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Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

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Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 26952 times)

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Offline forlorn

Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #160 on: July 09, 2020, 09:38:40 PM »
Quote from: Argentino on July 09, 2020, 12:08:56 PM
Yes, really. What history book have you seen it written in that they considered a false claimant and his followers to be another Church?
The papal claimants all excommunicated each other. Those who are excommunicated are outside of the Church. Therefore, when one picked a pope to follow, one had to decide where the Church was, since only one claimant was the true leader of the Church and the rest weren't even in it at all. It logically follows that they were making a judgement on where the Church was, whether they were explicitly saying that or not.

The raising of the Oriflamme etc. as I brought up also indicates that people saw followers of the other claimants as outside of the Church.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #161 on: July 10, 2020, 03:07:23 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on July 09, 2020, 10:18:20 AM
This is why, imo, good Bishops like e.g. +Athanasius, +Vigano etc should be supported and worked with. The Holy Spirit is working through them, and we know that, according to the Divine Promise, the Charism of Truth remains in the Catholic Hierarchy forever.

Do you agree with +Athanasius and +Vigano that there are errors in Vatican II?  I believe that you used to be in favor of "hermeneutic of continuity".

And, then, which of them do you agree with, since they're at odds here?  +Athanasius holds that the erroneous statements need to be reformed or amended, whereas +Vigano holds that the entire Council is polluted and must be cast aside.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #162 on: July 10, 2020, 03:09:56 PM »
Giving it a bit of thought, if +Schneider and +Vigano are in good standing with the Church while holding that there are errors in Vatican II, then what is the obstacle for SSPX joining back in full communion with Rome?

Part of the obstacle beforehand had been that the SSPX had to accept all of Vatican II, at least by applying a hermeneutic of continuity.  Here we have two bishops in good standing agreeing with them that there are in fact errors in Vatican II (they probably have the same errors in mind that the SSPX does).

So either +Schneider and +Vigano need to get the boot, or else the SSPX needs to be let back in while being allowed to hold that there are errors in V2.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2020, 03:12:33 PM »
Quote from: Argentino on July 09, 2020, 12:08:56 PM
Yes, really. What history book have you seen it written in that they considered a false claimant and his followers to be another Church?

You're completely befuddled and missing the entire point.  Some most likely did consider the others to be in a different Church.  Others realized that they could be formally within the Church while materially outside.

But it remained true that people wondered where OBJECTIVELY the Church was, not merely formally.  OBJECTIVELY, subjection to the actual objective pope is necessary to be within the Church.
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Offline Argentino

Re: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2020, 04:10:11 PM »
Quote from: forlorn on July 09, 2020, 09:38:40 PM
The papal claimants all excommunicated each other. Those who are excommunicated are outside of the Church. Therefore, when one picked a pope to follow, one had to decide where the Church was, since only one claimant was the true leader of the Church and the rest weren't even in it at all. It logically follows that they were making a judgement on where the Church was, whether they were explicitly saying that or not.

The raising of the Oriflamme etc. as I brought up also indicates that people saw followers of the other claimants as outside of the Church.

It's been a long time since the so-called Western Schism. No books have stated any such thing, which shows you are doing your own reasoning and claiming an historical fact that simply was not.
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