Mass on a visit to EWTN in the late 1990's. I learned a lot more about the Catholic Faith by watching EWTN and listening to a Catholic radio station and attending lots of Catholic retreats. Unfortunately I now recognize I was getting an altered version of the True Catholic Faith. About 10 years ago I met some Traditional Catholics in my area through prolife work, but they lacked charity and I was turned off from the Latin Mass because of their fanatical and judgmental ways. I have forgiven them, and I am now starting to believe that they were just poor and weak messengers, and I decided to take another look at the Traditional Catholic groups. For years I was told that the liberal priests and nuns who are so against the prolifers were just twisting Vatican II to suit their own agendas. I recently read the V2 docuмents on the Vatican's website, and I finally saw the heresies they contain. I have also read why the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid, The Plot Against the Church, the 1936 article on the Jєωιѕн Peril from the Catholic Gazette of London, and Ratzinger's heretical writings in Principles of Catholic Theology. I know about the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPV, the CMRI, the Thuc line, the Siri Pope Gregory XVII folks, and others. I have read the writings of Father Luigi Villa and I know about Malachi Martin and Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy. I have studied the varying opinions and I am leaning towards a Sedevacantist or Sedeimpedist (sp??) position. I stopped attending the Novus Ordo Mass because I could not stand the casual worship anymore. I will not attend a diocesan Latin Mass or the FSSP, and I am still hesitant to go to the Sedevacantist chapel near me because I do not know if the priest has true apostolic succession. I am living like the Japanese Catholics or the English Recusants who did not have priests or Mass for centuries. I do this by trying to make a Spiritual Communion daily, also a Perfect Act of Contrition when I sin, and by reading Traditional Catholic writings including the writings of the Saints. I also pray the Rosary and pray to Our Lady of Good Success. I have rejected the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and all popes after Pius XII. So where do I turn for a valid Latin Mass??? I live between Tampa and Orlando.
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If you are a sedevacantist, then go to Mass at Most Holy Trinity Seminary in Brooksville Florida. I have never been to there but I know it is one of the best Mass sites in the US for Sedes.
Here is a link of the Bulletin,
http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/QAS%20Bulletin%20New.pdf
If you are worried about apostolic succession, my question is do you believe in Thuc Bishops? If you do, then you should Bishop Sanborn and any of the priests at MHT are validly ordained and have apostolic succession.
Bishop Sanborn's Episcopal Lineage is: Sanborn > Mckenna > Des Lauriers > Thuc
Des Lauriers is one of the safest lines of lineage, if not the safest.
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My in-laws live in Lakeland, Florida. When we visit, we go to a chapel in Tampa:
Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel
2404 E. Stuart St., Tampa, FL 33605
http://www.immaculateheartofmarychapel.com/
If this is the chapel you say you are hesitant to go to, I suggest you make an appointment with one of the priests and discuss your concerns. I am sure he will put your concerns to rest.
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To tdrev123,
I will give Bp Sanborn's parish a call to get their views.
Also I talked to a Traditional priest in Spring Hill which is near Brooksville. He had a British accent and he told me that because of the promise of perpetual succession that he says the pre-1955 Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop. He told me to attend a diocesan Latin Mass in Tampa. Do you know anything about him?
Both Spring Hill and Brooksville are a bit too far for me to drive but I will be interested in hearing more from the Brooksville chapel.
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To TKGS,
Thanks. I talked to the priest at the Immaculate Heart Chapel in Tampa that you mentioned. He said he is Sedevacantist but does not require me to hold that belief. However, when I talked to him, I forgot to ask him about his Apostolic succession. Do you know?
Thanks!
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth.
Welcome.
Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
You can also look into the Byzantine and Maronite parishes in your area as possible options, especially for Reconciliation, er, I mean Confession.
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About 10 years ago I met some Traditional Catholics in my area through prolife work, but they lacked charity and I was turned off from the Latin Mass because of their fanatical and judgmental ways. I have forgiven them, and I am now starting to believe that they were just poor and weak messengers, and I decided to take another look at the Traditional Catholic groups.
That seems to happen a good bit. I'm so glad you've heard His call over all the noise, and that you've found some thoughtful assistance here.
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth.
Welcome.
Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
You can also look into the Byzantine and Maronite parishes in your area as possible options, especially for Reconciliation, er, I mean Confession.
I am closer to Tampa than Orlando, but I will look into Sacred Heart.
I thought that going to an Eastern Catholic priest for confession is forbidden because of their acceptance of the V2 hierarchy. Is this true?
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth. [....]  Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
Whether one types the phrase "orlando traditional catholic", or "traditional catholic orlando", into an Internet search engine, whether it's the privacy-hostile <www.google.com>, or the privacy-conserving <ixquick.com/ (https://ixquick.com/)>, the first nonadvertising result is <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional). That's exactly the Web site you'd want to find.
The church provides a remarkably extensive slate of Masses and devotions (I've been told that the Missale Romanum is a 1948 edition). A link to its regular "SCHEDULE" is in the middle section of the menu-stripe on the Web site's main page, just below the name-plate. The header content below the name-plate provides not only the church's address, but also (for the directionally challenged) its latitude & longitude.
As for apostolic succession:
Pastor Louis Montelongo was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Timothy Hennebery (R.I.P. June 2012).
Asst. Pastor Jonathan Derrington was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Patrick Taylor (for whose valid succession through Bp. Thuc, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy specifically cited confirmation by Fr. Malachi Martin's highly placed sources).
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth.
Welcome.
Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
You can also look into the Byzantine and Maronite parishes in your area as possible options, especially for Reconciliation, er, I mean Confession.
I am closer to Tampa than Orlando, but I will look into Sacred Heart.
I thought that going to an Eastern Catholic priest for confession is forbidden because of their acceptance of the V2 hierarchy. Is this true?
The Uniate Particular Churches have their own valid hierarchy, with an unbroken lineage. While they may accept the NO hierarchy it is my experience that Eastern Rite priests do preach EENS more frequently and more forcefully than do many Trad clergy, SV or non-SV.
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Who the h&!! down-voted me? Either he doesn't like the long-suffering Catholic East, or is upset that some Uniates uphold the Infallible doctrine of EENS better than some Trads.
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seekeroftruth - The sspv/cspv offer masses in Florida. Click on the icon/second photo from the top in this link(http://congregationofstpiusv.net/BishopKelly.html) and view the docuмentation of Bishop Kelly's consecration. Thuc trads(illyricuмsacrum for a perfect example won't even acknowledge that these photos exist) plant seeds of doubt about his +Kelly's consecration when there are none.
And, if you have not read the sacred and the profane by +Kelly, do read it - http://congregationofstpiusv.net/
As far as Brooksville goes(Sanborn), amongst thuc trad lines, Gerhard de laurier's line(sanborn) is considered the more dubious of the lines. In this video(towards the end, but I really recommend watching it all) Fr. Jenkins talks about the de lauriers consecration(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKWkBlBgHio). I am pretty sure even arch schuckardtite(cmri) "ambrose" from this forum considered de lauriers consecration dubious.
Also, Thuc line sedes believe and teach(indirectly) that they are the new hierarchy(this was what Thuc's handlers Dr(s). Hiller and Heller wanted - to "reestablish the heirarchy"). Here is link revealing how Pivarunis indirectly vouches for this(how these thuc garage bishops have "authority") - http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Fouhy-formerly-Married-in-COMMUNION-with-CMRI-Scandal. Let's not forget to mention that this fr. fouhy speaking for pivarunis in the video left the priesthood and got married then divorced and came back to become a thuc bishop.
If you are not pleased with/sure about the sspv, that is perfectly fine(I am not entirely pleased), but I strongly recommend that you stay far away from the thuc line. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth. [....]  Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
Whether one types the phrase "orlando traditional catholic", or "traditional catholic orlando", into an Internet search engine, whether it's the privacy-hostile <www.google.com>, or the privacy-conserving <ixquick.com/ (https://ixquick.com/)>, the first nonadvertising result is <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional). That's exactly the Web site you'd want to find.
The church provides a remarkably extensive slate of Masses and devotions (I've been told that the Missale Romanum is a 1948 edition). A link to its regular "SCHEDULE" is in the middle section of the menu-stripe on the Web site's main page, just below the name-plate. The header content below the name-plate provides not only the church's address, but also (for the directionally challenged) its latitude & longitude.
