Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?

Become an R&R Traditionalist
12 (35.3%)
Become an Indult Traditionalist
6 (17.6%)
Become an NO Cath Conservative
9 (26.5%)
Become a very liberal Catholic
1 (2.9%)
Cease to practice Catholicism
6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: Sedevacantists:if you were convinced sede-ism was wrong, what would you do next?  (Read 27125 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Uhm, he (and his predecessors) are clearly teaching Magisterially.  Their teaching is at least "merely authentic" Magisterium.
I am sad to see this thread has become mostly people talking past each other.

So here's an example from Amoris Laetitiae (#300). Sedes tend to say Amoris Laetitia teaches heresies, but beyond arguing whether there is or isn't heresy, shouldn't one consider how and to what extent something is conveyed?

Quote
If we consider the immense variety of concrete situations such as those I have mentioned, it is understandable that neither the Synod nor this Exhortation could be expected to provide a new set of general rules, canonical in nature and applicable to all cases. What is possible is simply a renewed encouragement to undertake a responsible personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases, one which would recognize that, since “the degree of responsibility is not equal in all cases”,335 the consequences or effects of a rule need not necessarily always be the same.336
What exactly is magisterially taught to us here? There are no new rules, just an encouragement.

No.  I just added a citation above.  It's because, IF (and it's highly debated) he did sign the formulae, he did so under duress, and it was not a free act (akin to the Paul VI was being blackmailed over sodomy position).

It was not an act of the Magisterium period.  At best it was a personal act.  Whatever he signed was in no way being taught to the Universal Church.
Same thing with Vatican II: 
Whatever is novel is ipso facto relegated to the level of the authentic magisterium, and to be equated with the public pronunciations of a private doctor.
That these counterfeit teachings use the organs of the Church to diffuse them adds to the deception, but is ultimately irrelevant.
What is relevant is that just as the general hierarchy followed Liberius (despite his teaching being non-binding), so too have they followed the conciliar popes (who have not lost their offices because of these heretical teachings, because they are opinions of private doctors publicly diffused).
If you want to then retort that a heretic cannot be pope, we are back to the same old Bellarmine/Cajetan/JST opinions that an heretical pope does not lose his office without the intervention of the Church vs the false sede interpretation of Bellarmine which pretends he loses it ipso facto even before the Church pronounces the defection.


Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Archbishop himself articulates the problem this poses for indefectibility, and this consideration is what left him open to the sedevacantist hypothesis ...
Quote
“…a grave problem confronts the conscience and the faith of all Catholics since the beginning of Paul VI’s pontificate: how can a pope who is truly successor of Peter, to whom the assistance of the Holy Ghost has been promised, preside over the most radical and far-reaching destruction of the Church ever known, in so short a time, beyond what any heresiarch has ever achieved?” (Le Figaro, August 4, 1976)

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Same thing with Vatican II:

You guys are utterly hopeless.  You are prepared to cast aspersions on and sully the reputation of Holy Mother Church to save the likes of Bergoglio.  Shame on you.  You basically claim that Holy Mother Church has become a whore.

Archbishop himself articulates the problem this poses for indefectibility, and this consideration is what left him open to the sedevacantist hypothesis ...
Nonsense: 
You invent advocates and sympathizers left and right for sedevacantism because you intuit the weakness of the position.
The fact remains that there were only 2 instances in 25 years of thoroughly recorded and publicized sermons, conferences, articles, books, and interviews in which ABL (rightly or wrongly) seems to acknowledge the theoretical possibility of sedevacantism.
Both those instances followed upon the heels of extremely scandalous Roman acts, but you habitually fail to impute any significance to the fact that ABL never backed those statements later, and certainly never supported sedevacantism habitually (and in fact condemned the position officially).
The proper hermeneutic in understanding the mind of an author is that the exception does not disprove the rule (ie., it cannot be used to contradict his normal, general, and overwhelmingly common position regarding sedevacantism).
It is therefore dishonest to attempt to magnify these two particular instances as though they evince a general tolerance (or even sympathy or promotion) of sedevacantism.