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Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (35.3%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
6 (17.6%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (26.5%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (2.9%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 28

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Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 26901 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #220 on: July 23, 2020, 02:06:10 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 08:56:39 AM
If someone sincerely believes this and would do those things upon being proved incorrect, I'm not going to try to dissaude him from SVism, until he admits he would become an Indult Traditionalist, if Svism were proved false. SVism is easily proved false, btw.

There are two rock solid arguments against it, both 62 year SVism and single Pope Svism. But I won't go there till sedes get this right.
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I feel like I am in fourth grade again and we can't go out to recess until some kid can recite his three times multiplication table without making a mistake. :laugh1:
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #221 on: July 23, 2020, 02:11:28 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on July 23, 2020, 01:41:15 PM
Why did you respond? You don't consider yourself a sedevacantist.    

No, I have a more nuanced position, but for the purposes of his poll question, I would lump myself in there also based on the principles I hold.  He used the generic term "sede-ism", which most of the R&R use to lump all variants of the position together.

I've called myself a sede-doubtist, but I'm a sede-doubtist because I agree with the sedevacantist principle that it is not possible for the Magisterium to fail in this way.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2020, 02:21:05 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 08:56:39 AM
There are two rock solid arguments against it, both 62 year SVism and single Pope Svism. But I won't go there till sedes get this right.

You just keep reasserting this claim without ever having proved it.

I consider a 62-year period of sedevacante to be problematic, but not theologically impossible.

I consider a defection of the Magisterium to be theologically impossible.

Consequently, I find the prospects of the Magisterium defecting to far outweigh the difficulty posed by a 62-year interregnum.

Again, this is a non-issue for a sedeprivationist type of position, or the Father Chazal position.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2020, 03:58:52 PM »
XavierSem (by the way, are you the same Nishant who used to post here as user "Nishant"?) is missing the forest for the trees.  It's been said here before by others that if it were just a matter of a few doctrinal disagreements/ambiguities/difficulties then there would be no SSPX, no CMRI, no SSPV, no FSSP, no traditional movement whatsoever.  But the problems with V2 didn't immediately precipitate the trad movement.  It wasn't until the new "Mass" came out that it finally dawned on some Catholics that they couldn't go along with it all and that it was looking more and more like a new religion had been founded and given the title Catholic.  I have to admit that Francis Schuckardt was already calling it a sede vacante in 1967 so it wasn't like everyone figured it out at the same time.  It was just a gradual realization that the Novus Ordo wasn't Catholic.  And then people tried to figure out how best to explain it.  The best explanation I have heard so far is some form of sede vacante (SV or SP).  The idea that a pope could compel people to engage in non-Catholic worship is not credible.  But now with Frank it is even worse.  The "pope" himself worshipped pagan gods in the Vatican.  He is in open apostasy and still the Novus Ordo and R&R people cling to him.  It just goes to show what will happen when you believe that a heretic can be the Vicar of Christ.  Frank is the new Simon the Magician.
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Offline Argentino

Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2020, 06:05:21 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on July 23, 2020, 09:20:58 AM
Dogmatic Sedevacantism (DS): SVism is dogma. If you don't believe it, you are in heresy!

Moderate Sedevacantism (MS): SVism is a personal opinion. The Church may confirm or reject it in future.

Ultra-Dogmatic SVism (UDS): If the "dogma" of SVism is proven incorrect, I will simply leave the Catholic Church.

Am I mistaken or are the persons here going even beyond DS to UDS? And I thought many were MSes.

What do you think of a "dogmatic fact"?  Do you understand what that is, and its import?
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