As for apostolic succession:
Pastor Louis Montelongo was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Timothy Hennebery (R.I.P. June 2012).
Asst. Pastor Jonathan Derrington was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Patrick Taylor (for whose valid succession through Bp. Thuc, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy specifically cited confirmation by Fr. Malachi Martin's highly placed sources).
It is my understanding that +Taylor was a Novus Ordo presider who received conditional ordination from a valid schismatic bishop and later received consecration through the same lineage. Years later he received conditional consecration from the +Thuc and Duarte-Costa/Castillo-Mendez lines. If he carries the lines from "Bishops" Coomaraswarmy and Martin (Gaston-Lopez), then that could be a problem, especially if they are his chief lines of succession. Please enlighten me.
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Actually + NC-17 + the pictures you showed me were of Fr. Kelly and +Mendez posing for a couple of pictures. No ceremony, no timeline, no nothing.
As I stated before, SeekerofTruth can go to the Uniates as an option, especially in this crisis. At least the priests and bishops were ordained openly, publically and with all kinds of video footage and copious amounts of still photographs.
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Illyricuмsacrum - you are lying again. If you are not bright enough to click on the link(therefore remaining on the main page), then you would not have even seen a "couple of pictures". There is only one picture of +Kelly and +Mendez on the main page. Despite all of that, you still have yet to admit the "existence of these photos" and all of the immaculate docuмentation provided.
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seekeroftruth - if you take a look at illyricuмsacrum's recent posts, you will see how they are wolves in sheep's clothing. He is indirectly positing that +Kelly's consecration was as they like to say "top secret"/"private" and even foolishly "not docuмented" to give you the idea that +Kelly's was no different than the Thuc consecrations. Read the sacred and the profane, and you will see there is an enormous difference. There are numerous still photographs of +Kellys consecration showing all that is required of a consecration outside of the norms of the church. The docuмentation accompanying the photos is flawless.
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Let's stay on target, and that's helping Seeker out. Not airing out some CI members obsessions.
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To tdrev123,
I will give Bp Sanborn's parish a call to get their views.
Also I talked to a Traditional priest in Spring Hill which is near Brooksville. He had a British accent and he told me that because of the promise of perpetual succession that he says the pre-1955 Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop. He told me to attend a diocesan Latin Mass in Tampa. Do you know anything about him?
Both Spring Hill and Brooksville are a bit too far for me to drive but I will be interested in hearing more from the Brooksville chapel.
That is really strange, I have never heard of any priest saying saying a pre- 1955 mass and being in union with 'Pope' Francis - did he mean that he says their name in the canon, or that he is actually affiliated with the diocese?
So you have gotten lots of opinions from people on here, to decide what mass is best/or you consider valid, you need to determine if you believe that masses with the 'Francis' in canon makes it a valid mass...if you think its okay, then you could go to an Eastern Right, although you need to do research into the church, some eastern rites have been 'novus ordoized' especially the Maronite Church -
Then there is the topic of SSPV, I'm not sure what type of mass center they have there but you need to determine if you think Bp Kelly was validly ordained - I believe it was valid, although if you go to mass there, you can't go to mass anywhere else, and they are very close to being heretics on their position of EENS (I'm not going to get into that though), and also they might be heretics for denying communion to Catholics who go to Thuc bishops or to "Followers of Leonard Feeney" (there words not mine)...
If you are a firm sedevacantist, as I am, do research into Thuc Bishops, do research into Bishop Kelly's Consecration, research una cuм masses...but always do research unbiased and try to seek the truth (as your name suggests)
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Let's stay on target, and that's helping Seeker out. Not airing out some CI members obsessions.
I'd like to stay on target. I have heard there is a book out there that goes through all the positions of each Traditionalist Catholic group. Does anybody know the name of the book and the author? I was told it was written by a Sedevacantist. My SSPX friend actually recommended it to me, and I wrote it down but cannot find it now. I guess I can email him and ask him again. Does anybody know what I am referring to?
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seekeroftruth - perhaps you know of all of these groups, but do you know why there are all of these groups? Do you know that malachi martin was a marrano jew being paid under the table by a chief rabbi of new york to influence V2 and the traditional movement(BTW martin is still popular amongst una cuм resisters)?
If you are already prepared to receive sacraments without knowing the reasons that drive the trad world enough to definitively choose, then perhaps you do belong at brooksville. The twin gods comfort and convenience eagerly await thee there.
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Seekeroftruth - the video link to Fr. Jenkins that I posted covers all of the the traditional controversies. If you know the doctrinal positions of all of the trad groups, then you will know who Fr. Jenkins is referring to when he speaks of the doctrines.
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seekeroftruth - perhaps you know of all of these groups, but do you know why there are all of these groups? Do you know that malachi martin was a marrano jew being paid under the table by a chief rabbi of new york to influence V2 and the traditional movement(BTW martin is still popular amongst una cuм resisters)?
If you are already prepared to receive sacraments without knowing the reasons that drive the trad world enough to definitively choose, then perhaps you do belong at brooksville. The twin gods comfort and convenience eagerly await thee there.
I have heard that of Malachi Martin, but I have not read that much.
Why did the Von Hildebrands and Father Villa and Padre Pio stay in the Novus Ordo? Does anybody know the answer to that? I cannot find anyone who can answer that question.
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Seekeroftruth - the video link to Fr. Jenkins that I posted covers all of the the traditional controversies. If you know the doctrinal positions of all of the trad groups, then you will know who Fr. Jenkins is referring to when he speaks of the doctrines.
Thanks for the Jenkins referral.
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seekeroftruth - perhaps you know of all of these groups, but do you know why there are all of these groups? Do you know that malachi martin was a marrano jew being paid under the table by a chief rabbi of new york to influence V2 and the traditional movement(BTW martin is still popular amongst una cuм resisters)?
If you are already prepared to receive sacraments without knowing the reasons that drive the trad world enough to definitively choose, then perhaps you do belong at brooksville. The twin gods comfort and convenience eagerly await thee there.
Seeker,
You mentioned something about uncharitable traditionalists in your original post...
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seekeroftruth - padre pio is interesting case, but easy to understand. First, he died in 1968. News(not rumor) didn't travel as fast back then as it does today, and the new mass and other changes to the sacraments that would set off alarm bells were not even a factor/in effect yet. Second, he requested and received permission to be exempt from the liturgical changes that were occurring(permission = major factor). Third, he was an old dying stigmatized burdened religious priest. Lastly, Padre Pio is not infallible.
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Also, Thuc line sedes believe and teach...
You're making stuff up again.
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seekeroftruth - here is the file that docuмents malachi martin. Martin is "the bloody knife".
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-file-on-malachi-martin.html
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tkgs - don't mis quote me. I posted that they believe and teach these things "indirectly". View the link. Schuckardites(cmri) like to advertise themselves as being no different from other trad groups who claim no authority, but all you have to do is listen to fr. Fouhy's "obey bishops" speech in front of pivarunis after he himself refuses to answer the "pope authority" question. Pivarunis and thucs believe they are the new heirarchy, and if things in Rome worsen, they will perform for us a repeat of "thuc traditions act 1" - palmar de troya.
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tkgs - don't mis quote me. I posted that they believe and teach these things "indirectly". View the link. Schuckardites(cmri) like to advertise themselves as being no different from other trad groups who claim no authority, but all you have to do is listen to fr. Fouhy's "obey bishops" speech in front of pivarunis after he himself refuses to answer the "pope authority" question. Pivarunis and thucs believe they are the new heirarchy, and if things in Rome worsen, they will perform for us a repeat of "thuc traditions act 1" - palmar de troya.
Your just making up stuff now...
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Other than the usual mudslinging that this type of question always seems to raise I would ask you to analyze the theological position of our original poster:
1) Won't go to Novus Ordo
2) Won't go to Thuc sedevacantist Masses because:
a) too far
b) "possibly" invalid (note the Trads fighting each other in this thread after this suggestion is made)
3) Won't go to the FSSP
4) Won't go to the Indult / Motu Mass by a diocesan priest in St. Petersburg
5) Has questions about everybody's orders
6) Wants info on all independents in area but only telephones them never meets them in person... (antennas beginning to rise ?)
I ask:
1) What else is left ?
2) What is the real agenda ?
3) Troll alert ?
BTW (from personal experience) the questioner lives in St. Petersburg so we have a problem with the location given.... (HINT: St. Pete is not between Orlando and Tampa)
What else can I say ?
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Lemme add a couple more...
7) won't go to the ECC, even for confession
8) + pg-13 + suddenly appears
9) op warms to + pg +
What else can I say ?[/quote]
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I'm wondering with all of this if Trad Catholic communities are still being monitored by the Roman hierarchs as they used to do in the 70s or if they have sufficiently learnt to talk like Trads just enough to pass themselves off as them.
In our chapel we have a number of clearly Novus Ordo people "pew stuffing" (I call it) who don't know beans about the issues but they wear the long dresses and plunging necklines (the giveaway in more senses than 1).
Have we been too busy fighting each other over Kelly, Dolan, Pivarunas, Sanborn, Williamson, Pfeiffer and Fellay to not notice that the infiltrators are right there desperately hoping we won't see them for the NOM frauds they totally are. Fellay can't speak to admirers without the admirers being bussed in from somewhere. I wonder if this is becoming a universal phenomenon: "THe Enemy Within" ?
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SeekerofTruth: The book you may have heard of is "The Resurrection of the Catholic Church," by Griff Ruby. I found it both fair and informative on the trad movement. Here's a link:
null (http://www.the-pope.com/preface0.html)
And, +PG+, the good Bishop's name is Pivarunas. Thank you.
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SeekerofTruth: The book you may have heard of is "The Resurrection of the Catholic Church," by Griff Ruby. I found it both fair and informative on the trad movement. Here's a link:
null (http://www.the-pope.com/preface0.html)
And, +PG+, the good Bishop's name is Pivarunas. Thank you.
It's full of factual errors - hardly a reliable source for dates and facts even if in "broad strokes" he does paint a picture of the Trad movement but heavily sede of course.
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SeekerofTruth: The book you may have heard of is "The Resurrection of the Catholic Church," by Griff Ruby. I found it both fair and informative on the trad movement. Here's a link:
null (http://www.the-pope.com/preface0.html)
And, +PG+, the good Bishop's name is Pivarunas. Thank you.
It's full of factual errors - hardly a reliable source for dates and facts even if in "broad strokes" he does paint a picture of the Trad movement but heavily sede of course.
But it is an excellent primer for a Trad chapel infiltrator because it paints that Trad movement in broad strokes but fills it with so much factual error that the potential infiltrator can't tune that out since they do not know the people involved in the Trad movement. Thus it is an excellent source for spotting would be Trad infiltrators a mile off ! Must recommend that for good reading to the pew stuffers in our chapel.
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About 10 years ago I met some Traditional Catholics in my area through prolife work, but they lacked charity and I was turned off from the Latin Mass because of their fanatical and judgmental ways. I have forgiven them, and I am now starting to believe that they were just poor and weak messengers, and I decided to take another look at the Traditional Catholic groups.
That seems to happen a good bit. I'm so glad you've heard His call over all the noise, and that you've found some thoughtful assistance here.
People take the firmness and insular ways of traditional Catholics as being uncharitable. The church is in crisis by the evil let in, and by weak men. If you're truly seeking the Truth and show you are genuine, people will take the time with you. Listen, learn.
Strong men and firm and direct. Too much confusion and sin is cause by ambiguity. If firmness and assertiveness bugs you, good. Let it rub off on you. We need more strong faithful men. Too many are weak, give into sin and lead others down the wrong paths.
Women and families are insular for good reason. The world is full of distractions and detractors that lead to sin.
Confession, pray rosary daily, attend mass weekly and often as possible. You will get discernment.
To be a man, is sacrifice.
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My previous link about cmri/pivarunis and their authority/obey bishops claim did not work. Here is the video link -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcDkR_sTYtQ&feature=youtu.be
If you listen starting at 3 minutes in and especially at minute 3:15, fr. Fouhy answers "yes" for Mark Pivarunis(who twice dodges answering the "authority in this crisis" question) that there is an alternative to a pope(Rome)/authority being the solution. Fr. Fouhy then goes on to say that these thuc bishops are the authority that needs to be obeyed(and pivarunis silently approves). This is known as plausible deniability(am I still making this stuff up?), and it is a standard thuc trad practice. Roots give life to the tree, and their roots are palmar de troya and old catholic/schuckardt aka pope hadrian VII. They will use words like "imperfect council", but that it is just another name for a conclave.
BTW, Fr. Fouhy was ordained in 1943. He informally left the priesthood in 1969 and got married in a civil service. His so-called wife then left him, and he began acting as a priest again. Here he is very friendly with the CMRI and mark pivarunas. He later became a Thuc bishop.
This is what you find in the thuc line. Scandal.
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This is what you find in the thuc line. Scandal.
What is your point? You talk about some video from 23 YEARS ago about something completely unrelated to this thread, you talk about the personal sin of a dead Priest who was affiliated with the CMRI.
What is your point?
Scandal? Because there are no scandals anywhere else? Are you saying that scandal makes priests invalid? What are you saying? What is your point? Why are you saying these things?
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SeekerofTruth: The book you may have heard of is "The Resurrection of the Catholic Church," by Griff Ruby. I found it both fair and informative on the trad movement. Here's a link:
null (http://www.the-pope.com/preface0.html)
And, +PG+, the good Bishop's name is Pivarunas. Thank you.
Hi Dana,
Thanks for your help. It was the Griff Ruby book that my friend mentioned. The link did not come through but I will look it up.
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth. [....]  Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
Whether one types the phrase "orlando traditional catholic", or "traditional catholic orlando", into an Internet search engine, whether it's the privacy-hostile <www.google.com>, or the privacy-conserving <ixquick.com/ (https://ixquick.com/)>, the first nonadvertising result is <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional). That's exactly the Web site you'd want to find.
The church provides a remarkably extensive slate of Masses and devotions (I've been told that the Missale Romanum is a 1948 edition). A link to its regular "SCHEDULE" is in the middle section of the menu-stripe on the Web site's main page, just below the name-plate. The header content below the name-plate provides not only the church's address, but also (for the directionally challenged) its latitude & longitude.
As for apostolic succession:
Pastor Louis Montelongo was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Timothy Hennebery (R.I.P. June 2012).
Asst. Pastor Jonathan Derrington was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Patrick Taylor (for whose valid succession through Bp. Thuc, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy specifically cited confirmation by Fr. Malachi Martin's highly placed sources).
Thanks Alligator for the info.
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth. [....]  Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
Whether one types the phrase "orlando traditional catholic", or "traditional catholic orlando", into an Internet search engine, whether it's the privacy-hostile <www.google.com>, or the privacy-conserving <ixquick.com/ (https://ixquick.com/)>, the first nonadvertising result is <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional). That's exactly the Web site you'd want to find.
The church provides a remarkably extensive slate of Masses and devotions (I've been told that the Missale Romanum is a 1948 edition). A link to its regular "SCHEDULE" is in the middle section of the menu-stripe on the Web site's main page, just below the name-plate. The header content below the name-plate provides not only the church's address, but also (for the directionally challenged) its latitude & longitude.
As for apostolic succession:
Pastor Louis Montelongo was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Timothy Hennebery (R.I.P. June 2012).
Asst. Pastor Jonathan Derrington was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Patrick Taylor (for whose valid succession through Bp. Thuc, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy specifically cited confirmation by Fr. Malachi Martin's highly placed sources).
AlligatorD,
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe, that Fr. Montelongo is connected to the independent Tampa chapel. So that clears up what I forgot to ask the sede priest from the Tampa chapel.
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I found it odd what the British Trad priest in Spring Hill told me. If I recall correctly he said he was formerly a sede but because of a teaching on perpetual succession he has since come to believe that the Seat is not vacant and that he has to offer the Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop because of this belief. And yet he is not trying to join them because there is a spiritual necessity to provide the pre-1955 Mass. Unless I misunderstood him, this is what I think he was telling me.
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Sacred Heart under + Montelongo uses the pre -'55 and accepts Francis as Pope so do many independents and even FSSP, the Institute of Christ the King (not every priest and of course they won't say this publicly). It's only generally in ex-SSPX circles that the pre-'55 is associated with sedevacantism.
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You seem to be ahead of the game, SeekerofTruth. [....]  Have you looked into Sacred Heart Traditional Chapel in Orlando?
Whether one types the phrase "orlando traditional catholic", or "traditional catholic orlando", into an Internet search engine, whether it's the privacy-hostile <www.google.com>, or the privacy-conserving <ixquick.com/ (https://ixquick.com/)>, the first nonadvertising result is <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional). That's exactly the Web site you'd want to find.
The church provides a remarkably extensive slate of Masses and devotions (I've been told that the Missale Romanum is a 1948 edition). A link to its regular "SCHEDULE" is in the middle section of the menu-stripe on the Web site's main page, just below the name-plate. The header content below the name-plate provides not only the church's address, but also (for the directionally challenged) its latitude & longitude.
As for apostolic succession:
Pastor Louis Montelongo was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Timothy Hennebery (R.I.P. June 2012).
Asst. Pastor Jonathan Derrington was ordained to the Catholic priesthood, according to the traditional rite, by independent Bp. Patrick Taylor (for whose valid succession through Bp. Thuc, Fr. Rama Coomaraswamy specifically cited confirmation by Fr. Malachi Martin's highly placed sources).
AlligatorD,
Correct me if I am wrong, I believe, that Fr. Montelongo is connected to the independent Tampa chapel. So that clears up what I forgot to ask the sede priest from the Tampa chapel.
A-lynching we shall go...
After verifying - I believe the Tampa chapel is no longer connected with + Montelongo because the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist and + Montelongo is not. Why don't you call + Montelongo and find out from the horse's mouth ?
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I found it odd what the British Trad priest in Spring Hill told me. If I recall correctly he said he was formerly a sede but because of a teaching on perpetual succession he has since come to believe that the Seat is not vacant and that he has to offer the Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop because of this belief. And yet he is not trying to join them because there is a spiritual necessity to provide the pre-1955 Mass. Unless I misunderstood him, this is what I think he was telling me.
Another Lynch job: why don't you call him and ask him ?
I find it "odd" that we are subjected to rumors and falsehoods.
+ Montelongo has nothing to do with Tampa and Fr. Wright doesn't have anything to do with St. Petersburg either. What game are you up to ? You keep asking for a "valid" and "Catholic" Mass but you turn down all offers and continue to question credentials.
Can't you Trads see the game this person is up to ?
Geography question for all: Where is St. Petersburg in relation to Tampa and Orlando ?
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I found it odd what the British Trad priest in Spring Hill told me. If I recall correctly he said he was formerly a sede but because of a teaching on perpetual succession he has since come to believe that the Seat is not vacant and that he has to offer the Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop because of this belief. And yet he is not trying to join them because there is a spiritual necessity to provide the pre-1955 Mass. Unless I misunderstood him, this is what I think he was telling me.
Another Lynch job: why don't you call him and ask him ?
I find it "odd" that we are subjected to rumors and falsehoods.
+ Montelongo has nothing to do with Tampa and Fr. Wright doesn't have anything to do with St. Petersburg either. What game are you up to ? You keep asking for a "valid" and "Catholic" Mass but you turn down all offers and continue to question credentials.
Can't you Trads see the game this person is up to ?
Geography question for all: Where is St. Petersburg in relation to Tampa and Orlando ?
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede. If he is no longer affiliated withTampa (he did consecrate their new church) it is because they distanced themselves from him, not the other way around. The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not). The ol' fence shaker Bergie is having quite the effect.
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I found it odd what the British Trad priest in Spring Hill told me. If I recall correctly he said he was formerly a sede but because of a teaching on perpetual succession he has since come to believe that the Seat is not vacant and that he has to offer the Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop because of this belief. And yet he is not trying to join them because there is a spiritual necessity to provide the pre-1955 Mass. Unless I misunderstood him, this is what I think he was telling me.
Another Lynch job: why don't you call him and ask him ?
I find it "odd" that we are subjected to rumors and falsehoods.
+ Montelongo has nothing to do with Tampa and Fr. Wright doesn't have anything to do with St. Petersburg either. What game are you up to ? You keep asking for a "valid" and "Catholic" Mass but you turn down all offers and continue to question credentials.
Can't you Trads see the game this person is up to ?
Geography question for all: Where is St. Petersburg in relation to Tampa and Orlando ?
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede. If he is no longer affiliated withTampa (he did consecrate their new church) it is because they distanced themselves from him, not the other way around. The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not). The ol' fence shaker Bergie is having quite the effect.
You are absolutely correct !
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I found it odd what the British Trad priest in Spring Hill told me. If I recall correctly he said he was formerly a sede but because of a teaching on perpetual succession he has since come to believe that the Seat is not vacant and that he has to offer the Mass in union with Francis and the local bishop because of this belief. And yet he is not trying to join them because there is a spiritual necessity to provide the pre-1955 Mass. Unless I misunderstood him, this is what I think he was telling me.
Another Lynch job: why don't you call him and ask him ?
I find it "odd" that we are subjected to rumors and falsehoods.
+ Montelongo has nothing to do with Tampa and Fr. Wright doesn't have anything to do with St. Petersburg either. What game are you up to ? You keep asking for a "valid" and "Catholic" Mass but you turn down all offers and continue to question credentials.
Can't you Trads see the game this person is up to ?
Geography question for all: Where is St. Petersburg in relation to Tampa and Orlando ?
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede. If he is no longer affiliated withTampa (he did consecrate their new church) it is because they distanced themselves from him, not the other way around. The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not). The ol' fence shaker Bergie is having quite the effect.
You are absolutely correct !
Just wanted to add - for what its worth - that even our friends the Dimonds say +Montelongo and his affiliated priests are a safe bet for Holy Mass and the Sacraments.
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For anyone who is interested in more information about the Church in Tampa send me a PM.
There is a good chance that I know Fr. Emilio Fattore better then anyone on CI.
Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando.
This link is his facebook page, so it is public information.
https://www.facebook.com/frlouismontelongo
Just watch out for that the female "Troll" from St. Pete doesn't get in there and start a misinformation campaign along the lines we have already seen for other priests and chapels.
Fr. Fattore needs to know that the modernist diocese is actively gunning for Trads of all shades as per the orders of the modernist local Lynch man. It's been on his mind for at least 8 years and it galls him no end and with 2 or less years left in the job he has made it his priority to obliterate whatever he can before he goes. I can assure you this is entirely true and I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth !
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Sacred Heart under +Montelongo uses the pre-'55 and accepts Francis as Pope [....]
Anyone who actually reads <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional) will see the 3 points that was the only text whose presentation verbatim was insisted on by Montelongo as pastor:
• Respectfully independent of the Diocese of Orlando.
• Roman Catholic in faith, morals, and practice.
• Recognizing the sovereignity of His Holiness Pope Francis.
[...] I believe, that Fr. Montelongo is connected to the independent Tampa chapel. So that clears up what I forgot to ask the sede priest from the Tampa chapel.
After verifying - I believe the Tampa chapel is no longer connected with +Montelongo because the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist and +Montelongo is not. Why don't you call +Montelongo and find out from the horse's mouth ?
"Verifying"? Really? The description of Montelongo as "connected to the independent Tampa chapel" is a stronger statement than what's justified by available information. He has his--as its pastor--independent Orlando church to worry about. He also celebrates a monthly Mass for a really small group of traditional Catholics in North Florida. It's my impression that despite a clear difference on the issue of papal recognition, Montelongo does provide the Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel with ecclesiastical guidance and assistance--upon its clergy's requests. He makes no secret of that at the Orlando church.
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede.
I concur; that's also my clear impression.
The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not).
I'd assumed that the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist because that's what appears to be the official position of the Sociedad Religiosa San Luis Rey de Francia (SRSLRF[?], i.e.: Religious Society of King St. Louis [IX] of France) with whom the resident clergy of Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel are either merely affiliated, or are actual members (I claim no special knowledge of that chapel, nor have I ever set foot in it, but that's what I tentatively concluded from my surfing of the Web--which in this instance hasn't been deep, being hindered by my inability to read Spanish).
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Sacred Heart under +Montelongo uses the pre-'55 and accepts Francis as Pope [....]
Anyone who actually reads <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional) will see the 3 points that was the only text whose presentation verbatim was insisted on by Montelongo as pastor:
• Respectfully independent of the Diocese of Orlando.
• Roman Catholic in faith, morals, and practice.
• Recognizing the sovereignity of His Holiness Pope Francis.
[...] I believe, that Fr. Montelongo is connected to the independent Tampa chapel. So that clears up what I forgot to ask the sede priest from the Tampa chapel.
After verifying - I believe the Tampa chapel is no longer connected with +Montelongo because the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist and +Montelongo is not. Why don't you call +Montelongo and find out from the horse's mouth ?
"Verifying"? Really? The description of Montelongo as "connected to the independent Tampa chapel" is a stronger statement than what's justified by available information. He has his--as its pastor--independent Orlando church to worry about. He also celebrates a monthly Mass for a really small group of traditional Catholics in North Florida. It's my impression that despite a clear difference on the issue of papal recognition, Montelongo does provide the Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel with ecclesiastical guidance and assistance--upon its clergy's requests. He makes no secret of that at the Orlando church.
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede.
I concur; that's also my clear impression.
The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not).
I'd assumed that the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist because that's what appears to be the official position of the Sociedad Religiosa San Luis Rey de Francia (SRSLRF[?], i.e.: Religious Society of King St. Louis [IX] of France) with whom the resident clergy of Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel are either merely affiliated, or are actual members (I claim no special knowledge of that chapel, nor have I ever set foot in it, but that's what I tentatively concluded from my surfing of the Web--which in this instance hasn't been deep, being hindered by my inability to read Spanish).
I know the situation personally. Tampa asked + Montelongo to consecrate their church. He did. Almost immediately afterwards the connection was severed because the Tampa chapel is sede.
+ Montelongo has been in Orlando since about 1999. The chapel holds no official position as far as membership is concerned on the papacy. They hold an occupant. they don't push it nor do they push sedevacantists away.
That's all there is to it.
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Sacred Heart under +Montelongo uses the pre-'55 and accepts Francis as Pope [....]
Anyone who actually reads <orlando-sacred-heart.org (http://orlando-sacred-heart.org/)> (the customary "www." being optional) will see the 3 points that was the only text whose presentation verbatim was insisted on by Montelongo as pastor:
• Respectfully independent of the Diocese of Orlando.
• Roman Catholic in faith, morals, and practice.
• Recognizing the sovereignity of His Holiness Pope Francis.
[...] I believe, that Fr. Montelongo is connected to the independent Tampa chapel. So that clears up what I forgot to ask the sede priest from the Tampa chapel.
After verifying - I believe the Tampa chapel is no longer connected with +Montelongo because the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist and +Montelongo is not. Why don't you call +Montelongo and find out from the horse's mouth ?
"Verifying"? Really? The description of Montelongo as "connected to the independent Tampa chapel" is a stronger statement than what's justified by available information. He has his--as its pastor--independent Orlando church to worry about. He also celebrates a monthly Mass for a really small group of traditional Catholics in North Florida. It's my impression that despite a clear difference on the issue of papal recognition, Montelongo does provide the Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel with ecclesiastical guidance and assistance--upon its clergy's requests. He makes no secret of that at the Orlando church.
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede.
I concur; that's also my clear impression.
The Tampa folks were never openly sede until recently (many of their parishioners are not).
I'd assumed that the Tampa chapel is sedevacantist because that's what appears to be the official position of the Sociedad Religiosa San Luis Rey de Francia (SRSLRF[?], i.e.: Religious Society of King St. Louis [IX] of France) with whom the resident clergy of Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel are either merely affiliated, or are actual members (I claim no special knowledge of that chapel, nor have I ever set foot in it, but that's what I tentatively concluded from my surfing of the Web--which in this instance hasn't been deep, being hindered by my inability to read Spanish).
I know the situation personally. Tampa asked + Montelongo to consecrate their church. He did. Almost immediately afterwards the connection was severed because the Tampa chapel is sede.
+ Montelongo has been in Orlando since about 1999. The chapel holds no official position as far as membership is concerned on the papacy. They hold an occupant. they don't push it nor do they push sedevacantists away.
That's all there is to it.
Good summary.
Also
IllyricuмSacrum (Sep 05, 2014, 8:49 pm) said:
As far as I can tell +Montelongo is not a sede, but is not anti-sede.
I concur; that's also my clear impression.
ditto. I can tell you that he IS struggling mightily with Francis.
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curioustrad and ALL members,
BTW, I am not an enemy infiltrator. And yes I do live in St. Pete. As for my statement about living between Tampa and Orlando, I probably should have said Tampa Bay area, but I wrote what I wrote specifically because I did not want to give my exact location out because I myself do not trust the Modernists that might be on this site. There are at least 2 people that I know from the NO circles I run in, that I think might just be troublemakers who are trying to undermine my search for answers with all sorts of veiled threats and silly responses to evidence that I present. Before I joined this site I also read posts by some posters who are suspicious of other posters being NO spies and NO troublemakers. So I chose to hide my true location. But I guess the Trad spies have been discussing me since curioustrad knows so much about me from "personal experience". Or perhaps curioustrad is a NO spy.
I guess I really should not care if the Modernists/NO people know where I am from because I should not fear the enemies of God, but I should only fear God Himself.
Regarding Montelongo: On the Tampa independent chapel website there is a photo of Bishop Montelongo who was there for a Confirmation. That is why I thought he was connected to the priests of that chapel. I guess I was incorrect.
ALSO, the priest I spoke with at Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel told me that he was from Argentina and that he held the Sedevacantist position, but does not require me to hold that position. He also apologized to me for the nasty Trads I have encountered in the past who lose their tempers when someone asks a simple legitimate question. I appreciated his kindness. He also explained how frustrated many Trads are and I understand now because there are friends and family who truly do not understand my current quest.
BTW, several years ago I knew a Latin Mass person who jumped down my throat over a simple logical question. It was a Holy Day, and that person wished me a "Happy Feast Day", and I pleasantly reciprocated the sentiment and thanked that person. Then out of curiosity I asked where that person had gone to Mass that day because I knew there was no Latin Mass for Holy Days at that time. At the time I was also not aware that many Trads think of the NO Mass as invalid. I knew they preferred the Latin Mass because of its reverence but I did not know about the Abomination of Desolation teaching or any of the theological reasons behind this belief and so I was surprised that this person did not attend a Mass for this Marian Holy Day and I mentioned that I had seen other Latin Mass folks at a NO Mass that day, so I wondered why this person had not gone at least to the NO to fulfill their obligation. Well this person became so NASTY and proceeded to yell at me at the top of their lungs. I was really taken aback. Truly it was UNACCEPTABLE behavior for a Catholic. This person could have given me a calm explanation of their position instead of yelling at me. They truly missed an opportunity to inform me and evangelize me. St. Paul warned us that without LOVE we are clanging gongs and Our Lord Jesus Christ told us to LOVE OUR ENEMIES as we love ourselves. This was not LOVE and from what I am seeing on this site people would rather lynch than love.
And as for meeting a priest in person, I will do so after I gather all the information I need, and after I pray about it. I am not going to run to just any chapel when I still do not know which Trads are truly Catholic or not. Two different Trad groups have told me that there are no valid Latin Masses in my area, thus I am trying to research all the Trad positions and ask Our Lady to guide me to the right place. I am also waiting for responses from other Trads that I have contacted.
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For anyone who is interested in more information about the Church in Tampa send me a PM.
There is a good chance that I know Fr. Emilio Fattore better then anyone on CI.
Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando.
This link is his facebook page, so it is public information.
https://www.facebook.com/frlouismontelongo
Just watch out for that the female "Troll" from St. Pete doesn't get in there and start a misinformation campaign along the lines we have already seen for other priests and chapels.
Fr. Fattore needs to know that the modernist diocese is actively gunning for Trads of all shades as per the orders of the modernist local Lynch man. It's been on his mind for at least 8 years and it galls him no end and with 2 or less years left in the job he has made it his priority to obliterate whatever he can before he goes. I can assure you this is entirely true and I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth !
ANYONE NOTICE THAT curioustrad is privy to Bishop Lynch's conversations that discuss "gunning for Trads of all shades" in the Tampa area??? curioustrad clearly says "I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth"
I would not trust a person who has that kind of access to Bp. Lynch. I doubt that Lynch would ever reveal that information to someone he does not trust.
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For anyone who is interested in more information about the Church in Tampa send me a PM.
There is a good chance that I know Fr. Emilio Fattore better then anyone on CI.
Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando.
This link is his facebook page, so it is public information.
https://www.facebook.com/frlouismontelongo
Just watch out for that the female "Troll" from St. Pete doesn't get in there and start a misinformation campaign along the lines we have already seen for other priests and chapels.
Fr. Fattore needs to know that the modernist diocese is actively gunning for Trads of all shades as per the orders of the modernist local Lynch man. It's been on his mind for at least 8 years and it galls him no end and with 2 or less years left in the job he has made it his priority to obliterate whatever he can before he goes. I can assure you this is entirely true and I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth !
ANYONE NOTICE THAT curioustrad is privy to Bishop Lynch's conversations that discuss "gunning for Trads of all shades" in the Tampa area??? curioustrad clearly says "I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth"
I would not trust a person who has that kind of access to Bp. Lynch. I doubt that Lynch would ever reveal that information to someone he does not trust.
Thanks for the admission that the original statement was a falsehood. I can understand the desire to preserve anonymity, however, you were under no obligation to say where you lived at all. In Trad Catholic theology we are never permitted to tell a falsehood for any reason whatsoever, but Novus Ordo theology uses "the lesser of two evils theory" all the time. For me that's a bad sign already.
As for me being the Novus Ordo infiltrator:
1/ I didn't say I had personal access to Lynch but he used to have a radio show once accessible on the web and he has spoken and written on his blog (still accessible for all the world to read) of his utter disdain for the Trad Mass on numerous occasions.
2/ I know several priests both Novus Ordo (who said the Trad Mass) and Traditional and a few lay people who have spoken with Lynch about the Trad Mass and there he has been far more forthcoming about his disdain and intent to do what he can to stem the rise of Traditionalists in his diocese.
All I can say is that I know about what I write and I can honestly say you are off to a very bad start with falsehood and "shopping around'. In the Scriptures Jesus simply tells Nathaniel to "Come and see" i.e. go to a Mass not spread rumors and gossip about validity of priests and supposed conversations with them on the internet where WE can neither verify the truth of what you claim you heard, and THEY cannot defend themselves.
Scripture is also very clear that the enemy of Truth always works in the darkness, but we are told to "Walk in the light".
-
For anyone who is interested in more information about the Church in Tampa send me a PM.
There is a good chance that I know Fr. Emilio Fattore better then anyone on CI.
Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando.
This link is his facebook page, so it is public information.
https://www.facebook.com/frlouismontelongo
Just watch out for that the female "Troll" from St. Pete doesn't get in there and start a misinformation campaign along the lines we have already seen for other priests and chapels.
Fr. Fattore needs to know that the modernist diocese is actively gunning for Trads of all shades as per the orders of the modernist local Lynch man. It's been on his mind for at least 8 years and it galls him no end and with 2 or less years left in the job he has made it his priority to obliterate whatever he can before he goes. I can assure you this is entirely true and I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth !
ANYONE NOTICE THAT curioustrad is privy to Bishop Lynch's conversations that discuss "gunning for Trads of all shades" in the Tampa area??? curioustrad clearly says "I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth"
I would not trust a person who has that kind of access to Bp. Lynch. I doubt that Lynch would ever reveal that information to someone he does not trust.
Thanks for the admission that the original statement was a falsehood. I can understand the desire to preserve anonymity, however, you were under no obligation to say where you lived at all. In Trad Catholic theology we are never permitted to tell a falsehood for any reason whatsoever, but Novus Ordo theology uses "the lesser of two evils theory" all the time. For me that's a bad sign already.
As for me being the Novus Ordo infiltrator:
1/ I didn't say I had personal access to Lynch but he used to have a radio show once accessible on the web and he has spoken and written on his blog (still accessible for all the world to read) of his utter disdain for the Trad Mass on numerous occasions.
2/ I know several priests both Novus Ordo (who said the Trad Mass) and Traditional and a few lay people who have spoken with Lynch about the Trad Mass and there he has been far more forthcoming about his disdain and intent to do what he can to stem the rise of Traditionalists in his diocese.
All I can say is that I know about what I write and I can honestly say you are off to a very bad start with falsehood and "shopping around'. In the Scriptures Jesus simply tells Nathaniel to "Come and see" i.e. go to a Mass not spread rumors and gossip about validity of priests and supposed conversations with them on the internet where WE can neither verify the truth of what you claim you heard, and THEY cannot defend themselves.
Scripture is also very clear that the enemy of Truth always works in the darkness, but we are told to "Walk in the light".
1) I have admitted the wrongdoing and I apologize, but I did have to tell the posters the area where I am from in order for people to know what chapel to recommend to me.
2) ALSO I am still not sure which Trad group offers a valid priesthood or a valid Mass. My friend in the SSPX also did the same thing I am doing - RESEARCH. He never insulted me for studying the various Trad positions out there. He even recommended more Trad books for me to read during my search.
3) Accusing me of spreading rumors and gossip about the Trad priests I talked with is quite a stretch. I have never disparaged any Trad priest on this website or off of this website with any falsehoods or any insults. Also I have only stated information that I have been given by certain priests and perhaps I may have found it odd that the independent priest in Spring Hill has changed from a sede to an acceptance of the Francis papacy. Perhaps I should have left his location out of my commentary. Mea culpa. I guess I simply wonder why an independent Trad priest who believes Francis is Pope would not unite with the local bishop loyal to Francis and simply say the Latin Mass at a diocesan parish now that the Moto Propio has been issued. But then some posters on this site are saying that there are other independent priests that believe Francis is the true Pontiff and they too are remaining independent. I guess I do not understand why they remain independent unless the Moto Propio does not permit them to say the pre-1955 Mass.
4) If you think I am spreading rumors and gossip, then I ask you to look at the quote you posted above from GJC who says "Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando." C'mon!!! You are pretty good at trying to make me look evil when you yourself are full of venom.
-
For anyone who is interested in more information about the Church in Tampa send me a PM.
There is a good chance that I know Fr. Emilio Fattore better then anyone on CI.
Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando.
This link is his facebook page, so it is public information.
https://www.facebook.com/frlouismontelongo
Just watch out for that the female "Troll" from St. Pete doesn't get in there and start a misinformation campaign along the lines we have already seen for other priests and chapels.
Fr. Fattore needs to know that the modernist diocese is actively gunning for Trads of all shades as per the orders of the modernist local Lynch man. It's been on his mind for at least 8 years and it galls him no end and with 2 or less years left in the job he has made it his priority to obliterate whatever he can before he goes. I can assure you this is entirely true and I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth !
ANYONE NOTICE THAT curioustrad is privy to Bishop Lynch's conversations that discuss "gunning for Trads of all shades" in the Tampa area??? curioustrad clearly says "I once heard it straight from his horse's mouth"
I would not trust a person who has that kind of access to Bp. Lynch. I doubt that Lynch would ever reveal that information to someone he does not trust.
Thanks for the admission that the original statement was a falsehood. I can understand the desire to preserve anonymity, however, you were under no obligation to say where you lived at all. In Trad Catholic theology we are never permitted to tell a falsehood for any reason whatsoever, but Novus Ordo theology uses "the lesser of two evils theory" all the time. For me that's a bad sign already.
As for me being the Novus Ordo infiltrator:
1/ I didn't say I had personal access to Lynch but he used to have a radio show once accessible on the web and he has spoken and written on his blog (still accessible for all the world to read) of his utter disdain for the Trad Mass on numerous occasions.
2/ I know several priests both Novus Ordo (who said the Trad Mass) and Traditional and a few lay people who have spoken with Lynch about the Trad Mass and there he has been far more forthcoming about his disdain and intent to do what he can to stem the rise of Traditionalists in his diocese.
All I can say is that I know about what I write and I can honestly say you are off to a very bad start with falsehood and "shopping around'. In the Scriptures Jesus simply tells Nathaniel to "Come and see" i.e. go to a Mass not spread rumors and gossip about validity of priests and supposed conversations with them on the internet where WE can neither verify the truth of what you claim you heard, and THEY cannot defend themselves.
Scripture is also very clear that the enemy of Truth always works in the darkness, but we are told to "Walk in the light".
1) I have admitted the wrongdoing and I apologize, but I did have to tell the posters the area where I am from in order for people to know what chapel to recommend to me.
2) ALSO I am still not sure which Trad group offers a valid priesthood or a valid Mass. My friend in the SSPX also did the same thing I am doing - RESEARCH. He never insulted me for studying the various Trad positions out there. He even recommended more Trad books for me to read during my search.
3) Accusing me of spreading rumors and gossip about the Trad priests I talked with is quite a stretch. I have never disparaged any Trad priest on this website or off of this website with any falsehoods or any insults. Also I have only stated information that I have been given by certain priests and perhaps I may have found it odd that the independent priest in Spring Hill has changed from a sede to an acceptance of the Francis papacy. Perhaps I should have left his location out of my commentary. Mea culpa. I guess I simply wonder why an independent Trad priest who believes Francis is Pope would not unite with the local bishop loyal to Francis and simply say the Latin Mass at a diocesan parish now that the Moto Propio has been issued. But then some posters on this site are saying that there are other independent priests that believe Francis is the true Pontiff and they too are remaining independent. I guess I do not understand why they remain independent unless the Moto Propio does not permit them to say the pre-1955 Mass.
4) If you think I am spreading rumors and gossip, then I ask you to look at the quote you posted above from GJC who says "Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando." C'mon!!! You are pretty good at trying to make me look evil when you yourself are full of venom.
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As for the veracity of (3)
3) (...)I have never disparaged any Trad priest on this website or off of this website with any falsehoods or any insults. (...)
Check out your own 4th point:
4) If you think I am spreading rumors and gossip, then I ask you to look at the quote you posted above from GJC who says "Stay clear of the witchcraft, alien, vampire fan Louis Montelongo in Orlando." C'mon!!! You are pretty good at trying to make me look evil when you yourself are full of venom.
By wicked oversight on my part the rumor was not edited out by myself but you actually allude to it - I did not. You are spreading malicious libel in a public forum.
Rather than "prayerfully" considering the Trad options in your area (as you claim) it seems you hang out judgments in the wind to see if anything comes 'blowin' along and sure enough someone slams one of the clergy you mentioned and then you repeat it all over again.
I think I know your game !
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So where do I turn for a valid Latin Mass??? I live between Tampa and Orlando.
BTW (from personal experience) the questioner lives in St. Petersburg so we have a problem with the location given.... (HINT: St. Pete is not between Orlando and Tampa)
Ya, I suppose many CathInfo readers here know as much about the geography of central Florida, as I once knew about where to look for Winona in Minnesota.
BTW, I am not an enemy infiltrator. And yes I do live in St. Pete.
Well, it's [expletives deleted] about time, after your starter-posting, falsely claiming residence, had attracted 52 reply-postings, albeit in an amazingly brief 48 hours.
Indeed, last night I was waiting for a convincing refutation by 'SeekerOfTruth' about the accusation that he/she had posted a false claim about residence. Because without one, I would've been left with some really unflattering conclusions about 'SeekerOfTruth'. Let me just write that when I make a good-faith effort to be helpful to a specific person, that person risks a pointedly unpleasant response if I discover that my time has been deliberately wasted.
As for my statement about living between Tampa and Orlando, I probably should have said Tampa Bay area, but I wrote what I wrote specifically because I did not want to give my exact location out because I myself do not trust the Modernists that might be on this site.
So you plainly lied, instead of using well-established or well-enough-defined regional names that would've been truthful without being overly "exact", e.g.:
• "central Florida" (small "c", because with capital "C", by local usage, it would exclude the Tampa Bay Area), or
• "west-central Florida" (which extends beyond the Tampa Bay Area, although arguably no farther east than the Polk Co./Osceola Co. border, thus excluding metro Orlando).
Seeking a valid Traditional Catholic Mass .... Are there any out there?
I can understand the desire to preserve anonymity, however, you were under no obligation to say where you lived at all.
Ummm, that's "no obligation" only if you think it's fair to waste the time of many helpful CathInfo readers, to whom the title of the starter-posting gave no clue at all that most CathInfo readers are irrelevant to inquiries about the Mass that 'SeekerOfTruth' claims to seek, because they live hundreds or thousands of miles away.
'SeekerOfTruth'--and all others posting similar inquiries in CathInfo from time to time--should include a recognizable regional name in the title of the starter-posting. Or if really hunkered down in fear of Novus Ordo special operatives storming in through one's locked doors, just the name of the whole state or province. That's instead of wasting precious title characters with a totally uninformative afterthought, i.e.: ".... Are there any out there?".
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So where do I turn for a valid Latin Mass??? I live between Tampa and Orlando.
BTW (from personal experience) the questioner lives in St. Petersburg so we have a problem with the location given.... (HINT: St. Pete is not between Orlando and Tampa)
Ya, I suppose many CathInfo readers here know as much about the geography of central Florida, as I once knew about where to look for Winona in Minnesota.
BTW, I am not an enemy infiltrator. And yes I do live in St. Pete.
Well, it's [expletives deleted] about time, after your starter-posting, falsely claiming residence, had attracted 52 reply-postings, albeit in an amazingly brief 48 hours.
Indeed, last night I was waiting for a convincing refutation by 'SeekerOfTruth' about the accusation that he/she had posted a false claim about residence. Because without one, I would've been left with some really unflattering conclusions about 'SeekerOfTruth'. Let me just write that when I make a good-faith effort to be helpful to a specific person, that person risks a pointedly unpleasant response if I discover that my time has been deliberately wasted.
As for my statement about living between Tampa and Orlando, I probably should have said Tampa Bay area, but I wrote what I wrote specifically because I did not want to give my exact location out because I myself do not trust the Modernists that might be on this site.
So you plainly lied, instead of using well-established or well-enough-defined regional names that would've been truthful without being overly "exact", e.g.:
• "central Florida" (small "c", because with capital "C", by local usage, it would exclude the Tampa Bay Area), or
• "west-central Florida" (which extends beyond the Tampa Bay Area, although arguably no farther east than the Polk Co./Osceola Co. border, thus excluding metro Orlando).
Seeking a valid Traditional Catholic Mass .... Are there any out there?
I can understand the desire to preserve anonymity, however, you were under no obligation to say where you lived at all.
Ummm, that's "no obligation" only if you think it's fair to waste the time of many helpful CathInfo readers, to whom the title of the starter-posting gave no clue at all that most CathInfo readers are irrelevant to inquiries about the Mass that 'SeekerOfTruth' claims to seek, because they live hundreds or thousands of miles away.
'SeekerOfTruth'--and all others posting similar inquiries in CathInfo from time to time--should include a recognizable regional name in the title of the starter-posting. Or if really hunkered down in fear of Novus Ordo special operatives storming in through one's locked doors, just the name of the whole state or province. That's instead of wasting precious title characters with a totally uninformative afterthought, i.e.: ".... Are there any out there?".
I think we need a lot more like this ! ROFL
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Except for the name of the book on the various Trad positions by Griff Ruby which was kindly given to me by one of the posters, I can clearly see that many of the posters on this site are a waste of my time. Some people are either overly paranoid, or they are purposefully trying to twist things to create fear among the Trads. For those overly paranoid I believe that the Rosary prayed with True Devotion will eventually give you the peace you truly need. For the purposeful twisters that wish to spew out hatred and distrust, then I say that I will pray for your pitiful souls.
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Except for the name of the book on the various Trad positions by Griff Ruby which was kindly given to me by one of the posters, I can clearly see that many of the posters on this site are a waste of my time. Some people are either overly paranoid, or they are purposefully trying to twist things to create fear among the Trads. For those overly paranoid I believe that the Rosary prayed with True Devotion will eventually give you the peace you truly need. For the purposeful twisters that wish to spew out hatred and distrust, then I say that I will pray for your pitiful souls.
True Devotion - yes indeed !
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Some people are either overly paranoid, or they are purposefully trying to twist things to create fear among the Trads.
As for my statement about living between Tampa and Orlando, I probably should have said Tampa Bay area, but I wrote what I wrote specifically because I did not want to give my exact location out because I myself do not trust the Modernists that might be on this site.
Indeed, there is certainly enough paranoia to go around.
Given what the Modernists can actually do to a traditional Catholic in the United States, I often wonder why anyone fears them. What can happen other than a potential denial of Conciliar sacraments--and why would that matter?
Yes, indeed. There is a lot of paranoia and some people really do purposefully try to create fear among traditional Catholics. I think SeekerOfTruth can count himself among them.
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seekeroftruth - The sspv/cspv offer masses in Florida. Click on the icon/second photo from the top in this link(http://congregationofstpiusv.net/BishopKelly.html) and view the docuмentation of Bishop Kelly's consecration. Thuc trads(illyricuмsacrum for a perfect example won't even acknowledge that these photos exist) plant seeds of doubt about his +Kelly's consecration when there are none.
And, if you have not read the sacred and the profane by +Kelly, do read it - http://congregationofstpiusv.net/
As far as Brooksville goes(Sanborn), amongst thuc trad lines, Gerhard de laurier's line(sanborn) is considered the more dubious of the lines. In this video(towards the end, but I really recommend watching it all) Fr. Jenkins talks about the de lauriers consecration(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKWkBlBgHio). I am pretty sure even arch schuckardtite(cmri) "ambrose" from this forum considered de lauriers consecration dubious.
Also, Thuc line sedes believe and teach(indirectly) that they are the new hierarchy(this was what Thuc's handlers Dr(s). Hiller and Heller wanted - to "reestablish the heirarchy"). Here is link revealing how Pivarunis indirectly vouches for this(how these thuc garage bishops have "authority") - http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Fouhy-formerly-Married-in-COMMUNION-with-CMRI-Scandal. Let's not forget to mention that this fr. fouhy speaking for pivarunis in the video left the priesthood and got married then divorced and came back to become a thuc bishop.
If you are not pleased with/sure about the sspv, that is perfectly fine(I am not entirely pleased), but I strongly recommend that you stay far away from the thuc line. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Watch that video!
This post is old but is germane to searches still going on today.
And it testifies to the excellence of Fr. William Jenkins, someone who has managed to create confidence in me through his testimony on videos I've watched. This one topic he is hounded about over a long period, and there are two more recent videos on it, one main one, and a follow-up answering questions from the WCB audience (What Catholics Believe, a series on youtube).
He is hounded because his former compatriots, Bp. Sanborn, and Fr. Cekada, changed minds about Abp. Thuc.
This video does indeed touch not just Abp. Thuc, but several other third rail bishop topics. Very good video.
Another site that requires attention if one is interested in CMRI, history of it, would be jmjsite.com as the man in back of it was ordained a priest and later resigned his ordination (or whatever is the term) realizing it was invalid (Bp. Schuckhardt). He spent the rest of his life, still living, placing his considerable knowledge about traditional Church canon law into a format others may learn from-but you have to be willing to listen to a lot of tapes. The series is 'Who is Right and Who is Wrong.' In the audio section on that site. I've since come to realize it is a hard core position held, one which is too extreme for me, as it seems to conclude there are no valid options whatsoever.
That's why I am mentioning it as others with that p o v might like to listen. The site is also noteworthy because it has lots of really good audio, traditional and wonderfully inspirational audio.
I wrote to priests at traditio.com Ask the Fathers, asking about jurisdiction and apostolic succession. The answer included the phrase 'reduction ad absurdum.' I think readers can understand the meaning. The stand is: yes, there are many places today where one may find valid sacraments. I don't know whether I agree with 'many' but I have come to be relaxed, finally, and much more optimistic than formerly, that I will indeed be able to find what I seek. For me, the SSPV rings true. This doesn't mean for everyone it will of course. But of course, graces are being given today to many people so that almost each one can find a place to assist I believe.
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These wackos who act like there are no valid bishops or priests are so far out there. They completely overlook or are ignorant to the Byzantine and Alexandrian liturgies that are beside the Latin Traditions (and valid episcopal consecrations) and the many valid bishops and priest ordained or consecrated in these Liturgical traditions.
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I just want to provide a follow up to the inquiries hear about Sacred Heart in Orlando.
It's a small church with a tight knit Latino community, who are very kind and welcoming. Where I take issue is that they heavily imply that they are Sedevacantist, or at the very least certain Francis is an anti pope. However, Bishop Montelongo seems to tailor his answer of the Papacy questions to whoever he is speaking. Several have told me he has expressed certainty in Sede Vacante, to Benedict XVI still being Pope, to Francis. The associate pastor whose name escapes me at this moment seems to be a faithful, and efficient attendant to the congregation, but reflects what you would expect from his leadership.
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St Petersburg and Tampa basically constitute one very large metropolitan area, probably about 10 miles apart, if that. Orlando is about 100 miles to the northeast of TSP, give or take.
When my son and I went to Orlando in 2017, we stayed in Davenport, west of Orlando just inside the Polk County line, and IIRC it was about a 90-minute drive to Clearwater (the aquarium there is a lot of hype, very little to see, and they take your car captive and threaten to charge $75 to get it back unless you buy an overpriced aquarium ticket, no changing your mind once you're parked). We went to Bishop Montelongo's chapel, shabby part of town (I just mention this so nobody will be shocked if they go there), reverent Mass (recorded chant during the canon missae), I didn't get to talk to anyone. You get the impression they are doing the best they can with what they have.
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As far as Brooksville goes(Sanborn), amongst thuc trad lines, Gerhard de laurier's line(sanborn) is considered the more dubious of the lines.
This is a flat out lie, and, while I have a great deal of respect for Father Jenkins, SSPV have been just plain lying about the +Thuc lines for decades now.
As for the Mendez/Kelly situation, the photos prove absolutely nothing. What's at issue is that Mendez had suffered a stroke shortly before the Kelly consecration, and his family testify that he was extremely confused afterwards and that he didn't recognize them. If there's a question about anyone's "mental state," it is NOT about that of +Thuc, but about +Mendez ... but SSPV have been lying about the "mental state of" +Thuc forever now. It's disgraceful, and constitutes calumny against +Thuc and also the bishops, priests, and faithful who are associated with those lines.
Archbishop Thuc had advanced degress from Rome and taught at a seminary. He was fluent in many languages. There are many people who have testified (a couple whom I know personally for for whose veracity I can vouch), that Archbishop Thuc never showed the least signs of dementia (unlike +Mendez). When +Thuc was staying with Bishop Vezelis, after the +Carmona/+Zamora and +des Lauriers consecrations, he would be sitting at table and switching back and forth between languages and not skipping a beat, keeping track of multiple separate conversations at the same time. He was very adept at Latin and offered Mass with great reverence and following the rubrics with great precision. His autobiography, also written after these consecrations, demonstrates an extremely lucid mind (in addition to great piety and reverence), as he was recalling from memory the names of obscure people from his past (a cook and the names of his family members, and many others, drivers, etc.). He had a much better memory than I do. While it's clear that he made mistakes in terms of a couple that he consecrated, he denies ever having consecrated the worst offenders. There are man people who have no issues lying about having received consecration from +Thuc. But poor judgment or imprudence says nothing about whether he had the mental capacity to validly consecrate. He simply needed to know what the Church intended by a consecration, have intended to do it, and to perform the Rite. There is absolutely zero evidence that his capacity of doing so can be called into any doubt whatsoever. Bishop Kelly completely fabricated the notion that two competent witnesses are required to verify the validity of episcopal consecration. Father Cekada completely shredded his dishonesty, where Bishop Kelly sometimes removed parts of quotations with ellipses that undercut his point. One of The Nine testified later (I heard it from his mouth) that after Father Cekada had presented his information regarding their validity to the group, that then-Father Kelly responded along the lines of, "We can't say they're valid, because people might go to them." Bishops were regularly consecrated clandestinely behind the Iron Curtain, with the authorization of Pius XII, and their consecrations were held to be undisputedly valid by the Church.
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This is a flat out lie, and, while I have a great deal of respect for Father Jenkins, SSPV have been just plain lying about the +Thuc lines for decades now.
As for the Mendez/Kelly situation, the photos prove absolutely nothing. What's at issue is that Mendez had suffered a stroke shortly before the Kelly consecration, and his family testify that he was extremely confused afterwards and that he didn't recognize them. If there's a question about anyone's "mental state," it is NOT about that of +Thuc, but about +Mendez ... but SSPV have been lying about the "mental state of" +Thuc forever now. It's disgraceful, and constitutes calumny against +Thuc and also the bishops, priests, and faithful who are associated with those lines.
Right. +Thuc was of completely sound mind
https://youtu.be/8qqrMnzrED8
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God Bless Archbishop Thuc.
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God Bless Archbishop Thuc.
Archbishop's autobiography is very moving. Not only does it obviously come from a man of sound mind, but it's rather moving, reading like a cross between St. Augustine's Confessions and St. Therese's Story of a Soul.
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Archbishop's autobiography is very moving. Not only does it obviously come from a man of sound mind, but it's rather moving, reading like a cross between St. Augustine's Confessions and St. Therese's Story of a Soul.
What's the title of it?